Stellaris Dev Diary #250 - Elevating Civilization

[kwheeler]

That's... not a thing, at least not outside of mods. All systems in the game are connected by hyperlanes, with exactly two exceptions, one of which is connected through a wormhole, and the other is connected through L-gates, which wouldn't be destroyable.

And neither of which really includes an NPC empire (aside from that one L-gate outcome, kinda).

Maybe I'm misremembering then, or it's a modded origin. I have this fuzzy memory that if you started with the Gateway Origin, there would be possibly event chains that involved a single gateway as the only connecting point to other systems? But I concede my memory may be faulty here.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Maybe I'm misremembering then, or it's a modded origin. I have this fuzzy memory that if you started with the Gateway Origin, there would be possibly event chains that involved a single gateway as the only connecting point to other systems? But I concede my memory may be faulty here.

There was a mod for that origin. Gateway Origin itself is a totally normal start that happens to have a gateway in your home system.

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

There was a mod for that origin. Gateway Origin itself is a totally normal start that happens to have a gateway in your home system.

That's not really true. There is an event chain tied to the origin.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

The point of mega-world districts like Ringworlds isn't the output, but the sprawl efficiency. By providing 10 jobs a district, you're paying the sprawl costs- in unity and science cost increases- of 5 normal farmworld districts. At the point of the game where Ringworlds are in play, output per pop is worse far less than the science costs for repeatables.

Unless you're running Fanatic Pacifist/Egalitarian maximum sprawl reduction, then the ring world is barely better for a large increased cost in pops.

Let's say you need 612 base output (~1500 food after modifiers).

That's one full ring world. You need 102 ring world farmers, 10 entertainers, 10 districts, and 1 world. That's around 79 sprawl (assuming you have a max level governor and the domination/harmony trees and psionic theory). Plus, you need another 5ish pops working refinery jobs to support the districts, and 4 more miners in 2 districts to support them, which I'm not counting. That would be another 9ish sprawl (the refiners alone take up half a planet).

Alternatively, you could have farmers on a planet. 73 farmers (need fewer because they eat less of the output), 8 entertainers, 34 districts (including buildings), and 3 planets (assuming you pick the ones with lots of deposits). That's 98 sprawl. And you need fewer consumer goods to support them.

You're spending 20 pops to reduce sprawl by 19. If you instead just had 15 more researchers/bureaucrats and support, you'd be ahead. Unless you had 20k+ research with 100 size, you'd get more from those pops working researcher jobs. With 1100 size, you'd need 40k+ research for the ring world to be better.

If you have Imperial Prerogative, the difference shrinks by 10, and you need an even more enormous research::size ratio for it to be better.

And Void Dwellers just get screwed at every turn, as they both need more sprawl and have lower per-pop output for mining/generator habitats.

Plus, this whole comparison is assuming that the planets cease to exist if you don't have farmers on them. In reality, the choice is between using the ring world for research and the planets to farm or using the planets for something else and the ring world to farm. I'd pick the farming planets, where my pops are 33% more effective and the research ring world, where I can cram in 10 researchers per district/2 gas instead of 6, every time.

Fanatic pacifists get better ratios, but it's still 35ish sprawl for 20 pops. Hive minds, by contrast, can do all the farming on one hive world (or just have 0 sprawl from colonies) and get 50% more jobs per district, so they actually have lower sprawl from the regular planet as well as needing fewer pops.

I'm not even going to touch the strange comparison (for clerks) that assumes you're building ring worlds at the same time that your pops are living on worlds with less than 50% habitability (which is what you'd need for the 3 amenities per pop to be useful on a trade planet).

 

[DeanTheDull]

Unless you're running Fanatic Pacifist/Egalitarian maximum sprawl reduction, then the ring world is barely better for a large increased cost in pops.

Let's say you need 612 base output (~1500 food after modifiers).

That's one full ring world. You need 102 ring world farmers, 10 entertainers, 10 districts, and 1 world. That's around 79 sprawl (assuming you have a max level governor and the domination/harmony trees and psionic theory). Plus, you need another 5ish pops working refinery jobs to support the districts, and 4 more miners in 2 districts to support them, which I'm not counting. That would be another 9ish sprawl (the refiners alone take up half a planet).

Alternatively, you could have farmers on a planet. 73 farmers (need fewer because they eat less of the output), 8 entertainers, 34 districts (including buildings), and 3 planets (assuming you pick the ones with lots of deposits). That's 98 sprawl. And you need fewer consumer goods to support them.

You're spending 20 pops to reduce sprawl by 19. If you instead just had 15 more researchers/bureaucrats and support, you'd be ahead. Unless you had 20k+ research with 100 size, you'd get more from those pops working researcher jobs. With 1100 size, you'd need 40k+ research for the ring world to be better.

If you have Imperial Prerogative, the difference shrinks by 10, and you need an even more enormous research::size ratio for it to be better.

And Void Dwellers just get screwed at every turn, as they both need more sprawl and have lower per-pop output for mining/generator habitats.

Plus, this whole comparison is assuming that the planets cease to exist if you don't have farmers on them. In reality, the choice is between using the ring world for research and the planets to farm or using the planets for something else and the ring world to farm. I'd pick the farming planets, where my pops are 33% more effective and the research ring world, where I can cram in 10 researchers per district/2 gas instead of 6, every time.

You're posting a lot of assumptions that not only can easily go the other way, while changing standards on build assumptions mid-way that void the standards of comparison previously used, while missing pretty common contexts.

Yes, you can get 40k+ research, and empires that go well over 1100 in size, and well over 1500 in pops. Yes, you can abandon the rest of your worlds to not have them as an option- and doing so will likely be optimal to some degree in Overlord, even as it's already an optimization for pop-farming. Yes, there is an end-game incentive to have a defensible core rather than distributed upkeep worlds across the empire if you're trying to minimize. Yes, you would want to have Ringworlds as science worlds- but this is not instead of ring farms, because you would be doing both by the time you you turned to farm worlds.

Whatever counter-argument you think you're making, you really aren't.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Yes, you can get 40k+ research, and empires that go well over 1100 in size, and well over 1500 in pops. Yes, you can abandon the rest of your worlds to not have them as an option- and doing so will likely be optimal to some degree in Overlord, even as it's already an optimization for pop-farming. Yes, there is an end-game incentive to have a defensible core rather than distributed upkeep worlds across the empire if you're trying to minimize.

I think you're misunderstanding the way the ratio for size goes. As your research gets higher, the relative value of the researchers falls, yes. But as your size increases, the value of the sprawl reduction also falls. If you're an empire with 1100 size and 40k research, you'll break even on planet vs. ring world. But if you're larger, the planet freeing up researchers is better. Or if your research is lower, the planet is also better. 1100 size with 40k research is an exceptionally tall build. I've only ever gotten that ratio with mostly ascended worlds, running Fanatic Pacifist, and after 20 or 30 repeatables to pull down the number of pops doing worker jobs. If you're literally any other ethics, you're not getting anywhere close to that, and the researchers are better by a long shot.

Also keep in mind that before this change, ring worlds were much better for sprawl and had roughly equal per pop output, as they should be (they're an end game thing after all). Now we're arguing about whether or not they might be better if you take a particular set of ethics and civics at the very end of the game if you've ascended enough worlds. No matter how you slice it, that's a huge hit. If ring worlds aren't the clear winners because of the sprawl reduction from better districts, then something is out of whack. It takes ~25 years and 50000 alloys to build 4 of them with Architectural Renaissance. They need to be worth it.

Edit: You're misunderstanding -> I think you're misunderstanding. Also, worth noting: if you have better than 2.5x modifiers for your researchers (which you probably should), the break even point is even higher. I gave a fairly conservative estimate of both the research each one would produce and the number of pops they would need to support them.

 

[LucyCM]

Has the ability to customize sector borders been added since there's now such a large incentive to create vassals?

 

[HFY]

+ Ring Buildings look cool
+ Wormhole FTL looks cool
+ Tree of Life looks interesting, but the vassal isn't guaranteed to have Agri-Drones?

<> Kinda meh on the science holding. +9% research speed is not much, especially not compared to the research production bonus I could be getting by using those 3 science ships to assist research.

<> Don't feel like planet sensors are worth anything, not when Starbases have +1 sensor range by default and are more likely to be on the borders where sensor range might matter.

- Ring Modules look defenseless against Proton Launchers, which is already the meta, so now it's just +10% more of the same meta?

- If the Ring Hangar Modules stack up with Starbase Hangar Modules for AI pathing, then it's going to be even easier to steer attackers into dragons (which is funny but might not be great gameplay).

 

[Eladrin]

If an empire with the Teachers of the Shroud origin can't take the Mind over Matter Ascension Perk, which provides Psi Corps building, did they get the Psi Corps building by another way ?

After researching Psionic Theory (which is a guaranteed research option for them), Telepathy can show up as a random society tech.

maybe the new game director dislike the spoilers .

I try not to spoil stories so you can experience them, but these DDs are also pretty long and Nivarias is doing videos on them already.

there is basically no reason to give territory to Scholariums unless you want to reduce your empire sprawl from systems, and it doesn't seem in character for the science nerd vassals that can't build a military to own huge tracts of space.

They'll quickly run out of places for their discoveries if stuck in one system.

does the catipolt only work from within it's own system?

Yes, you must be in orbit of the catapult to yeet the fleet.

<Defenses rings are too weak and die instantly>

Iggy sent me this while giggling madly.

Should be able to hold off attackers until help can arrive via the relay network.

<Scholarium holding OP / too easy to have a dozen microvassals because of the ease of getting rid of divided patronage>

Possibly. Feedback is appreciated.

All numbers and previews are still subject to change.

 

[Tamwin5]

Possibly. Feedback is appreciated.

All numbers and previews are still subject to change.

Any ability to get an empire wide percentage modifier off of a single system is going to have balance/scaling concerns. It might be interesting to just flip the entire building around: it gives the subject +3% monthly research production, with additional production per science ship, and generates a bunch of loyalty. Alternatively, it could function like the other ministries, and give -1 research from researchers and +2 research to the overlord per (although you probably couldn't have the science ships with that aspect).

I think it might be interesting if parking the science ships was more for the benefit of leveling up scientists. More of an academy for your leaders, then an empire wide research buff.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Has the ability to customize sector borders been added since there's now such a large incentive to create vassals?

If you have enough construction ships, you can customize sectors for vassals without needing any extra influence already. Deconstruct the outposts you need to isolate your soon-to-be-vassal sector's systems and queue up replacement outposts before you lose control of the system. It will only cost alloys, since they're still your systems, and the construction price is locked in as soon as the construction ship starts on the task. Then, when you lose control of the systems (and while the replacement starbases are still building) make a new vassal from your newly trimmed sector.

You can pretty easily make single sector vassals this way. You can't split up two adjacent systems with habitable planets, though, since you can't delete your outposts in systems with habitable planets.

 

[Tamwin5]

If you have enough construction ships, you can customize sectors for vassals without needing any extra influence already. Deconstruct the outposts you need to isolate your soon-to-be-vassal sector's systems and queue up replacement outposts before you lose control of the system. It will only cost alloys, since they're still your systems, and the construction price is locked in as soon as the construction ship starts on the task. Then, when you lose control of the systems (and while the replacement starbases are still building) make a new vassal from your newly trimmed sector.

You can pretty easily make single sector vassals this way. You can't split up two adjacent systems with habitable planets, though, since you can't delete your outposts in systems with habitable planets.

Does that require doing it while paused, or can you do it even with time moving if you are quick enough? basically wondering if this is SP only or viable in MP too.

 

[FleetingRain]

@Eladrin , could you change the "Approx. Jobs Upkeep" tooltip to "Approx. Jobs Upkeep for Subject", so it matches with the "Production for Overlord" line?

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Does that require doing it while paused, or can you do it even with time moving if you are quick enough? basically wondering if this is SP only or viable in MP too.

Paused only, unfortunately, unless you're playing on Slowest (not likely). It disappears the next day, so you'd have to be lightning fast.

 

[Bezborg]

This seems like Voidborne is missing out. Orbital Rings buff planets but what about habitat locked Empires?

To be honest, I think these orbital rings should have replaced habitats completely

 

[SirBlackAxe]

Absolutely love the concept of orbital rings.

• Can an orbital ring be built around an inhabited moon?
• Do they completely suppress piracy in their system the same way an upgraded starbase does? What about collecting trade value?
• Aesthetically speaking, I would love if the module slots for the orbital ring was a centered 2x2 square instead of an L.
• Now I want an origin that just puts all my guaranteed habitable planets in my home system, so I can make it extremely heavily fortified.
• Any chance of adding additional building or module slots to an orbital ring based on the ascension tier of the orbited planet? Or at least an increased defense platform capacity?

Could the Unbidden gain the ability to use the quantum catapult effect from their dimensional rift? I think that would help them reach their chosen nemesis and make them a bit more threatening.

Now that an Overlord ethics attraction modifier exists, could we have that effect added to the Hearts and Minds ambition and Shared Destiny (or One Vision) ascension perk?

If you're thinking "Ah, those pesky scientists couldn't possibly rebel against me." Well, that's what we made Allegiance Wars for.

Allegiance Wars involve promising to become the subject of another empire though, right? Even if you win, you're still a subject. Is there a way to get other empires to support your independence, so you can have a shot at winning an independence war?

 

[Jamaican Castle]

They'll quickly run out of places for their discoveries if stuck in one system.

I think this could use some clarification in the UI text because I totally didn't get that discoveries were one/planet. (Prospector deposits are more natural as one/planet because they're permanent deposits, I think.)

Also, is there a reason that the quantum catapult range is only most of the galaxy? It seems like it's going to lead to feel-bad moments where you placed it in just slightly the wrong spot, while still being wide enough ranged that you can't assume you're going to be able to avoid it. (Also also, can we get some kind of pre-placement display of how far the range is? Preferably showing it fully upgraded?)

 

[HFY]

Iggy sent me this while giggling madly.

Defense Platforms aren't modules though. The ring modules are worthless as defenses if you expect to engage at Ion Cannon range.

The meta -- all Neutrons, all the time -- is unchanged by that picture.

 

[ArmedPangolin]

I know that this is something from a previous dev diary but it seems a bit weird that mercenary fleets use naval capacity whilst hired when the galactic community resolution that encourages mercenary use decreases naval capacity.

 

[Eladrin]

The ring modules are worthless as defenses if you expect to engage at Ion Cannon range.

The modules add additional platform slots and increase the ring's armor and hull points.

The meta -- all Neutrons, all the time -- is unchanged by that picture.

I very much look forward to changing that in the future.