Stellaris Dev Diary #274 - 3.6.0.beta.final.final(1)v2 Copy

[TrotBot]

Utopias aren't stagnant though?

I mean if people have the freedom & leisure to do what they want, people tend to do interesting things. The early European scientists were generally nobles with the most utopian luxury of their day -- and what they did with that freedom was invent physics that changed our perception of the world.

That's where you get the +3 research from unemployed Utopians -- it's the future version of Sir Isaac Newton sitting under an apple tree, thinking.

That's what we see in history.

similarly, athenian participatory democracy with the well-rounded citizen who participated in philosophical debates, made art, did politics, etc... was only possible because the slave owning men who had rights under that democracy had a whole day of leisure and no work, which was all done by the slaves. who's to say we can't unleash the same kind of potential, the same kind of renaissance culturally, if we freed people from pointless drudgery and let them do something interesting with their lives, something fulfilling. what if we could free them from this labour, not by placing it on the shoulders of a slave class, but through increased automation.

 

[Thiend]

blah blah blah. i play stellaris for the space communist utopia. not for the "the better life is, the WoRsE iT iS aCtUaLlY!!!!!" cold-war propaganda

Is that "cold-war propaganda" or just... The mass starvation every single communist "utopia" has had as a direct result of it not working?

The only way to create a utopia for some is with massive oppression for others.

 

[Maethendias]

Utopias aren't stagnant though?

I mean if people have the freedom & leisure to do what they want, people tend to do interesting things. The early European scientists were generally nobles with the most utopian luxury of their day -- and what they did with that freedom was invent physics that changed our perception of the world.

That's where you get the +3 research from unemployed Utopians -- it's the future version of Sir Isaac Newton sitting under an apple tree, thinking.

That's what we see in history.

they inherently are by definition
a true utopia that provides everything to its citizens is stagnant
"if people have the freedom and leasure to do what they want, people tend to do interesting things" exactly, but they also tend to break down things just for the sake of watching something new happen
thats why every "utopia" has failed to this day

 

[Maethendias]

cold-war propaganda

wat

 

[HFY]

they inherently are by definition

Can you cite where you're getting your definition?

 

[Maethendias]

Can you cite where you're getting your definition?

noun
noun: utopia; plural noun: utopias
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.


perfection inherently is a state of stagnation, because there can be no improvement, it can only continue forward as it is OR break down
you can only maintain perfection, not improve, optimize or innovate on it

its one reason btw why in a capitalistic society you always want to have some sort of growth

 

[Abdulijubjub]

noun
noun: utopia; plural noun: utopias
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.


perfection inherently is a state of stagnation, because there can be no improvement, it can only continue forward as it is OR break down
you can only maintain perfection, not improve, optimize or innovate on it

its one reason btw why in a capitalistic society you always want to have some sort of growth

If I understand correctly, everyone else in this discussion is specifically talking about a society where physical needs are met, regardless of employment, in which people would be free to pursue their interests. And they're calling that "utopia" because it would be pretty great, and also because that's what the game calls "Utopian Abundance" (specifically, one aspect of a "utopia", the abundance part).

And your contribution is to say "nuh uh, that's not what utopia means. It means everything is perfect, and if everything is perfect, that means nothing can get better (since that would mean it's not already perfect), which means nothing changes, which means people are bored, which means it isn't perfect and people will want to destroy it".

 

[Maethendias]

If I understand correctly, everyone else in this discussion is specifically talking about a society where physical needs are met, regardless of employment, in which people would be free to pursue their interests. And they're calling that "utopia" because it would be pretty great, and also because that's what the game calls "Utopian Abundance" (specifically, one aspect of a "utopia", the abundance part).

And your contribution is to say "nuh uh, that's not what utopia means. It means everything is perfect, and if everything is perfect, that means nothing can get better (since that would mean it's not already perfect), which means nothing changes, which means people are bored, which means it isn't perfect and people will want to destroy it".

you know you can read it up yourself mr "nuh uh"

 

[HFY]

noun
noun: utopia; plural noun: utopias
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.


perfection inherently is a state of stagnation, because there can be no improvement, it can only continue forward as it is OR break down
you can only maintain perfection, not improve, optimize or innovate on it

its one reason btw why in a capitalistic society you always want to have some sort of growth

A non-stagnant society would be more perfect.

Therefore, by your definition, a utopia must be non-stagnant.

A perfect society does not mean an unchanging society. There can be multiple perfect societies, and moving from one set of perfect things to another set of also perfect things seems possible, especially when tech advances mean you can invent new things over time.

Anyway, you're missing 2/3 of the usual definitions:

noun
1. an imaginary island described in Sir Thomas More's Utopia (1516) as enjoying perfection in law, politics, etc.
2. (usually lowercase) an ideal place or state.
3. (usually lowercase) any visionary system of political or social perfection.

This is a more plausible definition, IMHO. There are plenty of fictional places or states which could be described as "ideal", and none of them would be unchanging or stagnant.

If I understand correctly, everyone else in this discussion is specifically talking about a society where physical needs are met, regardless of employment, in which people would be free to pursue their interests. And they're calling that "utopia" because it would be pretty great, and also because that's what the game calls "Utopian Abundance" (specifically, one aspect of a "utopia", the abundance part).

And your contribution is to say "nuh uh, that's not what utopia means. It means everything is perfect, and if everything is perfect, that means nothing can get better (since that would mean it's not already perfect), which means nothing changes, which means people are bored, which means it isn't perfect and people will want to destroy it".

Yeah and he's wrong about the definition, and also about the implication.

There is no requirement that "perfect" is a single point in feature-space rather than a zone which meets some criteria.

A society could go from one set of perfect institutions to another set of different institutions which are none the less also perfect, and the fact that tech advances over time -- allowing them new institutions -- would be a valid justification for why they didn't start at the endpoint of their feature-space walk.

 

[TrotBot]

perfect:

absolute; complete

perfect

1. complete and correct in every way, of the best possible type or without…

dictionary.cambridge.org

complete and correct in every way, of the best possible type or without fault:

Definition of PERFECT

being entirely without fault or defect : flawless; satisfying all requirements : accurate; corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1
a
: being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS
a perfect diamond
b
: satisfying all requirements : ACCURATE
c
: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
a perfect gentleman



3
a
: PURE, TOTAL
b
: lacking in no essential detail : COMPLETE
c
obsolete : SANE
d
: ABSOLUTE, UNEQUIVOCAL
enjoys perfect happiness



View attachment 908823

View attachment 908824


Relativism = Imperfect
Absolutism = Perfect

A perfect thing must be unchanging:


c
: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
a perfect gentleman

Theory of forms - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nonetheless, the theory is considered to be a classical solution to the problem of universals.[7]




Plus:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

noun
an imaginary island described in
Sir Thomas More's Utopia (1516)
as enjoying perfection in law, politics, etc.


View attachment 908825

View attachment 908826


There were slaves in the original utopia so Xenophobes keeping aliens as slaves while having utopian abundance is perfect.

Great. My utopia has no slaves and is not a joke but for real. If you want your utopia to be a crappy dystopia that is literally the worst place in the universe to live, for the memes, no one is stopping you. But that is never going to be forced on the rest of us, so your comments on this are pointless. Not everyone enjoys playing this game as a stupid joke.

 

[SeekingEtermity]

"Moved the repeatable technologies for strike craft into Society - Military Theory."

arent strike craft engineering weapons? this change makes no coherent sense designwise

Strike craft themselves are engineering, yes. Training their pilots better and boosting their relevant mental and physical capabilities is pure society (specifically, Military Theory), though.

Look, I think the devs have made plenty of bad decisions and shipped some amazing bugs, but give them some credit; they weren't going to just lift a pair of techs from one category and dump them in another without re-working them a little.

Of course, even after this, engineering still has too many repeatables, society arguably has too many repeatables now (the stupid army ones are a big part of the problem), and physics - once you get past the limited-repeatability ones - has. Four. That's it. One of which is even irrelevant for some armies; if you go for a pure-armor build[1], you have no use for the shield repeatable and hence there are only three! Also, physics already has the smallest number if disciplines (3), but none of the infinitely-repeatable techs use Computing so eventually you just don't need it at all.

[1] As is often wise, as armor has the best strength-boosting modules, the best regen from modules or auras, far fewer things that skip it, and the most absurdly OP weapon in the game is one sixth as effective against it while the most effective weapon against it is... actually a point defence turret, believe it or not, that's how bad plasma is. It also requires no power so your ships are fast and agile and get weapons boosts and can fit stuff like 3x advanced afterburner, though it does increase alloy costs.

 

[Thiend]

Great. My utopia has no slaves and is not a joke but for real. If you want your utopia to be a crappy dystopia that is literally the worst place in the universe to live, for the memes, no one is stopping you. But that is never going to be forced on the rest of us, so your comments on this are pointless. Not everyone enjoys playing this game as a stupid joke.

Making something obviously impossible (and not because it requires fantasy/scifi elements, as with say reanimation or the basic space travel premise of the game) would make this game a stupid joke. The most basic reason a utopia would be and is in reality a stupid joke is that not everyone wants the same things, which has meant in every attempt to create one either killing or enslaving all who want something different. You can't make both your authoritarians and egalitarians happy. "100% happiness" isn't real.

For example, Athens was an ideal society to many... With slavery, and questioning their ideal society got Socrates executed by the state. The only way to make that society ideal for some was by making it horrible for others and killing anyone who threatened that ideal, which means by definition it wasn't an ideal society - it was an ideal society for some.

Stellaris is grimly dystopian in every respect when you think about anything you do. Every ascension involves mandatory modification. Spiritualism appears to have been stripped of actual religion and falls to chaos gods. Materialism involves the mass-suicide of your entire species along with erasing their identity. You can use a colossus to kill every man, woman, child and dog on a planet as an egalitarian xenophile and literally nobody cares even though your society theoretically has a relatively free flow of information being egalitarian. As a fanatic egalitarian, you can still control exactly what jobs are available and unavailable, and arbitrarily unemploy someone because you don't need what they produce. As a pacifist you can still exterminate an entire species that you were previously enslaving until you decided you just don't need them. Every society we can discover either has been already or will be genocided by us specifically through the course of a dig site. In the course of the crisis we will be either hunted for sport or hunted for food or exterminated by a bored robot if we don't stop it. One of the earliest ways to establish contact with another empire is to find their species on an ancient menu wherein they are described as delicious.

A utopia is impossible in reality. Every attempt has produced massive suffering for any group that didn't conform. It also doesn't fit Stellaris at all, when every single other thing you can do is dystopian specifically. I don't want utopia to be a real option in Stellaris because it would cheapen everything in the game from "not too serious horror" to "completely unserious farce" if that was possible in the setting, which, just like reality, it is not.

 

[TrotBot]

You can't make both your authoritarians and egalitarians happy

I don't want to. Lots of them should be won over to the fanatic egalitarian faction. those that don't, should radicalize, become fanatic authoritarians and fanatic xenophobes, and go to war with me. In fact if you insist that my utopia must have a dystopian aspect, then i would accept a "kill the fanatic authoritarian and fanatic xenophobe space nzi factions in a civil war" being a requirement for my utopia to be stable, so maybe have civil war be an aspect of the ascension to utopia if you want.

A utopia is impossible in reality. Every attempt has produced massive suffering for any group that didn't conform. It also doesn't fit Stellaris at all, when every single other thing you can do is dystopian specifically. I don't want utopia to be a real option in Stellaris because it would cheapen everything in the game from "not too serious horror" to "completely unserious farce" if that was possible in the setting, which, just like reality, it is not.

Ok cool. My utopia having massive suffering for slavers and xenophobes is the downside, there now it's realistic according to your measure.

Also: too bad, deal with it! Stellaris makes utopia possible and not all scifi needs to be evil scifi.

 

[Losttruppen]

I don't want to. Lots of them should be won over to the fanatic egalitarian faction. those that don't, should radicalize, become fanatic authoritarians and fanatic xenophobes, and go to war with me. In fact if you insist that my utopia must have a dystopian aspect, then i would accept a "kill the fanatic authoritarian and fanatic xenophobe space nzi factions in a civil war" being a requirement for my utopia to be stable, so maybe have civil war be an aspect of the ascension to utopia if you want.


Ok cool. My utopia having massive suffering for slavers and xenophobes is the downside, there now it's realistic according to your measure.

Also: too bad, deal with it! Stellaris makes utopia possible and not all scifi needs to be evil scifi.

If you have to kill people you disagree with you aren't in utopia. After you kill them, and join in a harmonious union, another generation will be born and face different challenges from within and without your empire and you will have to kill them too if you want to maintain your status quo "utopia".

You would need to shut off all sources of new ideas within and without your empire in order maintain it, and that is itself dystopian and will most likely result in a Fallen Empire situation for you and yours while everyone else outside your borders continue to innovate and expand, including extragalactic things like the Prethoryn. Or are you going to go on a utopian crusade as well?

In order to build, enforce, and maintain your utopia you need to do dystopian things; it's a paradox.

 

[TrotBot]

If you have to kill people you disagree with you aren't in utopia. After you kill them, and join in a harmonious union, another generation will be born and face different challenges from within and without your empire and you will have to kill them too if you want to maintain your status quo "utopia".

You would need to shut off all sources of new ideas within and without your empire in order maintain it, and that is itself dystopian and will most likely result in a Fallen Empire situation for you and yours while everyone else outside your borders continue to innovate and expand, including extragalactic things like the Prethoryn. Or are you going to go on a utopian crusade as well?

In order to build, enforce, and maintain your utopia you need to do dystopian things; it's a paradox.

Perfect. Thiend said I'm only allowed to have a utopia in this game if it has "elements of dystopia". If my chosen elements of dystopia is "death to all authoritarians and xenophobes", and that is how i maintain my utopia for all my xenos and all my classes, then we are in agreement that this fits Thiend's requirement that any utopia stellaris allows have dystopian elements.

Constant civil wars against fanatic authoritarians and fanatic xenophobes, constantly murdering them, I'm down.

Now give me my utopia plz

And yes, I literally have been asking for Galactic Utopian Liberation War mechanics since Federations.

 

[Qorten]

Everyone quit discussing what a real utopia is in this thread, please. There is an OT-forum for that.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Losttruppen]

ok thanks, i got a little too worked up lol

He said you could keep discussing fake ones.

Is there anything stopping you from creating this Stellaris Utopia aside from the inability to purge your Primary Species or along Ethics lines? What tools are missing? As a pacifist you can use both Divine Enforcer and Global Pacifier Colossus weapons which sort of cover what I think you want.

 

[TrotBot]

He said you could keep discussing fake ones.

Is there anything stopping you from creating this Stellaris Utopia aside from the inability to purge your Primary Species or along Ethics lines? What tools are missing?

it's cool i'll wait on the internal politics DLC. that's enough weird arguments for today.

 

[Nox Trip]

It's on my radar, don't worry!

Could you look at starting with slavery guilds or indentured assests civic as a mega Corp cause every game no matter what when I start I change the slave type to live stock and they show unemployed livestock producing nothing.....

 

[ZeeHero]

Well, livestock knights got slightly less powerful. You'll just have to make do with a few servants as well.

I shall miss thee, Sir Moo. thou was't a valiant knight.