Stellaris Dev Diary #273 - A Peek into the Future

[Beagá]

I want it now

I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW I WANT IT NOW

 

[currylambchop]

Speaking of Rogue Servitors, they're also still unable to pacify Amoebas… please fix this.

empath hive pacify amoeba pls

 

[TrotBot]

empath hive pacify amoeba pls

in general, more empires should be able to pacify if they're not xenophobes. even Fanatic Egalitarian Militarists should be able to pacify, because in their fanatic egalitarian utopia, they have some hippies who care less about war and more about fauna and they still gotta keep them happy too.

 

[Calvax]

in general, more empires should be able to pacify if they're not xenophobes. even Fanatic Egalitarian Militarists should be able to pacify, because in their fanatic egalitarian utopia, they have some hippies who care less about war and more about fauna and they still gotta keep them happy too.

It makes sense that even militarist authoritarians should be able to pacify. You don’t have to be a democracy to exploit animals. It’s even a plot point in some sci-fi, Farscape had a central plot all about an authoritarian regime trying to domesticate living starships.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Those techs shouldn't increase the upkeep of jobs that exclusively produce non-resources. (Trade, Amenities, Stability, etc.)

My apologies! I was under the impression this whole time that it affected all of them, particularly Merchants, because the tech said that upkeep from jobs too went up by 10%/20%/30%. I did not realize that there was this exception!

So, I stand corrected.

Though perhaps it suggestions that maybe the tool-tip or description could stand having an improvement in wording so that the effect is clearer.

Thank you, and I'm sorry.

 

[Thiend]

The thing that I think the devs are working with but haven't nailed yet is that psionics has two major downsides attached to the upsides. First, no pop assembly (which is associated with the baseline psionics buffs) and second covenant downsides (which, naturally, are tied to covenant upsides). There's also random shroud boon/maluses but while sometimes I've gotten a military buff at peace or debuff at war broadly I don't think those are actually a big deal either way. They feel fair, not like an advantage or disadvantage, including the special ship components (assuming you get them and have zro and have the ability to harvest it).


Pop assembly is far and away stronger than the baseline psionics buffs. It really was before the beta too, but since the other ascensions got MORE pop assembly and the baseline psionics buffs still disappear relative to tech buffs (since they're additive) by midgame, it's an even greater disparity. 20% more resources is additive, 20% more pops is multiplicative (and you'll have an advantage in pops much higher than 20%). You can conquer to get more pops, but the other ascensions can too (arguably better, because they can modify their pops to be the way they want and psionics cannot). So that's a loss for psionics.

Now, what about covenants? I've thought about this for a while, the best analog the others have to covenants is gene modding/robomodding. The benefits from covenants are actually, broadly... Lower than pop modding. I don't mean considering the permanent or random downsides, I mean just the upside is worse than pop modding or roughly the same depending on covenant, both with 3.6 and before. And it still has downsides!

Seriously, compare any one covenant (because you can only have one) to a species customized with biological or synthetic ascension for that same purpose - the only ones where psionics has a relative advantage you'll notice are ironically the Eater and Whisperers. The Eater bonuses are gone inside of three repeatables (or just otherwise having better tech, achievable easily with other ascensions due to the mentioned job output|pop assembly disparity) and it has huge downsides. The Whisperer has relatively better upsides because they don't disappear from tech, but they're also broadly irrelevant - espionage isn't very good right now, and influence is incredibly abundant by simply maintaining a halfway competent fleet. And that one has extremely bad downsides too!

I'm not gonna get mad at the devs over this like some people have, psionics is genuinely hard to balance because it works in a completely different way than the other ascensions do. But they need to figure out "what is psionics better at/worse at/completely different at" compared to the other ascensions and make sure they basically balance the columns, as it were. It's much more interesting in 3.6 than before, but it's still not very good.

 

[Thiend]

As I see, Psionic covenant is basically selling your people for these Shroud gods. It honestly doesn't seem like ascending for me.
What about an option "Making a Shroud God of our own"? I mean, Shroud covenant is "reaping benefit first, taking consequence later". Please give us psyker an option to pay a hefty price in order to reaping huge benefit. Can make it mirror the current pantheon.
Example: You choose between cowering to a god or "We will make a deity of our own".
Start a special project, paying sacrifice to get a "Psionic God" trait on your current ruler, which make him/her immortal. There will be variation of the trait, depending on the sacrifice:
- At 50% progress, you choose between:
+ "Property Sacrifice" which net you -50% resource from Job for 3600 days. This gives your Ruler "Greedy Deity" trait, +20% resource from Job. Also, random events once per 10 years will add a rare deposit on one colonized planet and increase that planet's size by 1.
+ "Intelligence Sacrifice" nerve-stapled all Pop on one planet. These Pops will be flagged as unmodifiable, and give "Curious Deity" + 25% researcher output. Once per 10 years, your empire will also gain a random rare/event only technology or 5 repeatable level on a random tech if there is no tech left.
+ "Fertility Sacrifice" - a planet with highest Pop count get "Sterilized" modifier with permanent -1000% pop grow speed. Your Ruler gains "Lust Deity" and gives +25% pop growth speed and disable pop growth ceiling penalty. Also, once per 10 years, a random planet will get "Breeding Frenzy" that gives +100% pop growth speed and -50 stability for 720 days.
+ "Blood Sacrifice" - sacrifice 100 undesirable pop. You will get an event chain count the number of Pop you purged, and only after you purged 100 Pop does you gain the benefit. Ruler gain trait "Bloodthirsty Deity" that give +25% armor/shield penetration, +25% hull damage (for every weapon) and +25 tracking. This will also unlock "Blood Sacrifice" Colossus weapon - it kills all Pop on a planet and permanently give +0.5% weapon damage and 0.5% ship fire rate for every Pop killed. Blood Sacrifice Colossus can be used on any planet including your own, but will give the same relation penalty as using World Cracker.
+ "Sacrifice Everything" - destroy all colony except the Capital, dismantle all outpost and destroy 50% of your fleet. Your Ruler immediately gets the trait "Ultimate Deity" that gives +100% ship hull point, +1% daily hull regeneration, +50% armor/shield hardening, +100% resource from Job, +100% research speed, +100% pop growth speed, +200% colony development speed and +100% monthly influence. Also, a Superior Shroud Entity will spawn under your control, which will get stronger as you kill Pop (basically, and End of the Cycle under your control). Doing this also unlocks Armageddon bombardment, Purge regardless of ethics, and Devouring total war CB toward everyone (and permanent -1000 opinion).
Also, every above trait will pass into the new ruler if the old one is dead/kicked from office in democratic vote. So player doesn't need to worry about their costly ruler dying/losing votes.

I like this conceptually, but some of those numbers are... Off. I'd be happy to try that exactly as described except for the permanent buffs from the colossus killing pops - that's one repeatable of each type per 10 pops it kills. That's obscenely overpowered. If that lasted 5 years it might still be overpowered.

Also, you could just make it an empire modifier like the other covenants.

 

[Idle America]

Speaking of the future of Stellaris, and - this may be better placed in the "Suggestions" forum, but here goes:
- What about a "Nothing to Something" starting point in Stellaris that enables you to start BEFORE Space-Age tech is obtained, so you are basically one of those civilizations on a planet that has a more advanced alien species watching over you (or experimenting on you - randomized perhaps as to how brutal they are).

And then you essentially try to elevate yourself in spite of your slow start, but there could be something much like a "Prequel" of movies, where a good portion of game time is spent dealing with your non-Space Age situation.

Just an idea....

I think that would have to wait until ground combat is overhauled. Imagine starting off with a War of the Worlds scenario as the UNE, ending with the conquest of Mars using captured tech.

 

[-Marauder-]

I meant "if it's currently increasing the upkeep of Clerks and the like, that's a bug, because we changed it from job upkeep to productive job upkeep a while ago, since we didn't want it to charge you for things it wasn't improving".

Oh, I'm aware. But there are Empires which genuinely concentrate on TV. Even a federation structured around it. TV IS a resource generating job. So it seems weird that the techs don't apply to it. Feels like they really should.

 

[Psykhes]

My point wasn't that it doesn't have an effect. But to effectively get the value of "1" influence a month. So anything genuinely noticeable. You'd need the base value of roughly 7 influence income. The way the bonus works, the more it benefits you, the less you need it. The bonus income when you are influence starved is absolutely negligible, while once you enter the times of plenty it likely won't matter to you anymore.

By that logic it would be pointless to pick the Expansion tradition early because the -10% influence cost for starbases is "absolutely negligible".
That is just silly. *Especially* when you are influence starved any influence bonus is strong.

I totally agree that the Covenant bonuses are not good enough.
But claiming that +15% influence is not noticeable is simply not true.

 

[-Marauder-]

By that logic it would be pointless to pick the Expansion tradition early because the -10% influence cost for starbases is "absolutely negligible".
That is just silly. *Especially* when you are influence starved any influence bonus is strong.

I totally agree that the Covenant bonuses are not good enough.
But claiming that +15% influence is not noticeable is simply not true.

There's a difference between getting +15% bonus on 3 Influence, and getting -10% from 75. Just because the % numbers are similar doesn't mean the actual numbers they provide are similar. Because there's a difference based on the number they're based on. Also, the -10% stack with various other modifiers which allow players to all but slash the cost of outposts in half if they're a bit lucky.

Then again, many people do not take Expansion as their first tradition for a plethora of reasons, some don't take it at all. And unlike Whisperer, Expansion doesn't come with a stability and unity penalty, and has no random events killing up to 8 pops, your highest level leader, etc.

 

[Leylos]

I always like new galactic resolutions but I sure hope you are planning to add additional ways to speed up resolutions otherwise most of these will never see play anyway as it takes far too long right now to vote a new resolution.

 

[Thiend]

There's a difference between getting +15% bonus on 3 Influence, and getting -10% from 75. Just because the % numbers are similar doesn't mean the actual numbers they provide are similar. Because there's a difference based on the number they're based on. Also, the -10% stack with various other modifiers which allow players to all but slash the cost of outposts in half if they're a bit lucky.

Then again, many people do not take Expansion as their first tradition for a plethora of reasons, some don't take it at all. And unlike Whisperer, Expansion doesn't come with a stability and unity penalty, and has random events killing up to 8 pops, your highest level leader, etc.

I take expansion to spam habitats with a lower penalty to empire size (and, very early, the other bonuses are pretty nice). If the outpost cost reduction wasn't available at effectively the start of the game, the ONE time influence is actually scarce, it would be worthless - just like 15% is by the time you can get Whisperers. Note can, not will - RNG and all.

 

[Interesting Meat 222182]

I like this conceptually, but some of those numbers are... Off. I'd be happy to try that exactly as described except for the permanent buffs from the colossus killing pops - that's one repeatable of each type per 10 pops it kills. That's obscenely overpowered. If that lasted 5 years it might still be overpowered.

Also, you could just make it an empire modifier like the other covenants.

Yeah, I just write it at the sprout of the moment. The number might be too OP for my taste (but maybe psionic need that much number to compete with the obscene amount of Pop/Job/efficiency of others ascension perk. Plus I think +100% growth and -50 stability are more of a heavy penalty.
I did agree that the Colossus weapon buff is too powerful when I calculate it. If you kill 1000 pops (about 15-20 planets) it give you +500%. That alone is enough for Arc Emitter to wreak any composition even with 75% hardening. 0.2% per Pop might be a better number, 25 Pop for 1 repeatable. Plus I think the relation penalty should be bigger, it is one thing to destroy world to kill enemies, it is another to sacrifice their people for power.
Also, the EotC-expy should also turn your empire into a crisis the moment you do so. The obscene buff should be neutralized by full hostility from everyone.

 

[Psykhes]

There's a difference between getting +15% bonus on 3 Influence, and getting -10% from 75. Just because the % numbers are similar doesn't mean the actual numbers they provide are similar. Because there's a difference based on the number they're based on. Also, the -10% stack with various other modifiers which allow players to all but slash the cost of outposts in half if they're a bit lucky.

Then again, many people do not take Expansion as their first tradition for a plethora of reasons, some don't take it at all. And unlike Whisperer, Expansion doesn't come with a stability and unity penalty, and has random events killing up to 8 pops, your highest level leader, etc.

And the difference is what exactly?

You save up that influence for the outposts with your influence per month. There are other sources, but the vast majority comes from the monthly income.
If we assume a 3 base income (and it does not matter if it is 3 or 5 or 7, the ratios do not change):
Without any bonus you can afford a new outpost every 25 months.
So with the 10% reduction that's every 22.5 months.
With a 15% bonus instead that's every 21.7 months.

Sure, with xenophobic, leaders and so on the 10% reduction from expansion can be stacked to a greater effect. And, as said, it also benefits from other influence sources.
But the 15% bonus from whisperer is effective for all influence costs, not only outposts.
And no, not every players picks Expansion. But it is still rated in pretty much every guide or tier list I've seen as one of the best early Tradition picks.
Overall the effective influence bonuses from Expansion and Whisperer are pretty equal.


Does that mean Whisperer is worth it?
Hahaha, no. God, no. It is still horribly imbalanced IMO.

But that does not make a 15% influence bonus "insignificant". It is as itself not a bad bonus.

It is just that the complete package is bad. IMO they should remove either the bad random events or the bad permanent effects of the Covenants entirely. Both together is too big a disadvantage.

 

[-Marauder-]

I take expansion to spam habitats with a lower penalty to empire size (and, very early, the other bonuses are pretty nice). If the outpost cost reduction wasn't available at effectively the start of the game, the ONE time influence is actually scarce, it would be worthless - just like 15% is by the time you can get Whisperers. Note can, not will - RNG and all.

Might want to rethink that. Planets/Habitats contribution to Empire size is actually not as big as people often think. Most of it tends to come from Population. Which means reducing that usually benefits you way more. I do agree on Influence tho. It matters the most when Whisperer delivers the least.

And the difference is what exactly?

You save up that influence for the outposts with your influence per month. There are other sources, but the vast majority comes from the monthly income.
If we assume a 3 base income (and it does not matter if it is 3 or 5 or 7, the ratios do not change):
Without any bonus you can afford a new outpost every 25 months.
So with the 10% reduction that's every 22.5 months.
With a 15% bonus instead that's every 21.7 months.

Sure, with xenophobic, leaders and so on the 10% reduction from expansion can be stacked to a greater effect. And, as said, it also benefits from other influence sources.
But the 15% bonus from whisperer is effective for all influence costs, not only outposts.
And no, not every players picks Expansion. But it is still rated in pretty much every guide or tier list I've seen as one of the best early Tradition picks.
Overall the effective influence bonuses from Expansion and Whisperer are pretty equal.


Does that mean Whisperer is worth it?
Hahaha, no. God, no. It is still horribly imbalanced IMO.

But that does not make a 15% influence bonus "insignificant". It is as itself not a bad bonus.

It is just that the complete package is bad. IMO they should remove either the bad random events or the bad permanent effects of the Covenants entirely. Both together is too big a disadvantage.

Yes, it is a bad bonus. Influence matters a lot less now than it used to matter. There are many, many, many ways now to increase influence, including spamming vassals. The influence bonus of whisperer is the most important when you get the least out of it.

If rapid expansion is the goal, then you want Outpost Reductions.
- Interstellar Dominion is 20% (and 20% influence, if you don't go for a Colossus this helps late game which conquest).
- Xenophobe is 20/40% respectively. (and you can opt out of it/shift to regular xenophobe once it served it's purpose.)
- Reach for the Stars is 10%.
- Expansionist Ruler Trait is 15%

Just going for the "assured ones" would mean you'd end up with -70% influence cost. With expansionistic leader which in an Oligarchy/Democracy can be rolled for if you're lucky you'd be at 85%. Even at 70% reduction you'd only be paying 22.5 influence per Outpost. The reason why outpost cost reduction is so much better when you aim for rapid expansion is that it's escalating, while influence increase is linear. Even with just Fanatic Xenophobe and Reach for the Stars you'd halve the influence required. Which means whisperer would need to give you double influence to compete.

A 15% influence increase is a big nothing burger. Especially with influence being worth so much less than it used to be.

 

[Psykhes]

Might want to rethink that. Planets/Habitats contribution to Empire size is actually not as big as people often think. Most of it tends to come from Population. Which means reducing that usually benefits you way more. I do agree on Influence tho. It matters the most when Whisperer delivers the least.

Yes, it is a bad bonus. Influence matters a lot less now than it used to matter. There are many, many, many ways now to increase influence, including spamming vassals. The influence bonus of whisperer is the most important when you get the least out of it.

If rapid expansion is the goal, then you want Outpost Reductions.
- Interstellar Dominion is 20% (and 20% influence, if you don't go for a Colossus this helps late game which conquest).
- Xenophobe is 20/40% respectively. (and you can opt out of it/shift to regular xenophobe once it served it's purpose.)
- Reach for the Stars is 10%.
- Expansionist Ruler Trait is 15%

Just going for the "assured ones" would mean you'd end up with -70% influence cost. With expansionistic leader which in an Oligarchy/Democracy can be rolled for if you're lucky you'd be at 85%. Even at 70% reduction you'd only be paying 22.5 influence per Outpost. The reason why outpost cost reduction is so much better when you aim for rapid expansion is that it's escalating, while influence increase is linear. Even with just Fanatic Xenophobe and Reach for the Stars you'd halve the influence required. Which means whisperer would need to give you double influence to compete.

A 15% influence increase is a big nothing burger. Especially with influence being worth so much less than it used to be.

Can you make "Reach for the Stars" even stronger? Of course. But so what?
The fact is that "Reach for the Stars" is still a top pick in every tier list I've seen totally independently what other factors you have.
Or in other words, even if it is the only Outpost reduction you have it is a better pick than most other traditions. Even in its weakest form it is still worth it.
Which means that the Whisperer influence bonus is not bad in itself too.

Want to prove me wrong? Show me tradition tier lists which says "Reach for the Stars" is "insignificant" and only worth it if you have other Outpost Reductions for it to stack with. Good luck.

And quite frankly, this whole discussion about that influence bonus of whisperer is counterproductive for it getting fixed.
Because the whisperer has a ton of issues, but the influence bonus isn't one of them. Spending effort to "fix" it would be like trying to bandage an imaginary pimple on the face of a patient while he is missing a leg.

 

[Gabarius]

Any chance of sector customization?

 

[Thiend]

Might want to rethink that. Planets/Habitats contribution to Empire size is actually not as big as people often think. Most of it tends to come from Population. Which means reducing that usually benefits you way more. I do agree on Influence tho. It matters the most when Whisperer delivers the least.

Entirely correct, but when I've got a dozen new habitats that are all about to have almost no population planet contribution is relatively enormous - it's not about the total it will reach, it's about the mid game spike.

 

[Masked Ermine]

By that logic it would be pointless to pick the Expansion tradition early because the -10% influence cost for starbases is "absolutely negligible".
That is just silly. *Especially* when you are influence starved any influence bonus is strong.

I totally agree that the Covenant bonuses are not good enough.
But claiming that +15% influence is not noticeable is simply not true.

I think that's a context issue. Taking the 10% Expansion (or whatever the perk is that does something similar) early makes sense because you are influence starved (and have limited pop production thus even that buff to pop production is also nice) and it's a reduction in cost, and influence cost for claiming a system is ~90-100 influence, that ten percent reduction is like 10 (which at that point in the game is about what 3-5 months worth of influence production), but taking a 15% influence buff after you've ascended, by making a covenant with a shroud entity doesn't make sense because it would take about 8 months to get 3 (and a bit) influence out of the deal, whereas the first system you take after taking an Expansion trait/Expansion ascension perk gives you 9-15 influence (ostensibly) at that rate of exchange it would take two in game years at least to equal out the influence gained.... Also at that point in the game when you are ascending, you aren't as starved for influence, and you have means of producing influence that dwarves the 15% produced by the covenant that doesn't come with the negative debuffs or penalties.

IE whilst yes ultimately the values involved are similar the context of being able to take on those values aren't...and again taking Expansion isn't necessarily going to lead to significant debuffs (opportunity costs being negligible long term).