Stellaris Dev Diary #27 - Music & Sound

[satyrlord]

It's funny because you write this whole thing about dislike of criticism and bias and whatnot, whilst, looking at the particular sentence quoted, I am 90+% sure that the lol was specifically to the last bit, where you say " I'm not saying I could have done it better myself. I could, but that's not the point,"

Where you basically became this meme:

I, too, found that hilarious because you literally contradict what you had said, in the very next sentence, not even, the very next words! If you don't see how that's lol worthy then I must say... lol.

I'm sorry, there must be some cross-cultural miscommunication or something lost in translation, but honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. Where do I contradict myself? Why the fuck would you laugh at a musician and so on? I hope people laugh at your hobbies as well, especially the ones where you're really good at. Maybe that will help you develop your empathy, since that's definitely not one of your hobbies.

 

[kaiserwilhelm92]

Very Mass Effect esque

 

[DAKOTA567]

Where do I contradict myself?

Is this serious?

Okay, let me use meme arrows, they're both condescending and clear.

>Says you're not saying you can do better

>Literally the very next thing that comes out of your mouth is that you can do better

>Doesn't see the contradiction

10/10 would kek again.

I mean, you also lost the technicality, as you had not said, well, "said" in the past tense, as an "I have not said I can do better, however I am saying it now" type of a deal. No, you said "saying" in the present tense, thus eliminating the technicality you could've used to weasel yourself out of it.




Also: I'm not laughing at your hobby, I mentioned nothing of your musical capabilities or judgement thereof, I am laughing at your clear failure to understand what you said.

 

[satyrlord]

Is this serious?

Okay, let me use meme arrows, they're both condescending and clear.

>Says you're not saying you can do better

>Literally the very next thing that comes out of your mouth is that you can do better

>Doesn't see the contradiction

10/10 would kek again.

I mean, you also lost the technicality, as you had not said, well, "said" in the past tense, as an "I have not said I can do better, however I am saying it now" type of a deal. No, you said "saying" in the present tense, thus eliminating the technicality you could've used to weasel yourself out of it.




Also: I'm not laughing at your hobby, I mentioned nothing of your musical capabilities or judgement thereof, I am laughing at your clear failure to understand what you said.

First of all, your entire premise holds on to the little thread of language. I am not a native English speaker.

What I meant was:

"I'm not arrogant enough to say about myself that I am better or that I can do better in general HOWEVER those tracks are so underwhelming that even my amateur shit is better."

I hope it's clearer now.

 

[John Forseti]

First of all, your entire premise holds on to the little thread of language. I am not a native English speaker.

What I meant was:

"I'm not arrogant enough to say about myself that I am better or that I can do better in general HOWEVER those tracks are so underwhelming that even my amateur shit is better."

I hope it's clearer now.

I think the level of arrogance is perfectly clear.

 

[DAKOTA567]

I think the level of arrogance is perfectly clear.

This.

Also, UoB flag avatar, high five. *Holds out hand*

 

[satyrlord]

I think the level of arrogance is perfectly clear.

Fine, whatever, there's no way to convince you apparently, but do me a favor anyway:

Compare this and this to To the Ends of the Galaxy and Luminescence. If you still think the Stellaris tracks are better, that's OK with me, but at least you'll know what I was talking about.

What you mistake for arrogance, I call self-confidence and expertise but whatever, must be some sort of cultural misunderstanding that I don't get, I know that some countries have a different ethos when it comes to individual merit and confidence.

Also if you and all down-voters think you can bully me into submission, fanboy-ism and obedience, think again. Those two tracks from Stellaris are shallow, boring, derivative and unoriginal. That is fact and all the downvotes in the world won't change that. Hopefully the next tracks will be better.

 

[ahhheygao]

Fine, whatever, there's no way to convince you apparently, but do me a favor anyway:

Compare this and this to To the Ends of the Galaxy and Luminescence. If you still think the Stellaris tracks are better, that's OK with me, but at least you'll know what I was talking about.

A Sense of Loss II sounds great--I like it more than this DD's tracks, though I'd rank it below the Stellaris Main Theme. The Uncertainty Principle doesn't fit quite right for the game; it's a nice track, but not something I'd want to hear in the background.

Also if you and all down-voters think you can bully me into submission, fanboy-ism and obedience, think again. Those two tracks from Stellaris are shallow, boring, derivative and unoriginal. That is fact and all the downvotes in the world won't change that. Hopefully the next tracks will be better.

Prosecution complex much? You get bombarded with disagrees simply because people dislike or disagree with your posts. This isn't Leddit; no one can silence your voice with downboats, aside from putting you on Ignore.

 

[satyrlord]

A Sense of Loss II sounds great--I like it more than this DD's tracks, though I'd rank it below the Stellaris Main Theme. The Uncertainty Principle doesn't fit quite right for the game; it's a nice track, but not something I'd want to hear in the background.

Thanks! I appreciate the comments and I fully agree that TUP doesn't work for a space game, however I don't have too many tracks than can fairly compete with Andreas' work.

Prosecution complex much? You get bombarded with disagrees simply because people dislike or disagree with your posts. This isn't Leddit; no one can silence your voice with downboats, aside from putting you on Ignore.

While you are technically correct and you can't be silenced, forum down-votes are demotivating and discouraging so it serves like soft self-censorship rather than reddit's hard self-censorship. Downvotes of any kind are a warning of "don't break the circlejerk / will of the people".

PS: it's persecution complex not prosecution. Either way, I don't believe in that stuff, I don't feel persecuted, I'm just frustrated that I was unable to communicate properly and honestly.

 

[John Forseti]

Compare this and this to To the Ends of the Galaxy and Luminescence. If you still think the Stellaris tracks are better, that's OK with me, but at least you'll know what I was talking about.

Those two tracks are nice, I definitely don't think they sound bad or anything, but they don't feel qualitively superior to the tracks the Devs put out, atleast not to me. I certainly dont see how they're any more original or thought-provoking or, most crucially i guess, entertaining.

 

[satyrlord]

Those two tracks are nice, I definitely don't think they sound bad or anything, but they don't feel qualitively superior to the tracks the Devs put out, atleast not to me. I certainly dont see how they're any more original or thought-provoking or, most crucially i guess, entertaining.

That is fair enough and thank you for your time. It might just be the case of me having an over-inflated opinion about myself or just hating the tracks. i will play the game using my music anyway.

 

[Megamaniaco]

I gotta say, soundtracks are a huge part of any game, movie, tv series for me...and so far Stellaris is #winning on this department. I'm really looking forward to the full OST!

 

[DAKOTA567]

What you mistake for arrogance, I call self-confidence and expertise but whatever

It's the way you word shit, you word it as condescending and arrogantly as you possibly can, regardless of the quality of your work vs the Stellaris tracks (Honestly, I wasn't even that into the Stellaris tracks, not my preference, so this is not a defence thing like you insist it is). Having confidence that your work is better isn't particularly bad, but you seem to go out of your way to word things like a complete cockhead whilst claiming you are not being a complete cockhead.

I honestly don't buy the "English isn't my native language" excuse, either, as you use better grammar than half the native English users I have encountered.

If you wanted to word that in a less arrogant way, you should've said something more along the lines of: "The Stellaris tracks are a bit on the bland side, nothing particularly special, though not particularly bad, either. I have decent confidence that at the very least some of my works are of better quality."

Boom, how to say what you said, but without coming off as an complete arrogant cockhead.

 

[satyrlord]

I honestly don't buy the "English isn't my native language" excuse, either, as you use better grammar than half the native English users I have encountered.

It's not about the grammar, it's about the culture. For example, this weekend there was a match and some Dutch player's father, who spoke perfect English, said the "he misses how his son smells". While this sounds creepy as hell for me or a native speaker or someone who has English knowledge, it might be a direct transliteration of some perfectly normal Dutch expression.

The same as for me, maybe I come off as arrogant because, even though my grammar and spelling are perfect, I still speak with a Romanian mindset, and in my country and language, what I said sounds pretty casual, even funny, because the etiquette is different. We don't have the concept of "Lagom" like some Swedish people, for example, and being too humble or modest sometimes is considered forced and fake. Romanians as a people, are loud and boisterous, to the point of being obnoxious sometimes. Of course, some of us are humble and modest, but I'm not one of those. So, sorry for having a different culture and mindset than others, I guess? I hate being humble in one's expertise and I consider it a disgusting habit and weakness. I wouldn't hire a plumber or electrician who isn't confident in his skill, for example. I wouldn't hire any humble person to do anything.

 

[DAKOTA567]

It's not about the grammar, it's about the culture. For example, this weekend there was a match and some Dutch player's father, who spoke perfect English, said the "he misses how his son smells". While this sounds creepy as hell for me or a native speaker or someone who has English knowledge, it might be a direct transliteration of some perfectly normal Dutch expression.

The same as for me, maybe I come off as arrogant because, even though my grammar and spelling are perfect, I still speak with a Romanian mindset, and in my country and language, what I said sounds pretty casual, even funny, because the etiquette is different. We don't have the concept of "Lagom" like some Swedish people, for example, and being too humble or modest sometimes is considered forced and fake. Romanians as a people, are loud and boisterous, to the point of being obnoxious sometimes. Of course, some of us are humble and modest, but I'm not one of those. So, sorry for having a different culture and mindset than others, I guess? I hate being humble in one's expertise and I consider it a disgusting habit and weakness. I wouldn't hire a plumber or electrician who isn't confident in his skill, for example. I wouldn't hire any humble person to do anything.

You can still say things confidently and not humbly without sounding like what you had sounded like before. Something like "even my amateur shit is better" is pretty high in the range of condescending ways to put it, as the way it's worded reflects that your own stuff is mediocre, but still better than the Stellaris stuff, basically hitting the Stellaris stuff with a double whammy of "it's shit worse than shit".

The example I gave isn't exactly humble, but if you wanted it less modest and more confident, whilst still remaining non-cockheadery, just remove the "decent" before "confidence" and the "at the very least" bit, and boom, much more confident, but still not cockhead level. So it look's like: "The Stellaris tracks are a bit on the bland side, nothing particularly special, though not particularly bad, either. I have confidence that some of my works are of better quality."

You could also remove some other parts, such as the "bit" on referring to Stellaris's blandness, you can remove the "though not particularly bad, either" part, you could remove the "some" in reference to the portion of your works that are qualitatively better, thus stating that in general your work is better, etc. to sound less modest, and still not sound like a complete cockhead. (Though at this point quite a few would probably find it more than a bit rough, the sensitive types may still see it as arrogant, even, but it's definitely better.)

As to cultural differences, I guess I hadn't taken that into consideration, as you are speaking English so well I figured you also had at least a decent understanding of how certain phrasing sounds to an English speaking culture. However though, it still seems hard to grasp that you didn't see it at all because it is just so far on the scale past inoffensive confidence and decently into offensive condescension that I have a hard time believing you could miss it completely. Sure, it's not the most condescending stuff around, it could be a lot worse, but it's still decently into that range.

 

[satyrlord]

As to cultural differences, I guess I hadn't taken that into consideration, as you are speaking English so well I figured you also had at least a decent understanding of how certain phrasing sounds to an English speaking culture. However though, it still seems hard to grasp that you didn't see it at all because it is just so far on the scale past inoffensive confidence and decently into offensive condescension that I have a hard time believing you could miss it completely. Sure, it's not the most condescending stuff around, it could be a lot worse, but it's still decently into that range.

Thanks for the tip and I will try to behave better, to be more neutral and less dramatic, I think that's the issue. I can assure you of no malice or gratuitous condescension. In my opinion it was just a severe case of miscommunication and shallowness on my side (posting without thinking) otherwise I wouldn't bother explaining myself so much but, of course, feel free to assume what you want.

 

[Tarafaciel]

Beautiful music. I love it!

 

[Mithrantir]

Nice music.
To the end of the galaxy sounds like it has drawn inspiration from Vangelis tracks (there is a certain sense of glory that this track instills), and gives me about the same feels I had with Mass Effect soundtracks (which are in the top 10 of the best game soundtracks in my book).
Luminescence sounds like it has drawn inspiration from Mike Oldfield, and sounds awesome.

 

[redsimonDE]

Yes, I know that this post is quite late, nevertheless I felt the need to address some points and now I have the time for this.
I won't continue with the discussion of your (satyrlord) posting style/way to address people. I will just add that people do not normally talk to each other like this on this forum for example. As you have made over 1700 posts here you should have noticed that.
By the way, I am not a native English speaker either.

Of course you need musical expertise in order to objectively criticize music, otherwise you're just stating what you don't like instead of what's objectively bad. For example, Justin Bieber is very popular but objectively horrible while Biosphere is quite unpopular but objectively good music, not because I like it, but because it's highly complex, atmospheric, innovative, has good mastering, production values and brings out strong feelings in the listener, other feelings than disgust, shame or whatever bad music stirs up.

You say of course, I say not at all. Justin Bieber aside, the arguments you make are foremost about music creating, but not about the perception of music. Mastering or production value do not make good music one bit, just like a large buget does not make a great movie. The same can be said about complexity, no, especially about complexity. Good art never had to be complex, whether it is music or something else. Complexity can be as good as it can be bad, hence must always come with something else to make a piece of music good. Innovations are also always welcome in music, but are also not enough. Twelve-tone music for example was once new, but never good. And all the rest you mention (atmospheric, brings out strong feelings) are emotional reactions, that depend on the individual listener.
This all boils down to: aspects of the process of music creation are nice to know, but absolutely unimportant for the perception of music.

I actually never said that although I implied that people without musical knowledge will criticize and downvote my own criticism. While it's not necessary to have musical knowledge to criticize music, it's absolutely necessary to have musical knowledge to criticize criticism and engage in musical debates.

You implication is the same you mentioned above, that one needs to be somehow more involved in the craft of music than "just" being an avid listener who knows a couple of music genres.
What you are saying in these two sentences is that if you are not such a person, your opinion is invalid or a lot less valid. Or maybe I am wrong, and you changed your opinion, as this sounds a little different than in your previous post.
What I am saying is that no, you do not have to be involved that intensely in music to criticize criticism or engage in musical debates. That is simply because the additional knowledge will not help you in evaluating the music further.
Take Waldetoft's track for example: people have mentioned that this works good as game music because it doesn't distract you too much from the game. I agree with that. However, that doesn't mean that it is bad, nor does it mean that it has no other effect. In me for example this track evokes quite a bit of emotions. And while I am not a music creator, I have played several instruments (also in a hobby orchestra) and have consumed quite a lot of usic since my childhood, of several different genres. Still I do not think that makes my perception of this music any more valid than those of people who have never played any instrument or received any musical education.

I won't dignify this insult with a proper answer. I don't deal in "common knowledge" which is just another way of saying "ignorance", I deal in objective musical criticism. Objectively, Andreas music is unoriginal, uninspired but good quality. I can argue this point forever, nevermind the bollocks.

I could use a different term than common knowledge, I just thought that this described best what I meant. As mentioned above I am not a native English speaker either, though it seems your vocabulary is vaster than mine, which is good for you and bad for me (no, that was not an insult or refrence to something). Because of my lack of better description, let's continue with the objective criticism part.
You opinion about Waldetoft's music expressed here is generally valid. However, like I mentioned before, any lack of originality doesn't mean anything. Highly debatable is the description as uninspired, while you admit that it is good quality. I have to mention that last part doesn't sound like some terms you have used before for this track of his.
Coming back to the term objective though, just because you create music your opinion is not any more objective than of anyone else here.

It's nonsense to you because you don't agree with it, I stand by my every word, however stupid they might seem, as they are mine and I take responsibility for them.

Likewise, satyrlord, likewise. But I have to add that the opinion that one needs to a certain craft to criticize it "properly" isn't new, and that while this holds true in the areas of science or craftsmanship I have never heard any argument that backs this up in the area of art, let alone music. If there are "degrees" of criticizing music, then this music wasn't meant to be listened to by all these people who can't give proper criticism. Because what is the point of listening to it if you can never get it?
This is the concept of creating only for people who fit in a certain subgroup. This basically directly opposes the concept of music. Especiall with regards to video games like for example Stellaris. Or do you make music to be enjoyed only by a certain group of people? If yes then how can you compare it to Waldetoft's music? He didn't single out a certain group, he wanted all players of Stellaris to enjoy it. You don't compare apples with pears.

By accurately evaluating metrics, both objective and subjective, like mastering and production values, original elements, note progressions, chord rarity and complexity etc. The music is highly derivative, especially from Mitch Murder and Daft Punk's Tron OST.

That would boil down to numbers. Numbers have never been an indicator of good music, hence why there is no formula for it. It always comes down to an indivudal piece, if something works, so this list of yours is not a measuring tool, it can only give hints.

Of course there is objectively bad music, as there are bad movies, bad videogames, bad food etc. And, of course, since one man's trash is another man's treasure, there will be people enjoying bad art, but that still doesn't make it good, just more enjoyable for some people.

Sure. The problem is in deciding what is bad and what is good, and thus I proposed the idea of a musician just creating to cash in.

And that's exactly what I heard in the soundtrack, some dude getting his paycheck. Compare this to Solar Fields' Mirror's Edge soundtrack and you will hear it too.

But I didn't. In fact, not only does Waldetoft's track affect me emotionally, it makes me see images of galaxy exploration, scientific advancement, vast structures and the vastness of space, sometimes dangerous but always majestic.

Yes, but my point is that even such a widely recognized and critically-acclaimed artist would come down to the forums himself and say his honest opinion, he would be downvoted for stating his honest opinions and attacked with comments such as "lol pretentious".

As someone else before mentioned, downvoting doesn't exist here. The only problem with the disagree button is that it includes both actual disagreement as well as people who just don't like what the author of a post said. But that is unavoidable and it is mute to complain about that. Just assume that some people express actual disagreement, and others don't.
However, whether it is a Hans Zimmer or a satyrlord or a redsimonDE, none of these people's opinions have any more value than any other opinion. If people would disagree with Zimmer, then this disagreement had the same value as the disagreement with someone who does not create music.

 

[Ziffallo]

I preordered the Nova version specifically for the soundtrack.

Thank you.