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Stellaris Dev Diary #288 - Payback and Insights

Nothing unites people more than a common enemy.

You know how the story goes: space invaders attack, and the people of the world unite, casting aside their differences to stand together against a shared threat. Together, they defeat the more advanced enemy, who foolishly underestimated the plucky underdogs.

But what happens after the story ends? The former invaders are still out there, and they won’t be fooled again. An awkward reunion is unavoidable.
I'm CheerfulGoth, a content designer on Stellaris, and this is the story I wanted to tell with Payback.


Payback is the “sibling” of Broken Shackles, two origins united by a common threat: Minamar Specialized Industries, a megacorp that provides pre-FTL enlightenment – for a price. While Broken Shackles focuses more on reconnecting with your past, Payback empires only see one thing in their future: revenge.

Payback Origin Tooltip


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The means of achieving that revenge are up to you. Annihilate your enemy? Turn your slavers into your slaves? Or battle them on the floor of the Galactic senate, outlawing their very business model? Even Pacifist empires will have the means to obtain their vendetta without betraying their ideals.

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Revenge doesn’t have to be synonymous with violence.
Don’t be too hasty in your quest for revenge, though. Rest. Take your time to rebuild. The war against MSI left you with a devastated planet... And the remnant of a battleship to be repurposed for your own needs.

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Make new allies (Broken Shackles empires might be particularly inclined to help you). Remember: revenge is a dish best served cold. Don’t wait too long, though, because the Minamar Specialized Industries surely won’t let you alone.

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You want to make them pay? The feeling is mutual.

We’re not so different, you and I​

The galaxy of Stellaris is already filled with extra-dimensional invaders, space dragons, and all kinds of unimaginable horrors. With Payback and Broken Shackles, we wanted to pit players against an enemy not so different from themselves. Minamar Specialized industry starts as a developed empire with extra colonies and resources, but otherwise behaves like a normal empire with a well-defined personality. They will make their own alliances, join their Galactic Community, wage their wars... and might even fall before you can get your due.

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What will you do when even revenge is stolen from you?

Many of our narrative Origins present a fixed story. With Payback, we wanted to create a less linear narrative, providing players with multiple tools to accomplish their goal. Sometimes things don’t go as planned, but we believe that’s what will make this origin more interesting and replayable.

We give you an enemy. You tell us how you want to pay them back.



Insights​


Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs.

A common issue that has been brought up in regards to this DLC is “Why shouldn’t I just invade the pre-FTLs the moment I meet them” and I am here to present a counter offer. What if I give you unique techs?

Insight Technologies are gained when you study pre-FTLs without making them aware of you. They are unique paths their society take which you have dismissed as dead ends. This is all tracked through a situation which, once completed, will make a future observation event grant you a new Insight.

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We can learn from anything and anyone.

If you haven’t completed the situation when you get an observation event instead you gain even faster progress to the next Insight.

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I am sure it’s nothing.

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These Insight technologies are designed to have unique and flavorful effects. So let me share a few with you.

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Let’s see how close we can get with our observation station.

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A smart hunter lets the environment aid their hunt.

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How were the pyramids built? Let's check!

As you can see these technologies grant you partial Envoys as well as a unique benefit. Therefore, the more you spy and study the pre-FTLs, the more you can do it!

Next week, Alfray Stryke will finally tell you about cloaking, and I might be back to help him explain the new civics!

 

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most importantly, you only lose the system if they actually reach FTL
all primitives that aren't at least in the Industrial Age have no realistic chance of getting into space before the game ends

so even if you're hopelessly paranoid you can observe everything from stone age to steam age with zero risk of system loss

even industrial age should technically be safe if you aren't going for a super long all crisis campaign

not to mention that you can literally just invade them the second they progress to early space age, after all your observation post "warns" you when it happens
 
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it's explicitly tied to the MSI so probably not

speaking of primitives, do they get the Insight tech you got out of them once they make it to the space age? they DID progress that way unlike you after all.
the fact that it IS tied so hard to the msi is a problem, and one of the biggest in stellaris as i have said time and time again

the way paradox treats stellaris "story" content inherently kills replayability

emergent storytelling is always better than inherent storytelling, sadly the dev team dont seem to understand that anomalies, events, and origin stories lose their value almost instantly after one playthrough (again, not to mention the restrictiveness that comes by trying to forcefeed a specific story into gameplay mechanics, like machines and purifiers being absolutely excluded for an origin that, outside the context of a megacorp doing megacorp things, would make much more sense for them than for anyone else)
 
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With Payback/Broken Shackles and Imperial Fiefdom we are getting an increasing number of origins and empires that will never spawn unless the player takes one. There are also an increasing number of "canon" nations that very rarely spawn. Can we have an option to play in a fully "canon" galaxy where all prescripted empires spawn, including Imperial Fiefdom and all the MSI related empires? I imagine the Blorg would have some interesting actions with MSI, and the Kilick I am sure would have many angry words for them.
the fact that we still dont have an option to play in a truely random galaxy without "canon" nations is way worse than the other way around imo
 
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By the same metric, what is the use of a single system, and a single planet with only up to 28 pops on it?
Even by mid game, 30 pops is pretty inconsequential. Some of those techs look pretty juicy, like -30% empire size from districts. I typically play on large and 5x planets, that -30% from districts alone is worth a couple dozen researchers and bureaucrats by mid game. More than I'd get from a primitive planet.
No it's not. Actually look at how much districts add to Empire size.
 
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I love that we are now getting rewards for playing nice, for once. Unique techs sound quite flavorful, I just hope that there are benefits for keeping primitives pampered and oblivious once you run out of techs (extra influence or diplomatic weight bonuses for maintaining primitive preserves could be quite fitting).

Also, super intrigued about the new civics and the cloaking tech. Will enigmatic engineering be actually useful? Stay tuned!
 
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I love that we are now getting rewards for playing nice, for once. Unique techs sound quite flavorful, I just hope that there are benefits for keeping primitives pampered and oblivious once you run out of techs (extra influence or diplomatic weight bonuses for maintaining primitive preserves could be quite fitting).

Also, super intrigued about the new civics and the cloaking tech. Will enigmatic engineering be actually useful? Stay tuned!
enigmatic engineering is awesome, it blocks AI from looting your tech and makes spying on you harder as well
it even blocks the spy action for stealing tech entirely

might not be the best ascension perk but it's definitely not the worst either
 
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I like the idea of getting some buffs for not invading pre ftls. This will definitely alter some of my playthrough


Now thinking of some debuffs, if I did invade a pre ftl civ and they rebelled successfully would that civ start as a broken shackle / payback origin?

Could some pre ftl civs have a link to Minamar, so if I take them over pre ftl planet then Minamar demands the sector by handed over to them or they declare war you on if you refuse. Having the risk of advanced ai come after you early game could be a hinderance, of course if you comply with them then possible alliance?

Could / there be another origin / role play option for xenophile empires, now with cloak science ships. Go out, discover pre ftl diva and guarantee their independence, so if they do get invaded then you can come to their aid. New achievement - come to the aid of 5 pre ftl races and beat back the invaders.
 
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0.25 Envoys? Time to cut Jafr, Son of Utra, in pieces!

Also... what if... what if I get my insights... and THEN invade?

How unfriendly! My friend, you really need to be visited by the Blorgs.
 
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Okay but what's your point? How is this an argument against 'Payback should be allowed to be FP'?
 
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Really liked how you can get "partial" Available Envoys now. This gives you more flexibility to add additional envoys to some techs and edicts, without necessarily committing to a full extra unit.
 
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Did you played the blasted DLC and came from the future to make this criticism? No? in this case, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, guard your criticism for after you have played the blasted DLC, not before!

Some people love to complain just for the sake of complaining. :mad:
 
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Pre-FTL civilizations that beat off a FTL attack should trigger some sort of event. I believe at the moment, if you lose an invasion, nothing will happen.
this is extremely likely going to be tied to Awareness, i wouldn’t be surprised if it advanced their progress to the stars too.
 
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The hiring and upkeep costs of leaders is no longer negligible and we have pressing need for more Envoys. Is there a plan/intention/aim to make Envoys like Governers, Scientists, Admirals and Generals; not limited by an Empire Quota, but hired from the leader screen in the amounts the player needs/wants?

What are the benefits of Leader Pool system over the Quota system and vise versa? (besides the obvious 'workhours spend')
 
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most importantly, you only lose the system if they actually reach FTL
all primitives that aren't at least in the Industrial Age have no realistic chance of getting into space before the game ends

so even if you're hopelessly paranoid you can observe everything from stone age to steam age with zero risk of system loss

even industrial age should technically be safe if you aren't going for a super long all crisis campaign

not to mention that you can literally just invade them the second they progress to early space age, after all your observation post "warns" you when it happens
Am I the only one who thinks it's pointless to expand upon this very concept?
You'll pay money to do what you described, just in a more fancy way.
 
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I'm just going to copy my post from reddit.



I'm glad you guys are aware of the problem. Is Paradox really just jumping on the seasonal model bandwagon as it appears? The last couple batches of Origins have been, let's say inflexible. Either they are so mechanical focused that they are one trick ponies, or, so narratively rigid that there is only a couple of reasonable ways to tell the story. Unless it's for pure power reasons, like say Clone Army, they don't have any real replay value. Eladrin praises you consistently as some of the best around, what are you guys doing to fix it? Do you even intend to? I know Eladrin has remarked that Origins effect the early game too much and then fall off, and he wanted them to have more of an impact throughout the game, so I assume at least some of this follows from that, but to be frank, it sucks. Stellaris is pretty mediocre at telling discrete stories. It's got too much RNG, and it's too great at emergent storytelling. Why aren't you doubling down more on that? You can see it in the player counts on Steam. Dev diaries and the like drive hype, which I don't entirely begrudge - I get it, you guys need to make money, but the player numbers spike for a month and then they disappear again until you guys start the hype cycle anew for the next release. And while this isn't a serious multiplayer game, where day to day retention matters, it feels bad value wise. Or at least to me it does.



Except you failed to that. You give us the target, the goal, the motive, and the 3 ways of completing it. How isn't this the red/green/blue endings to Mass Effect? Non-linear would be something like Lost Colony, where sure, you get the goal and the motive, but they are vague enough that the tale is yours to make of it what you will. You don't have third parties, on both sides of the equation to act as minders to keep you on task.



This won't stop you from invading pre-FTL's. All this does is delay it. And even then most of the time it won't, judging by the power levels suggested there. I would have to run the math, but gut math says that just taking the pops and putting them to work is, on average, outright better than any of the 3 presented. The only real 'boon' is the increased Envoy's, where .25 of an Envoy 'feels' kinda bad. They really should be .5 at a minimum. If for no other reason than to account for the increased envoy usage.

Which leads me to ask, where is the additional ways of interacting with these societies? Cause technically there are 2 new Espionage abilities, giving you the ability to pseudo control MTTH to even make these techs farmable. Otherwise it's all stuff we can do right now. You just moved some of it from the normal station to Espionage. Even the 'train heist' isn't really interacting with them, it's just another variation on dealing with the rogue scientist who went and made crop circles, or proclaimed himself a god to the locals, and now we have to deal with *him* rather than *them*. It's why I pointed to Planet States before. I would link to it but the author hid it. If we could do more things like that, instead of making them full fledged empires, raise them to a baseline tech level, but not have them be star seeking. Allow you to basically create your own Enclave. Have them give you missions like in the TNG episode Half a Life where the people were smart/advanced enough to generate a theory to fix their sun that was unstable but lacked the ships to test it, so had to ask the Federation for help. Sure, everyone loves Naky, but I think that is more of a narrative problem rather than one of mechanics. It's a small loss to move your science ship that you use to assist research to go handle the problem and return.

Those would give me reasons not to just immediately invade and have some actual story play.
Not everyone plays Stellaris for the min/max or to commit war crimes. Some of us play it for the roleplay and the roleplay only!

OF COURSE its a non gestalt fucking origin again

OF FCKING COURSE IT IS

at this point they HAVE to be doing it on purpose

yeah, purifiers totally cant use an origin thats basically tailor made for them
machine intelligences obviously cant use an origin that would acutally make sense for them

no

15 bucks btw, and they couldnt even be bothered
not like revenge is basically the undercurrent motivation for most rogue ais in sci fi

btw, for a good read about exactly that: Chrysalis
(on another note, wtf is with links here, forum just FREAKED out)

No, this Origin isn't "tailor made" for Fanatic Purifiers. Fanatic Purifiers are delusional fools thinking themselves to be superior to all other life in the galaxy and want to destroy them at any cost -- they don't need a excuse/Origin to explain that! But Fanatic Xenophobes? that is another story. This Origin is tailor made for them.
 
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Why are Fanatic Purifiers locked out of Payback? Wouldn't it make sense for a primitive society to turn xenophobic and genocidal after being invaded by an alien force?
 
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Why are Fanatic Purifiers locked out of Payback? Wouldn't it make sense for a primitive society to turn xenophobic and genocidal after being invaded by an alien force?

You can not gain Fanatic purifiers, it's a nation's foundational belief, a fundamental idea that not only are the Xenos evil, but they are not real. The payback empire has had relations with Xenos, and while they have been burned, they have to admit that the Xenos are real nations.
 
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No, that don't make any sense at all. Think of the Payback empire like being the Imperium of Man (from Warhammer 40K; they hate the xenos, but are not above making ocasional alliances with them) and the Fanatic Purifiers being the Harvesters (Independece Day and Independence Day: Resurgence).
 
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