Stellaris Dev Diary #272 - The Pact is Signed and Spoken

[Ferrus Animus]

THIS.

I'm fundamentally a role-playing in this game. I never try to paint the map. I like diplomacy. I don't like playing the bad guy, ever. I ho estly don't find it fun at all.

And frankly? Pacts seem like the antithesis of what a spiritual people would want, at least some spiritual peoples. If they grew as a society believing in Demons, this is pretty much exactly what it looks like you're doing. A pact with a demon. Yes lots of ways spiritual can be looked at, but still!

And then to top it off we add penalties to what is pretty much the weakest ascension anyways?

Just, yeah. Some more benign, if less reward, but also not penalizing options would be nice. Both go it alone and a way to make your own presence a thing especially. Sure those might be out of the scope of this update, and that is definitely fine. Just would be nice to know if such might be on the radar at least.

Also, I love the idea so.eone else had about crusades against rival pacts.

A covenant is a pact. Or rather something similar.
A pact is "do this and get that for it" a covenant is more "don't do this ever and as long as you do you get that".

The rules of a religion for example are a covenant.
So it fits, though the penalties are a bit unfitting here.

Funnily enough the Eater of Worlds works best here: Get combat bonuses and do not be at peace. If you are at peace it costs you, but aside from wildlife and pirates one needs to be at war to use most of its benefits.
The others are a bit more weird: Instrument is "get what you want easier but do not deny your hunger"? Whisperers is "Get knowledge and be unruly/backstabbing/rebellious/unproductive"? (I feel stability is a weird stat here)
And the Weaver does not work at all. They want to kinda limit genetic manipualtion but then don't.

Like if that is the idea I feel that it could be realized more succinct for most of them. And events (an unknown so far) could be utilized for it.

 

[Thiend]

I greatly approve of reworking the Covenants and giving us the option to select them. (Although as rare as Zro can be, that could also be frustrating - Zro needs to be a little more likely if you select Psi ascension, IMO.)

All that said, the penalties for a covenant are steep. Too steep. Especially since Psi Ascension still lacks in the single biggest area - the other ascension paths are always going to out-populate a Psi Ascension empire, by a lot. The bonuses for a Covenant should either be stronger, or wider reaching, or the overall negatives should be reduced or dropped.

I'm holding off judgement until I test the psionic ship components again now that disengagement actually works. It might be that where the other ascensions win on economy, psionics wins on your fleets refusing to stay down (thus you don't actually need to replace the ships much, so the economic disparity is now parity). I agree on whisperers though, doesn't that actually math out to +2.5% research and -7.5% of every other pop output?

Regarding the Zro problem - make the psionics finisher add +1 zro/month. It's not much, but it prevents you being hard locked from actually using any components you manage to draw and you can buy more if you need it for stuff like fishing for the covenant you want.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

The covenant changes are great.

Though, I wish we had a couple covenants that weren’t explicitly WH40K-style eldritch abominations.

It’s hard to imagine the default Scyldari empire (democracy, pacifist, spiritualist, xenophile) making a pact with any of these guys, for example.

It’d also be nice if the Chosen One was expanded on with a “forge your own path” option where you explicitly reject a covenant in favor of some bonuses for your Chosen One as God-Emperor.

Overall, I feel like the current selection railroads spiritualists down a certain thematic/storytelling path whereas none of the other ascension paths do this. It’s not bad, per se, but some variety would be great.

 

[Elfwind]

The pleasure seekers civic should guarantee getting instrument of desire for covenants.

I'm sure there are other interactions that can be put in too!

 

[Dire]

Good patch but RIP psy-borgs, I'll miss them.

 

[theBigTurnip385]

you kind of left out of the patch notes that stability no longer increases planet trade %

 

[Sir Rolin]

How do missing Missiles work? Are they "doomed" when the miss is rolled, like instant hit weapons, or can they retarget after missing or if the 'not yet missed' (as in not reached yet) ship is destroyed?

Do swarm missiles keep their 100%?

I haven't tested it, but I am pretty sure that if you roll a miss on the acc. it wouldn't hit anything.
in 3.6.:
Swarm missiles have 85% acc.
if the target dies before the missile hits, it has 100% chance retarget and hit something else, this chance is lowered by 35% each time it needs to retarget.

 

[Sir Rolin]

These are amazing changes!
Do the random events still happen or have these been replaced with the maluses on the covenant?
Will the Devourer get its event changed? Loosing a pop or a planet altogether can be devastating, especially compared to the other patron’s events being annoying at best.
Is there a chance it could be changed to planetary devastation/loosing pops instead of loosing pops/loosing a planet? Otherwise the Eater’s price is far too steep compared to everyone else’s and generally not that worth it.
Either way great job with the changes, love how the Patrons don’t feel just like modifiers now.

EDIT: also forgot to ask, if you have a Chosen One but no Covenant and enter one afterwards, will it change your Chosen One’s pact or will it stay a regular Chosen One?

From what I can read it stays.

 

[MHC]

I have a question:

Does the progress with your covenant scale with game settings? I.e.. does it go faster with lower tech weight, or is the ~50 years is made shorter if the mid-game and end-game start years are moved forward?

I often want to play a shorter game and put tech weight at .75x and move the mid-game to 2250 and the end game to 2300 (or sometimes 2275). But if covenant progress doesn't scale accordingly, that effectively nerfs this ascension path for shorter games in a weird way. (And it would handicap the AI in such games by virtue of their choosing it.)

I think that ought to be an easy adjustment if this isn't already being done.

 

[kwheeler]

I really like those changes.

For the Covenants might I suggest one thing: Some people might not want to chose a covenant for roleplay reasons. For those people I would love an option to create a covenant from your species. This would give an easy option for those empires to have a covenant without having to rely on outside forces. And you know, the inspiration for those covenants has something similar in universe.

Interesting idea. Could you expand on that a bit, so I can better see what you are thinking?

 

[-Marauder-]

Poor Whisperer of the Void, yikes. Nerfed from +15% research speed to 10% research speed, and now has -15 stability. It just doesn't look like producing more science anymore.
Recalling how priests lost increased production after unity rework, i can't notice how devs keep making worse already underopwered ethic by paying attention to it.

This entire thing convinced me of two.

- The Devs aren't really doing the math behind this stuff. The -15 Stability is already a 7.5% production loss across the board, to everything. This includes science production. So the 10% bonus is actually vastly lower than it appears. Eater of Worlds is in a similar boat. It basically downsizes what fleet you can maintain by increasing upkeep to about 300% of normal. Combine this with the bonus for going over cap and your fleet you can field will likely be vastly smaller than without it, the bonuses don't really make up for it, at all.

- The Devs appear to be balancing each Ascension path in isolation. Synth Ascension is arguably becoming better right now, Bio Ascension might be improving. But Psionics is getting the nerf bat across the board. It loses the evasion bonus and gets shield hardening, which isn't a great change. Several ofthe covenants get actual nerfs. Where other ascensions see buffs Psionic is getting hammered.

Hell look at the Ascension Tree. Two of Five points you have to take are completely wasted. +2 Encryption, +2 Code breaking, literally why? This is a dead pick. +10 Base Intel and an Edict we don't really know about yet. Unless that Edict is amazing. This is once again, terrible.

They ask us if this is "enough" to make it competitive with the other Ascension Paths. Postulating that they HELPED Psionics. When they actually did the opposite. They went and NERFED three out of four covenants. They went and nerfed a bunch of other things. And then added stuff absolutely nobody in their right mind wants. Hell they had to add ACTUAL BENEFITS to Subterfuge such as Evasion/Tracking because Espionage was so terrible. Then slap two dead picks onto the new Psionic Ascension path


How can this be enough when instead of buffing the Ascension Path, the way everything else seems to be getting improvement and buffs. They actually nerfed it in several aspects, slapped new downsides that are both unjustified and unneeded on top of things, and put in what feels like "bad place holders". Seriously they doubled the output of Cloning Vats. To make it "more competitive" with the metallic paths. Then looked at Psionics and went, "You know what, we should give Whisperers -15 stability, that 7.5% production decrease will be great. Or what about 300% upkeep for fleets for Eater of Worlds, they get a whooping 15% fire rate increase for it, three repeatables are obviously worth paying 3x as much for your fleet if you're not at war.

So we're now approaching a point where Psionic Empires are LESS productive per pop, more so than they were already. They produce pops much, much, much slower, and for any bonus they get an equivalent of higher negative on top of it. But hey, you get +10 intel, and slightly better espionage. Neither of which really matters. How can this be "enough" to keep them competitive with buffed Biological/Synth Ascension when it's in many ways an outright nerf. Someone please explain this to me, I just don't understand.

 

[Oculument]

Wonder if Whisperer in the Void is unavailable for Purifiers and the likes, considering the covenant gives an envoy and espionage bonuses.

I've played purifiers on previous versions of the game, and espionage is actually quite helpful. The tech stealing especially as well as lifting of the fog of war before building a sentry array. Envoys are spies, and purifiers never have enough spies.

 

[George Fernell]

This is my suggestion on how to make covenants more thematically cohesive and balanced.

I think it is extremely dirty to link MOST of "Whispers" bonuses to espionage, a mechanic that we all know is underpowered AND requires Nemesis DLC.
As the theme of him is "Forbidden knowledge" I decided to include Leader exp to bonuses and remove all the spy mechanics until the date when the spying system actually works. Also the bonuses are increased because -Stability is a MASSIVE nerf so we need to be mindful of that.

As for "Instrument of Desire" considering the main theme is "Hedonism" I decided to take pop growth speed from Composer and place it here. As for negatives - pop upkeep fits the theme but numbers are overturned like crazy, so I decided to lower it and add amenities usage increase. It will force you to have more entertainers playing into the "Hedonism" theme more

As for the "Composer" the theme is "Forbidden Power". So I gave him resources from jobs that I took from "Desire". I think it fits the theme much better as you allow the deity to modify your flesh uncontrollably. You achieve unparalleled efficiency but need to pay the price in mutations.

"Eater" is mostly fine but I thinks its dangerous to give him attack range AND fire rate, as his theme is "Rage" I think it would be cool to build his fleets as close range brawlers. Also having traits that mitigate his main weakness, ship upkeep, is very illogical.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

Other than the TTS, that is a rather good idea IMHO, I also miss having a way to read the texts of some relevant interactions again. An events log of sorts that provides a history of your empire and a quick way to read past anomaly results, archaeological digs and completed event chains.

 

[Feanorian]

I would love to see artwork for each entity you can encounter in the shroud. It could give a very nice lovecraftian vibe.

 

[Caraad]

Loving the covenant reworks.

For the Eater of Worlds though, that slapping on a 200% upkeep on the military might be too steep a drawback. Rather, maybe it should be something that increases incrementally while you are not at war. Years of peace drag on with the Eater of Worlds imposing a higher and higher upkeep on your ships and troops to maintain its blessings, until it hits a crippling 200% upkeep as the Eater becomes ravenous, demanding you FIGHT something. ANYTHING. NO MORE PEACE! NEVER PEACE!

BLOOD, SOULS, WORLDS! BLOOD, SOULS, WORLDS! BLOOD, SOULS, WORLDS! WAR FOR THE WAR GOD! WORLDS FOR THE WORLD EATER!

Anyway... I think an incremental upkeep would be better as while an empire with the Eater of Worlds as its patron being encouraged to be at constant war is both RP and mechanically awesome and fitting, it would give such empires some time between conflicts to repair, rearm... and prepare for the next feast...

 

[HFY]

For the Eater of Worlds though, that slapping on a 200% upkeep on the military might be too steep a drawback. Rather, maybe it should be something that increases incrementally while you are not at war. Years of peace drag on with the Eater of Worlds imposing a higher and higher upkeep on your ships and troops to maintain its blessings, until it hits a crippling 200% upkeep as the Eater becomes ravenous, demanding you FIGHT something. ANYTHING. NO MORE PEACE! NEVER PEACE!

Some kind of Peace Exhaustion, which is cured by going to war?

That could be interesting for several empire types.

 

[MHC]

This entire thing convinced me of two.

1. It's a beta. I doubt those figures are close to final. And I'd rather them get the rough idea out the door so we can play with it and give them feedback before they sink a lot of effort into making the feature and trying to "balance" it in isolation. So if they just slapped some nominal figures on to get it shipped. That's fine by me.

2. Sometimes things need nerfing. And sometimes changes in other areas (combat having limited disengagement chances) will break the mechanics in others (psionic max evasion destroyers). I think we can separate between the *idea* of the content. And the exact numbers and bonuses involved.

 

[Thiend]

1. It's a beta. I doubt those figures are close to final. And I'd rather them get the rough idea out the door so we can play with it and give them feedback before they sink a lot of effort into making the feature and trying to "balance" it in isolation. So if they just slapped some nominal figures on to get it shipped. That's fine by me.

2. Sometimes things need nerfing. And sometimes changes in other areas (combat having limited disengagement chances) will break the mechanics in others (psionic max evasion destroyers). I think we can separate between the *idea* of the content. And the exact numbers and bonuses involved.

That's basically my stance. Psionic components could make a big difference here, and although some of the numbers aren't good (and in fact I think the bonuses could probably be doubled without psionics being better than biological or synthetic ascension), even if need for improvement is what repeated testing shows, these are all conceptually way more interesting than psionics was last patch.

I'd never have considered Eater of Worlds before, and while the penalty is much too harsh it looks interesting to me in a way it just didn't before. Same to the others - sure, the Composer should probably get pop assembly, but it's interesting now. The Instruments seem to be focused on absorbing other populations into a slave empire with bonuses to make that actually quite strong. The only one conceptually flawed is Whisperers, mainly I think because of hasty math on big changes - the penalty almost entirely negates the bonuses and the loss in peripheral resources means you'll probably have less research with it than without it. But barring numbers changes (and I think they all probably need to go up a bit at least) these are all conceptually great, and before they weren't.

I'll reserve any ire for if, assuming psionics really feels weaker than the other ascensions still, psionics doesn't get better before the non-beta release. I'm not actually sure it's worse anymore, the combat changes have in my opinion made the special components much much stronger.

 

[charm3d47]

it seems some other people have already voiced this concern, but i'm gonna go ahead and add my voice to the pile: i feel like there aren't enough options for roleplaying "good guy" psionic empires. i'd love to see an option to gain (perhaps smaller but still significant) bonuses from permanently refusing a covenant. i also feel like telepaths as basically being "mind control cops" feels really wrong with egalitarian empires, so it would be nice for egalitarians (or just generally empires with the democratic authority) to at least get some alternative to the "thought enforcement" tech