Stellaris Dev Diary #251 - All Roads Lead to Deneb IIb

[Cry_Havok]

Will there be a special event for UNE where if they take the vassal start their overlord will ask to demolish earth for a hyperspace relay (hyperspace bypass) and replace earth with a backup being studied by Rackets/Ketlings (mice)

 

[BorbiBoy]

We have finally a precedent for highly important and game changing tech naturally fluctuating into neighboring empires

I know, it looks not like much but this is extremely exciting if this could go even further in the future. Its a way more realistic approach to science and technology!

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Now we are talking! The hyper relays are almost certainly the most important addition to the game since the shift away from 3 FTL types. It has been unbearably slow to play the game ever since and the ability to build roads is the first real improvement on that front.

I'm also really happy to see that new origin, as it would give a method for my old beloved wormhole start to have a way around being boxed in. It's no wild space or space oceans, but I bet it will become my prefered origin going forwards.

 

[SkyGuy7617]

yes, but overlords have multiple subjects.

Overlord A
Subject B (MegaCorp)
Subject C

With this Subject B can build branch offices in Subject Cs realm - unless Overlord A is a MegaCorp.

I get it. A megacorp subject can open branch offices of "fellow" subjects under the same overlord as them so long as their overlord is not also a megacorp.

 

[Farbros]

It is like a whole list of features I wanted to see coming in Stellaris, literally everything from today's diary.

 

[zZander56]

Will Hyper Relays enhance trade routes at all? Seems like the kind of thing a galactic railroad would do.

 

[Lorenerd11]

We have finally a precedent for highly important and game changing tech naturally fluctuating into neighboring empires

I know, it looks not like much but this is extremely exciting if this could go even further in the future. Its a way more realistic approach to science and technology!

I think it would be interesting if all fallen empire colonies were also connected through Hyper Relays, just to further show off how much ahead they are in terms of technology in early game.

Obviously fallen empire relays wouldn't contribute to others discovering relays the same way it does with regular empires.

 

[Idle America]

So... Hyper Relays are basically like building space railroads? That's what I'm gonna call them, regardless!

Also, will there be a fix for the incorrect AI spawn amount?

 

[SeekingEtermity]

Please, please tell me that trade routes interact with the Hyper Relay network. There are so many ways they could - ranging from not being at piracy risk, to actually having an increase in value, to just allowing collection without needing build another starbase just to grab that system one jump further than your current collection range limit. Ideally it would even allow us to benefit from international trade routes, at least to neighbors and possibly to the galactic market hub, to trade enclaves, to the caravaneers... the possibilities are endless.

Trade routes as a mechanism are currently just so... meh. There's a period where you have a minimally interesting minigame of "where do I build my trade-collection starbases? Do I build bastions to protect the routes?", which goes away upon getting gateways and isn't much fun before then either. There's some point in the mechanic existing as a way for enemy incursions to disrupt your economy, but almost nobody depends on trade value hard enough for a brief disruption to be a problem. This being due in part to trade value being just a terribly inefficient source of resources - both low-value initially and falling further behind as the game goes on - but also because the jobs are almost never worth focusing on.

One of the biggest problems with trade routes (like so many features of Stellaris) is that they're siloed, and don't interact with anything else (internal market, galactic market, international trades, enclaves, immigration, local resource availability, local construction costs, ethics drift, generation of Unity without a specific Federation or specific Policy that is no longer widely available, etc.). Pretty much the only thing they interact with right now is piracy, which is both a giant nothingburger in terms of effect, and simply un-fun. Enemies can't even plunder trade routes!

Hyper relays are a major and obvious opportunity to spice up the trade route mechanic. They're the paved roads / canals / major shipping routes / railroads / highways of an interstellar empire. Historically, reliable and rapid movement of goods was one of the greatest enablers of trade, and trade was one of the primary reasons to ensure fast and reliable movement. It allowed greater specialization (and thus gains through trade), mitigated shortfalls and demand spikes, carried culture and religion far beyond their homelands, and tied nations together... on top of, of course, allowing faster military movement.

Some concrete suggestions (numbers subject to change, each recommendation works on their own).

• Systems with a Hyper Relay connection to the capital generate 20% more trade value.
• Hyper Relays collect all trade value in their system if connected (by Hyper Relays) to a starbase with a Trade Hub.
• A trade route that both enters and leaves via a Hyper Relay has its max piracy halved.
• Empires with a Hyper Relay connection between their capitals and a Commerce Pact each generate 10% more trade value (or resources from TV) empire-wide for each such empire (this also increases the value of the pact, of course).
• When computing the distance penalty modifier to Branch Office costs, systems with a Hyper Relay don't count.
• Having Hyper Relay connection to the Galactic Market Hub reduces your galactic market fee by 1% for each other member of the galactic community with such a connection (possibly reduce the inherent benefit of having the GMH in your space if this is too much...).
• Having a Hyper Relay from your capital to any of your own planets with a tier 2 capital (Planetary Capital / Hive Nexus / Planetary Processor / etc.) or better reduces your market fee (internal or galactic) by 1%, to a maximum of reduction of 10%.
• Having a Hyper Relay from your capital to a Trade Enclave within your empire reduces the cost of the enclave's resources by 10%.

A few other things, not specific to Hyper Relays:

• Add techs that increase trade value generation similar to resource production, so it doesn't get left in the dirt.
  • Optionally, attach it to the hyperdrive techs, as presumably civilian ships use that too and faster hyperdrives will increase opportunities for gains through trade.
• Make the Galactic Market Hub substantially (25% or so?) increase trade value generated in the system where it's located.
• When an enemy empire captures a starbase that was on a trade route, let them "capture" a one-time reward of the maximum amount of Trade Value that could be lost to piracy in that system (ignoring Trade Protection).
• Let pirates expand, capturing nearby starbases and gaining fleet strength (via modifiers or extra ships) every time they conquer a starbase on a trade route, or destroy a mining platform.
• Display an overlay showing both the trade collection range (including from Hyper Relays, if you take the second bullet above) and trade protection range of each starbase.
  • Currently it's a hassle to count out the jumps.
  • Also, currently there's no easy way to tell which starbase is actually collecting the trade value in a system if two or more upgraded starbases are in range.
• Clearly indicate the trade value generated by each pop for each standard of living; it's basically totally opaque right now.

 

[SeekingEtermity]

Corporate Dominion is only available if you don't have the Megacorp DLC active.

This is true for when you're creating empires, but I think it actually makes a ton of sense here. There's no reason Corporate Dominion must be only available in games where the host doesn't have Megacorp. In terms of gameplay impact, it's totally compatible with Megacorps, though a bit redundant and boring. In terms of flavor, it makes huge amounts of sense - way more than Merchant Guilds - for somebody submitting to a megacorp.

 

[zZander56]

Please, please tell me that trade routes interact with the Hyper Relay network. There are so many ways they could - ranging from not being at piracy risk, to actually having an increase in value, to just allowing collection without needing build another starbase just to grab that system one jump further than your current collection range limit. Ideally it would even allow us to benefit from international trade routes, at least to neighbors and possibly to the galactic market hub, to trade enclaves, to the caravaneers... the possibilities are endless.

Trade routes as a mechanism are currently just so... meh. There's a period where you have a minimally interesting minigame of "where do I build my trade-collection starbases? Do I build bastions to protect the routes?", which goes away upon getting gateways and isn't much fun before then either. There's some point in the mechanic existing as a way for enemy incursions to disrupt your economy, but almost nobody depends on trade value hard enough for a brief disruption to be a problem. This being due in part to trade value being just a terribly inefficient source of resources - both low-value initially and falling further behind as the game goes on - but also because the jobs are almost never worth focusing on.

One of the biggest problems with trade routes (like so many features of Stellaris) is that they're siloed, and don't interact with anything else (internal market, galactic market, international trades, enclaves, immigration, local resource availability, local construction costs, ethics drift, generation of Unity without a specific Federation or specific Policy that is no longer widely available, etc.). Pretty much the only thing they interact with right now is piracy, which is both a giant nothingburger in terms of effect, and simply un-fun. Enemies can't even plunder trade routes!

Hyper relays are a major and obvious opportunity to spice up the trade route mechanic. They're the paved roads / canals / major shipping routes / railroads / highways of an interstellar empire. Historically, reliable and rapid movement of goods was one of the greatest enablers of trade, and trade was one of the primary reasons to ensure fast and reliable movement. It allowed greater specialization (and thus gains through trade), mitigated shortfalls and demand spikes, carried culture and religion far beyond their homelands, and tied nations together... on top of, of course, allowing faster military movement.

Some concrete suggestions (numbers subject to change, each recommendation works on their own).

• Systems with a Hyper Relay connection to the capital generate 20% more trade value.
• Hyper Relays collect all trade value in their system if connected (by Hyper Relays) to a starbase with a Trade Hub.
• A trade route that both enters and leaves via a Hyper Relay has its max piracy halved.
• Empires with a Hyper Relay connection between their capitals and a Commerce Pact each generate 10% more trade value (or resources from TV) empire-wide for each such empire (this also increases the value of the pact, of course).
• When computing the distance penalty modifier to Branch Office costs, systems with a Hyper Relay don't count.
• Having Hyper Relay connection to the Galactic Market Hub reduces your galactic market fee by 1% for each other member of the galactic community with such a connection (possibly reduce the inherent benefit of having the GMH in your space if this is too much...).
• Having a Hyper Relay from your capital to any of your own planets with a tier 2 capital (Planetary Capital / Hive Nexus / Planetary Processor / etc.) or better reduces your market fee (internal or galactic) by 1%, to a maximum of reduction of 10%.
• Having a Hyper Relay from your capital to a Trade Enclave within your empire reduces the cost of the enclave's resources by 10%.

A few other things, not specific to Hyper Relays:

• Add techs that increase trade value generation similar to resource production, so it doesn't get left in the dirt.
  • Optionally, attach it to the hyperdrive techs, as presumably civilian ships use that too and faster hyperdrives will increase opportunities for gains through trade.
• Make the Galactic Market Hub substantially (25% or so?) increase trade value generated in the system where it's located.
• When an enemy empire captures a starbase that was on a trade route, let them "capture" a one-time reward of the maximum amount of Trade Value that could be lost to piracy in that system (ignoring Trade Protection).
• Let pirates expand, capturing nearby starbases and gaining fleet strength (via modifiers or extra ships) every time they conquer a starbase on a trade route, or destroy a mining platform.
• Display an overlay showing both the trade collection range (including from Hyper Relays, if you take the second bullet above) and trade protection range of each starbase.
  • Currently it's a hassle to count out the jumps.
  • Also, currently there's no easy way to tell which starbase is actually collecting the trade value in a system if two or more upgraded starbases are in range.
• Clearly indicate the trade value generated by each pop for each standard of living; it's basically totally opaque right now.

I agree with most of what you said, but I have to add: trade value builds are actually able to get great use out of TV, so when increasing those numbers further we need to take care.

Also, I think passive trade value from pops should generally be a bigger deal in order to ensure TV is a significant factor for most empires, which opens up interesting blockading strategies and the like.

 

[SeekingEtermity]

trade value builds are actually able to get great use out of TV

I feel like that's a lot less true than it was. In the days shortly after 2.2, there were far fewer ways to boost trade value, and Clerks were worse, but also pops grew so fast that eventually you'd be shoving them into Commerce Megaplexes for lack of any other way to generate jobs fast enough (partially mitigated by ecus, but those are DLC-locked and take forever to make). My first full game in the post-2.2 world, without even having the Megacorp DLC yet, I made an empire that delivered over 7000 trade value to my capital each month. It was huge. It also had more pops in my empire alone than a modern Huge galaxy does, because there were far more ways to boost growth and they kept growing until you were way over the housing limit.

Today, though, it's really hard to do anything comparable. Trade value has a lot more things that boost it, but mostly in tiny amounts like 5%; there's nothing equivalent to the massive boosts to resource production you get from early- and mid-game techs. Clerks have a much better output at 4, but Technicians also got better with a base of 6, so letting your pops be Clerks is still a job of last resort that will put you behind other empires. Then there's the buildings that boost base production of basic resources, but nothing that boosts base trade output. Similarly, it's much harder to specialize planets for trade; normal planets don't have a trade designation (certainly nothing nearly as good as Generator World), and I don't know of a single planetary modifier that boosts trade value the way a bunch of them boost resources (or research). There's also still no trait to boost trade production by robots, and keeping Thrifty on genetically-ascended pops requires giving up a special trait or having more train points and/or picks than usual. Meanwhile, Merchants (like all Rulers) got hugely nerfed with the heinous CG upkeep, and while corporate trade-producing jobs are just strictly better than non-corporate equivalents, they still don't make "focus on trade" as viable as I'd like.

The main thing that changed is the Mercantile tree, but even there, things aren't as good as they could be.

• The +1 TV for Clerks still isn't enough to make Clerks competitive with other jobs, and as far as I can tell Trickle-Up Economics doesn't boost anything except Clerks, so it's not enough to make you _want_ to use Clerks for anything.
  • Boosting Merchants - and maybe the other trade-producing jobs, or just the trade from pops in general - would make it way better.
• Getting 2x +10% trade value is nice (if kind of boring, and underwhelming for two traditions), but the total benefit from that is equivalent to a single tech you can pull at the very start of the game, and that has multiple higher levels before you even get to the infinite runaway of repeatables.
• +5 trade protection and +1 collection range helps avoid the thing where trade builds have piracy everywhere, but it won't actually save you from this problem.
• The -10% market fee is nice* but it doesn't impact trade at all.
  • What, you expect "trade" and "market" to be in any way related concepts? Come on, this is Stellaris!).
  • * Unless you got very lucky with enclave placement, in which case it can be literally useless since you can't ever go below 5% and it's possible to get at least 25% reduction without Insider Trading.
• Half of the finisher is redundant if you're already at all trade-focused, even aside from the thing where you might potentially get somebody else to make a Trade League for you
• Adaptive Economic Policies doesn't improve your trade output at all, and is barely relevant at all if you're in a Trade League the way you'll really want to be (Trade Leagues get very little in the way of a federation navy anyhow).
• Commercial Enterprise is the one, sole, shining gem for trade output in the whole tree... and even there, the value is questionable.
  • At 12 TV (and 3 amenities), Merchants are highly productive pops, but a third of that (base) output goes to just paying their own 2CG upkeep (or a full half of it, if you count Ruler-tier pops getting a 1CG living standard, or back to a third if you do but you're also in a Trade League). They never give Unity anymore either.
  • It is now possible to get a ton of merchants from it - far more than the five or so that was about the best you could hope for under the old Propsperity finisher - but only if accept also creating a giant pile of Clerk jobs instead of anything useful.
  • It doesn't boost Galactic Stock Exchange. It still feels like you kind of have to build the GSE, since that 20% trade output is so important to your build, but it doesn't provide any more jobs (fewer, actually, if you count Clerks) than a Commerce Megaplex, which costs the same.

 

[Zoomy]

The sushi achievement icon is what you get when you take Bubbles to the Salvager Enclave.

 

[zZander56]

I feel like that's a lot less true than it was. In the days shortly after 2.2, there were far fewer ways to boost trade value, and Clerks were worse, but also pops grew so fast that eventually you'd be shoving them into Commerce Megaplexes for lack of any other way to generate jobs fast enough (partially mitigated by ecus, but those are DLC-locked and take forever to make). My first full game in the post-2.2 world, without even having the Megacorp DLC yet, I made an empire that delivered over 7000 trade value to my capital each month. It was huge. It also had more pops in my empire alone than a modern Huge galaxy does, because there were far more ways to boost growth and they kept growing until you were way over the housing limit.

Today, though, it's really hard to do anything comparable. Trade value has a lot more things that boost it, but mostly in tiny amounts like 5%; there's nothing equivalent to the massive boosts to resource production you get from early- and mid-game techs. Clerks have a much better output at 4, but Technicians also got better with a base of 6, so letting your pops be Clerks is still a job of last resort that will put you behind other empires. Then there's the buildings that boost base production of basic resources, but nothing that boosts base trade output. Similarly, it's much harder to specialize planets for trade; normal planets don't have a trade designation (certainly nothing nearly as good as Generator World), and I don't know of a single planetary modifier that boosts trade value the way a bunch of them boost resources (or research). There's also still no trait to boost trade production by robots, and keeping Thrifty on genetically-ascended pops requires giving up a special trait or having more train points and/or picks than usual. Meanwhile, Merchants (like all Rulers) got hugely nerfed with the heinous CG upkeep, and while corporate trade-producing jobs are just strictly better than non-corporate equivalents, they still don't make "focus on trade" as viable as I'd like.

The main thing that changed is the Mercantile tree, but even there, things aren't as good as they could be.

• The +1 TV for Clerks still isn't enough to make Clerks competitive with other jobs, and as far as I can tell Trickle-Up Economics doesn't boost anything except Clerks, so it's not enough to make you _want_ to use Clerks for anything.
  • Boosting Merchants - and maybe the other trade-producing jobs, or just the trade from pops in general - would make it way better.
• Getting 2x +10% trade value is nice (if kind of boring, and underwhelming for two traditions), but the total benefit from that is equivalent to a single tech you can pull at the very start of the game, and that has multiple higher levels before you even get to the infinite runaway of repeatables.
• +5 trade protection and +1 collection range helps avoid the thing where trade builds have piracy everywhere, but it won't actually save you from this problem.
• The -10% market fee is nice* but it doesn't impact trade at all.
  • What, you expect "trade" and "market" to be in any way related concepts? Come on, this is Stellaris!).
  • * Unless you got very lucky with enclave placement, in which case it can be literally useless since you can't ever go below 5% and it's possible to get at least 25% reduction without Insider Trading.
• Half of the finisher is redundant if you're already at all trade-focused, even aside from the thing where you might potentially get somebody else to make a Trade League for you
• Adaptive Economic Policies doesn't improve your trade output at all, and is barely relevant at all if you're in a Trade League the way you'll really want to be (Trade Leagues get very little in the way of a federation navy anyhow).
• Commercial Enterprise is the one, sole, shining gem for trade output in the whole tree... and even there, the value is questionable.
  • At 12 TV (and 3 amenities), Merchants are highly productive pops, but a third of that (base) output goes to just paying their own 2CG upkeep (or a full half of it, if you count Ruler-tier pops getting a 1CG living standard, or back to a third if you do but you're also in a Trade League). They never give Unity anymore either.
  • It is now possible to get a ton of merchants from it - far more than the five or so that was about the best you could hope for under the old Propsperity finisher - but only if accept also creating a giant pile of Clerk jobs instead of anything useful.
  • It doesn't boost Galactic Stock Exchange. It still feels like you kind of have to build the GSE, since that 20% trade output is so important to your build, but it doesn't provide any more jobs (fewer, actually, if you count Clerks) than a Commerce Megaplex, which costs the same.

Spamming Merchants with Mercantile and stacking trade bonuses is what leads to a powerful TV build, which is best done as a Void Dweller. At least right after the tradition dropped, TV was extremely powerful and even had its place in multiplayer games. I haven't played since then though.

 

[Miguelinileugim]

It will still be cheaper in total to claim in a line as a Slingshot empire when building outposts, as the discount only applies to the distance penalty they get. If you try to claim a system 2 jumps away from your borders it will be 2x the cost, but the 75% discount would instead make it 1.25x the cost.

Ohhh yeah that makes a lot more sense. I guess it's a pretty minor bonus then, perhaps situationally useful.

 

[peter_m]

Can my ships destroy the enemy's hyper relay stations? Seeing how they only require as much alloys as a Cruiser (if my memory is correct on this one) and only take a year to build, I would think they are destructible and not in the 'too big to destroy' category.

 

[Devanor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Hyper Relay is, in essence, a kind-of shortcut when using hyperlanes? You still have to travel the lanes, but the Relay speeds up the process by skipping sublight travel?

 

[SWVRoma]

It's a small thing, but it's something I'd request from pretty much all Paradox games: With the color palettes: Is there any way you can show labels over mouseover or something so we can see what color it is?

I'm asking this as a member of the colorblind minority.

I actually had debug mode on CK3 the other week and was *thrilled* when I saw colors on mouseover... And then remembered debug was on. Cue sadness.

 

[Troyen]

We have finally a precedent for highly important and game changing tech naturally fluctuating into neighboring empires

That kind of happens with Mega-Engineering already, just with a base weight low enough you may not notice. You get a 1.5x chance to draw Mega-Engineering if any neighbor has the tech.

Same with the ship type and starbase upgrade techs where you get a 10x bonus to draw the card if one of your neighbors has the tech.

 

[StellarisFan1]

When espionage is reworked - for influence points it is a very good idea !!!!!
playing dozens of crime syndicate games! I realized that energy-credit operations are very expensive at the start of the game, very hard!