Stellaris Dev Diary #272 - The Pact is Signed and Spoken

[-Marauder-]

1. It's a beta. I doubt those figures are close to final. And I'd rather them get the rough idea out the door so we can play with it and give them feedback before they sink a lot of effort into making the feature and trying to "balance" it in isolation. So if they just slapped some nominal figures on to get it shipped. That's fine by me.

2. Sometimes things need nerfing. And sometimes changes in other areas (combat having limited disengagement chances) will break the mechanics in others (psionic max evasion destroyers). I think we can separate between the *idea* of the content. And the exact numbers and bonuses involved.

1. That's exactly why we need to give feedback now and point out how absurd these changes are. That they're creating Psionics in isolation is exactly my point. They're not factoring in that Synth Ascension has a +25% bonus production on everything for example (+30% with a single trait). The argument that "it's just beta" is a terrible one, when exactly are we supposed to do math, give feedback, and point out that the changes are bad if not now?

2. The hell are you talking about. Yes sometimes stuff needs nerfing, Synth Ascension for example. Which has been cruising by without nerfs for years now. Spi Ascension did not need nerfs in any way shape or form. And no, Spi did not "magically break something" or whatever other excuse you're trying to use.

That's basically my stance. Psionic components could make a big difference here, and although some of the numbers aren't good (and in fact I think the bonuses could probably be doubled without psionics being better than biological or synthetic ascension), even if need for improvement is what repeated testing shows, these are all conceptually way more interesting than psionics was last patch.

I'd never have considered Eater of Worlds before, and while the penalty is much too harsh it looks interesting to me in a way it just didn't before. Same to the others - sure, the Composer should probably get pop assembly, but it's interesting now. The Instruments seem to be focused on absorbing other populations into a slave empire with bonuses to make that actually quite strong. The only one conceptually flawed is Whisperers, mainly I think because of hasty math on big changes - the penalty almost entirely negates the bonuses and the loss in peripheral resources means you'll probably have less research with it than without it. But barring numbers changes (and I think they all probably need to go up a bit at least) these are all conceptually great, and before they weren't.

I'll reserve any ire for if, assuming psionics really feels weaker than the other ascensions still, psionics doesn't get better before the non-beta release. I'm not actually sure it's worse anymore, the combat changes have in my opinion made the special components much much stronger.

Sure thing. -5% Ship Upkeep and +25% speed is totally going to turn things around. Especially when it goes into the same slot as Shield Hardening/Armor Regeneration. The components aren't impactful enough and vie for Aux slots, which are absolutely overcrowded already and highly contested.

Components aren't going to change that Psionic Ascension produces pops vastly slower than any other Ascension, by a huge margin. And also has on average LESS efficient pops. Especially compared to Synthetic Ascension. Which both assembles pops, and has pops which without a covenant already outproduce Psionic Pops by a huge degree.

You're saying that "Instrument" gives bonuses which are strong, do you mean the 10% buff? The one Synths get simply from researching Synthetic Tech?


Look, I get the whole "Keeping hope" thing. But we've been doing that for years now. And it consistently ended up the same. Synthetic Ascension being the strongest, and Psionic Ascension usually ailing somewhere in the background. The reason it was decent now, was because Teachers of the Shroud allowed early conquest and expansion. They're somewhat knee capping that here.

We can already see some of the stuff and do the math. Pointing out that 2/5 picks on the Psionic Tradition tree are dead and useless should be done now, during beta. Pointing out that this is a huge nerf to Psi Pop productivity, and some of the covenants might outright negate their own bonuses should be done right now so they can look at the math.

 

[Septin]

I like the changes of the mechanics in the Shroud Covenants, makes them more interesting. However, some of the bonuses are just absolute trash. Like less trait picks on the Composer of Strands... just why? It should be the other way around with it giving you more trait picks. Also the Whisperers in the Void, a measly +10% Research Speed and +15% Monthly Influence for a loss of -15 stability, just what? Chosen Governor bonus for Instrument of Desire is also pretty terrible except for the extra stability, it totally screws over non-slaving empires. That bonus should just be a lesser straight bonus boost to pop resource output in general. I also think Covenants shouldn't have any negative stat penalties associated with them. They should rather use something like a tribute system with your Covenant rank being decided with how much tribute/devotion/homage you are paying/offering up to your Patron rather than being time based. Eater of Worlds for example could accept destroying enemy pops, ships, armies or planets as tribute given that it is focused on war and conflict. Negative covenant events should also still happen but should be much rarer on high covenant ranks.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Interesting update, but a few questions / lingering concerns.

Every patron provide different bonuses, but they follow the same structure:

• Upon forming the covenant: weak empire modifier.
• After 5ish years:
• After 15ish years: the weak empire modifier is replaced with a stronger one.
• After 30ish years:
• After 50ish years

With the distinction that it's 50 years after the covenant forms, I think it's important to note that getting to the covenant remains the most frustrating/weakest point of Psionic Ascension, given the draw dynamics for Psionic Theory in particular. 50 years after a covenant you can get at year 30 is quite different than 50 years after something locked behind a tech you may not draw until year 50, or 70, is quite different.

While it's very much appreciated that there are ways to build for it at the start (1 dedicated origin, 1 origin which guarantees it as an option at opportunity cost), Psionic Theory remains extremely RNG. The psionic theory given-options like Zroni or anamolies are very RNG. Finding the shroud enclave- and then getting the scry-my-fate for the proper anomalies, is RNG.. Getting any specific tech in the Tier 3 'everything's pre-requisite has been unlocked, here's a sea of high-value things' is hard, let alone one which is deliberately a rare tech. A long-standing objection to the ascension is that's it's too unreliable, but that unreliability isn't just the shroud, but in getting access to it period, compared to the reliability of actually researching other.


A possible solution is for the Shroud Enclave to offer a reliable guarantee of the tech option- possible as a tech option with the 'teach us your ways' option.

 

[MHC]

For all of the people wanting good guy covenant options, is there some literary template for noble-bright psionic stuff they could draw on? Most of the science fiction I'm aware of that has psionics leans more on the grim-dark side of things because that's just thematically more in line with a universe where fate is a thing etc.

I'm not really clear on the concept you guys want to role play. So the devs might be confused as well.

Marauder,

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing on a fundamental level with your math. Lots of posts in this thread have said much the same. So have many content creators.

I just think your tone isn't very constructive and honestly obscures a lot of valid points. "The devs can't do math and don't know how to make features properly" is not feedback. That's you being nasty. You could have said "It seems like some of the math was off when you guys were working to get this out the door. Here's where I think things aren't balanced properly. And the problems I can see." If you wanted to go further, you could go play some test games and participate in the feedback thread in other constructive ways that would help make the game better.

It's not about "keeping hope". It's about treating other human beings with respect and decency. I think it's reasonable to expect a professional, adult tone when you are talking to someone at their work about their job.

The team does a good job of listening to community feedback and input. They actually read this forum and interact with major content creators and participate in community events. I have been playing Stellaris for a long time and playing paradox games for longer. No one is perfect, but I'm quite happy with the overall direction the custodian team is taking things and with the quality of the work they've done. So, general human decency aside, they've earned the respect and trust of their long time players.

So let's try to keep things civil going forward. No one wants to read a nasty forum post. Not the long-time players doing the beta testing, not the devs, not the casual browsers of the forum. No one.

 

[Desperitus]

Hello. First time on forum.
I'm very interested in psionic covenants. I used to always think that psionic ascension was very weak. Now it's much more interesting. But I would like to understand whether it will be possible not to choose a covenant, but to raise a new entity in Shroud? It would be very interesting for me to elevate the collective-unconscious of my empire in conjunction with the mechanics of the protector of the universe or becoming a crisis.

 

[Draelian]

For all of the people wanting good guy covenant options, is there some literary template for noble-bright psionic stuff they could draw on? Most of the science fiction I'm aware of that has psionics leans more on the grim-dark side of things because that's just thematically more in line with a universe where fate is a thing etc.

I'm not really clear on the concept you guys want to role play. So the devs might be confused as well.

Marauder,

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing on a fundamental level with your math. Lots of posts in this thread have said much the same. So have many content creators.

Simplemente creo que su tono no es muy constructivo y honestamente oscurece muchos puntos válidos. "Los desarrolladores no pueden hacer matemáticas y no saben cómo crear funciones correctamente" no es una retroalimentación. Eso eres tú siendo desagradable. Podrías haber dicho: "Parece que algunas de las matemáticas estaban mal cuando estaban trabajando para sacar esto por la puerta. Aquí es donde creo que las cosas no están equilibradas correctamente. Y puedo ver los problemas". Si quisiera ir más allá, podría jugar algunos juegos de prueba y participar en el hilo de comentarios de otras maneras constructivas que ayudarían a mejorar el juego.

No se trata de "mantener la esperanza". Se trata de tratar a otros seres humanos con respeto y decencia. Creo que es razonable esperar un tono profesional y adulto cuando hablas con alguien en su trabajo sobre su trabajo.

El equipo hace un buen trabajo al escuchar los comentarios y aportes de la comunidad. De hecho, leen este foro e interactúan con los principales creadores de contenido y participan en eventos de la comunidad. He estado jugando Stellaris durante mucho tiempo y juegos de paradojas durante más tiempo. Nadie es perfecto, pero estoy bastante contento con la dirección general que está tomando el equipo de custodios y con la calidad del trabajo que han realizado. Entonces, dejando de lado la decencia humana en general, se han ganado el respeto y la confianza de sus jugadores de toda la vida.

Así que tratemos de mantener las cosas civilizadas en el futuro. Nadie quiere leer una publicación desagradable en el foro. Ni los jugadores veteranos que realizan las pruebas beta, ni los desarrolladores, ni los navegadores ocasionales del foro. Nadie.

About good psionics, I can only think of the SW Force, which could be a pacifist entity that gives you penalties to war weariness and fleet capacity, and the Path of Light, the religion of the Kalastar of Eberron (D&D), which it would be an egalitarian deity.

 

[Thiend]

1. That's exactly why we need to give feedback now and point out how absurd these changes are. That they're creating Psionics in isolation is exactly my point. They're not factoring in that Synth Ascension has a +25% bonus production on everything for example (+30% with a single trait). The argument that "it's just beta" is a terrible one, when exactly are we supposed to do math, give feedback, and point out that the changes are bad if not now?

2. The hell are you talking about. Yes sometimes stuff needs nerfing, Synth Ascension for example. Which has been cruising by without nerfs for years now. Spi Ascension did not need nerfs in any way shape or form. And no, Spi did not "magically break something" or whatever other excuse you're trying to use.



Sure thing. -5% Ship Upkeep and +25% speed is totally going to turn things around. Especially when it goes into the same slot as Shield Hardening/Armor Regeneration. The components aren't impactful enough and vie for Aux slots, which are absolutely overcrowded already and highly contested.

Components aren't going to change that Psionic Ascension produces pops vastly slower than any other Ascension, by a huge margin. And also has on average LESS efficient pops. Especially compared to Synthetic Ascension. Which both assembles pops, and has pops which without a covenant already outproduce Psionic Pops by a huge degree.

You're saying that "Instrument" gives bonuses which are strong, do you mean the 10% buff? The one Synths get simply from researching Synthetic Tech?


Look, I get the whole "Keeping hope" thing. But we've been doing that for years now. And it consistently ended up the same. Synthetic Ascension being the strongest, and Psionic Ascension usually ailing somewhere in the background. The reason it was decent now, was because Teachers of the Shroud allowed early conquest and expansion. They're somewhat knee capping that here.

We can already see some of the stuff and do the math. Pointing out that 2/5 picks on the Psionic Tradition tree are dead and useless should be done now, during beta. Pointing out that this is a huge nerf to Psi Pop productivity, and some of the covenants might outright negate their own bonuses should be done right now so they can look at the math.

Components include the ones already existing that are better in a new fleet balance. Specifically disengagement from the drive. The new ones are okay, they could probably stand to be made passive.

As for Instruments, I was referring to the Instruments-specific chosen one governor. The one with +30% slave output and 5 stability to combine nicely with existing psionic bonuses and the Instruments amenity bonuses to also prevent slaves from fighting back.

 

[DeanTheDull]

It's not about "keeping hope". It's about treating other human beings with respect and decency. I think it's reasonable to expect a professional, adult tone when you are talking to someone at their work about their job.

It's also about not making some basic omissions and factual errors in a math-fight.

I'm all for critiquing relative benefits, but if you want to compare stat bonuses, it's not going to be 'synthetic 30% versus Psionic maybe 10.' It's going to be 'compared to the 20% you're getting from having two telepaths per world,' and now a 'and 50% on one lucky world in particular,' on top of 'and the benefit of the psionic trait itself,' which has its own inherent % modifiers not being mentioned. You can absolutely argue these aren't always available (small colonies), or come with higher tradeoffs (building slot), but they absolutely exist, and ignoring them is either a bad faith attempt to argue a false construct, or ignorance.

It's also not '300% ship upkeep'- it's a ship upkeep increase when not at war, which is trivially avoided, and even that after a massive empire naval capacity buff for power projection influence gains. Or a 7.5% decrease in economic output in all things in exchange for nothing- at a point in the game where maxing out on stability (and thus no loss) is quite possible- but in exchange for not only an empire-wide science production boost (science from telepaths), but 10% research rate, a benefit that is literally an ascension perk.



Like, there's absolutely valid lines of critique to make. Pop assembly really is too good to pass up if you're not going to war early and often, and normal empires really need access to bio-assembly as an alternative to early defaulting to robotics. Some of the bonuses are currently weak- espionage may grow strong in the future- while others will probably always be weak- pop growth bonuses in the midgame of a successful empire.

But if you're not going to cover your bases when critiquing, yeah, an adult tone would probably help not be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Draelian]

Hello. First time on forum.
I'm very interested in psionic covenants. I used to always think that psionic ascension was very weak. Now it's much more interesting. But I would like to understand whether it will be possible not to choose a covenant, but to raise a new entity in Shroud? It would be very interesting for me to elevate the collective-unconscious of my empire in conjunction with the mechanics of the protector of the universe or becoming a crisis.

Let's see, currently you can have no pact, the reward you get is giving up non-random bonuses in exchange for giving up non-random penalties.

In that sense, the easiest thing would be for the benefit of the absolute rejection to be a greater cooldown of the shroud and an amount of the power of the random buffs and penalties and how the shroud mark, something that enhances one of these things:

Jump motors, a psi shield upgrade module, or an upgrade to psionic ship seers.

The reason for this? Which are the technologies that you can get from events of the Shroud, so if we consider that the hypothetical mark of the Shroud must represent something of this, these are the interesting technologies to this.

 

[dulahan]

What about if Psionics had some special 'traits' that were exclusive too? Like instead of just "Latent" and "Psionic" (And of course the two Chosen variants) there was something like gradients? Latent, Telekinetic, Telepathic, Clairvoyance, etc?

Something with that might be a way to help make it a little more on par with the others, especially given RNG and the likes. Also give us a way to direct what sort of psionic we are?

the one that penalizes traits probably changed so you can still pick those but not non-Psi stuff?

 

[FleetingRain]

I think Ethics Shift Chance and/or negative Ethics Attraction would fit Whisperers better than negative Stability. If the voices help me know whether p=np and tell me my rival's worst secrets, they surely will try to spread communism too.

 

[Cry_Havok]

For all of the people wanting good guy covenant options, is there some literary template for noble-bright psionic stuff they could draw on? Most of the science fiction I'm aware of that has psionics leans more on the grim-dark side of things because that's just thematically more in line with a universe where fate is a thing etc.

I'm not really clear on the concept you guys want to role play. So the devs might be confused as well.

The fundamental problem with covenants, lore wise, is a religious society (which again, religious mechanics are lacking but that is a topic for another day) is just selling their souls en masse to often the first demon lord/eldritch entity they meet. This is just, exceedingly weird (particularly given certain Toxic God events). Societies should be looking for their own honored dead/gods in the shroud, and either find them, or reject the pretenders when they don't find them.

 

[dulahan]

Another Psionically Ascended inspiration from Science Fiction would be the Vorlons (and perhaps some of the other First Ones) from Babylon 5. they were very much a Psionic Race. And in the process transcended their physical forms entirely, which could be another way to differentiate Psionic Ascension in the very late game - some way to Trascend to energy/psionic forms for your main race. In the same way that Synthetic can ascend to basically upload themselves or Biological to... whatever you want to be.

EDIT: Star Wars Force Ghosts would be another variant of this, likely the earlier stage in said evolution. Or even to some extent Eldar in 40k with their 'lost on the path' stuff or Farseers turning to crystal - though they're a bit of a stretch.

 

[aragonnetje6]

That is quite a Parabolan name you've got there, Mr Cosmogone!

 

[Thiend]

The fundamental problem with covenants, lore wise, is a religious society (which again, religious mechanics are lacking but that is a topic for another day) is just selling their souls en masse to often the first demon lord/eldritch entity they meet. This is just, exceedingly weird (particularly given certain Toxic God events). Societies should be looking for their own honored dead/gods in the shroud, and either find them, or reject the pretenders when they don't find them.

Spiritualists and materialists are just entirely screwed up IMO. Sure, spiritualists might not prioritize robots, but once they exist and ask if they're alive the spiritualist has a 50-50 shot of saying "yes" and the materialist has a 50-50 shot of saying "we wanted better slaved automatons, disassemble ASAP." This is putting aside that the main current problem and complaint with psionics would be entirely negated if the ethic it was nearly required to be paired with didn't entail making the only generic pop assembly drastically more difficult to use.

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

Another Psionically Ascended inspiration from Science Fiction would be the Vorlons (and perhaps some of the other First Ones) from Babylon 5. they were very much a Psionic Race. And in the process transcended their physical forms entirely, which could be another way to differentiate Psionic Ascension in the very late game - some way to Trascend to energy/psionic forms for your main race. In the same way that Synthetic can ascend to basically upload themselves or Biological to... whatever you want to be.

EDIT: Star Wars Force Ghosts would be another variant of this, likely the earlier stage in said evolution. Or even to some extent Eldar in 40k with their 'lost on the path' stuff or Farseers turning to crystal - though they're a bit of a stretch.

This is already in the game. It's called Become the Crisis.

Anyway, I think it's silly to start complaining about Shroud lore now, many years after it was first introduced. It was always an eldritch realm filled with unfathomable "demons", and Psionic ascension was always to some extent about tapping into occult and forbidden powers. It should not suddenly get sanitized - if you want to be psionic in Stellaris, you must accept the eldritch aspect of it. If you want to roleplay a puritanian religious society with their own gods, then just don't take the psionic techs and ascension path, since they're most definitely "heretical".

But like I said before, it still ought to be at least somewhat viable to not form a covenant. Covenants are supposed to be a dangerous tradeoff between risk and reward, and while the expanded features for them are super cool, the fact that they are now basically mandatory is less cool.

 

[Gali77]

With Cybernetics being fixed I can probably let psionic ascension just go to the wayside. Hey you don't like covenants because they are rng and have horrible downsides. Well what if we made their benefits take longer, because psi ascension must wait and pay for what everyone else gets now, and added new penalties. That will make them take it. No I will not take a covenant as long as the random events to punish me exist. Your persistent desire to nerf psi ascension in this rework astounds me.

Oh and for people arguing about how pathetically weak psi ascension is remember that its main pop benefit uses up pops, for the slowest growth ascension , but only works on worlds above 25 pop. And can people stop factoring in the ship components. I have not gotten all three in a game for months and usually get 0-1 but I do get a lot of ship weapons damage bonus while at peace.

 

[Cry_Havok]

This is already in the game. It's called Become the Crisis.

Anyway, I think it's silly to start complaining about Shroud lore now, many years after it was first introduced. It was always an eldritch realm filled with unfathomable "demons", and Psionic ascension was always to some extent about tapping into occult and forbidden powers. It should not suddenly get sanitized - if you want to be psionic in Stellaris, you must accept the eldritch aspect of it. If you want to roleplay a puritanian religious society with their own gods, then just don't take the psionic techs and ascension path, since they're most definitely "heretical".

But like I said before, it still ought to be at least somewhat viable to not form a covenant. Covenants are supposed to be a dangerous tradeoff between risk and reward, and while the expanded features for them are super cool, the fact that they are now basically mandatory is less cool.

People have been complaining about shroud lore every time it gets brought up since Utopia was released

 

[dulahan]

This is already in the game. It's called Become the Crisis.

Anyway, I think it's silly to start complaining about Shroud lore now, many years after it was first introduced. It was always an eldritch realm filled with unfathomable "demons", and Psionic ascension was always to some extent about tapping into occult and forbidden powers. It should not suddenly get sanitized - if you want to be psionic in Stellaris, you must accept the eldritch aspect of it. If you want to roleplay a puritanian religious society with their own gods, then just don't take the psionic techs and ascension path, since they're most definitely "heretical".

But like I said before, it still ought to be at least somewhat viable to not form a covenant. Covenants are supposed to be a dangerous tradeoff between risk and reward, and while the expanded features for them are super cool, the fact that they are now basically mandatory is less cool.

I gotta disagree on that, or rather, I'd say Vorlons become the Crisis, sort of... but were already ascended and that's just an additional pick. Though really the better analogy is they're an awakened Fallen Empire. But that's quibbling, the big point is they're the sort of thing that could be looked at as a possible way to do things. And see an earlier point in the thread about not wanting to be a villain, why not a way to transcend physical state without killing the galaxy? Seriously...

As for the latter bit? If not at the time that the entire thing is being reworked, when? I already never took covenants despite playing Psi almost exclusively, so it's not like my feeling there is new.

And despite that? We do obviously agree on the last bit!

With Cybernetics being fixed I can probably let psionic ascension just go to the wayside. Hey you don't like covenants because they are rng and have horrible downsides. Well what if we made their benefits take longer, because psi ascension must wait and pay for what everyone else gets now, and added new penalties. That will make them take it. No I will not take a covenant as long as the random events to punish me exist. Your persistent desire to nerf psi ascension in this rework astounds me.

Oh and for people arguing about how pathetically weak psi ascension is remember that its main pop benefit uses up pops, for the slowest growth ascension , but only works on worlds above 25 pop. And can people stop factoring in the ship components. I have not gotten all three in a game for months and usually get 0-1 but I do get a lot of ship weapons damage bonus while at peace.

Don't forget the other sorts can honestly get their benefits quicker than ever before, at least if the videos I've seen from Montu are correct! So even the rush aspect of Psionics isn't as much an advantage as before.

 

[-Marauder-]

Components include the ones already existing that are better in a new fleet balance. Specifically disengagement from the drive. The new ones are okay, they could probably stand to be made passive.

As for Instruments, I was referring to the Instruments-specific chosen one governor. The one with +30% slave output and 5 stability to combine nicely with existing psionic bonuses and the Instruments amenity bonuses to also prevent slaves from fighting back.

1. Why would you ever pick the Governor, which only affects a single sector, over the Ruler. +10% Happiness/+15% Trade Value will almost always beat that, unless you're playing a 'tall' slaver Empire. And if you do, most of your income will likely come from subjects.

2. The only disengagement I see in the notes is one for an Admiral. Which means A SINGLE FLEET has it. None of the four Aux components has disengagement chance. A single fleet isn't going to matter for long. Any Empire will field a dozen fleets as a starter before too long.