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Stellaris Dev Diary #288 - Payback and Insights

Nothing unites people more than a common enemy.

You know how the story goes: space invaders attack, and the people of the world unite, casting aside their differences to stand together against a shared threat. Together, they defeat the more advanced enemy, who foolishly underestimated the plucky underdogs.

But what happens after the story ends? The former invaders are still out there, and they won’t be fooled again. An awkward reunion is unavoidable.
I'm CheerfulGoth, a content designer on Stellaris, and this is the story I wanted to tell with Payback.


Payback is the “sibling” of Broken Shackles, two origins united by a common threat: Minamar Specialized Industries, a megacorp that provides pre-FTL enlightenment – for a price. While Broken Shackles focuses more on reconnecting with your past, Payback empires only see one thing in their future: revenge.

Payback Origin Tooltip


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The means of achieving that revenge are up to you. Annihilate your enemy? Turn your slavers into your slaves? Or battle them on the floor of the Galactic senate, outlawing their very business model? Even Pacifist empires will have the means to obtain their vendetta without betraying their ideals.

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Revenge doesn’t have to be synonymous with violence.
Don’t be too hasty in your quest for revenge, though. Rest. Take your time to rebuild. The war against MSI left you with a devastated planet... And the remnant of a battleship to be repurposed for your own needs.

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Make new allies (Broken Shackles empires might be particularly inclined to help you). Remember: revenge is a dish best served cold. Don’t wait too long, though, because the Minamar Specialized Industries surely won’t let you alone.

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You want to make them pay? The feeling is mutual.

We’re not so different, you and I​

The galaxy of Stellaris is already filled with extra-dimensional invaders, space dragons, and all kinds of unimaginable horrors. With Payback and Broken Shackles, we wanted to pit players against an enemy not so different from themselves. Minamar Specialized industry starts as a developed empire with extra colonies and resources, but otherwise behaves like a normal empire with a well-defined personality. They will make their own alliances, join their Galactic Community, wage their wars... and might even fall before you can get your due.

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What will you do when even revenge is stolen from you?

Many of our narrative Origins present a fixed story. With Payback, we wanted to create a less linear narrative, providing players with multiple tools to accomplish their goal. Sometimes things don’t go as planned, but we believe that’s what will make this origin more interesting and replayable.

We give you an enemy. You tell us how you want to pay them back.



Insights​


Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs.

A common issue that has been brought up in regards to this DLC is “Why shouldn’t I just invade the pre-FTLs the moment I meet them” and I am here to present a counter offer. What if I give you unique techs?

Insight Technologies are gained when you study pre-FTLs without making them aware of you. They are unique paths their society take which you have dismissed as dead ends. This is all tracked through a situation which, once completed, will make a future observation event grant you a new Insight.

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We can learn from anything and anyone.

If you haven’t completed the situation when you get an observation event instead you gain even faster progress to the next Insight.

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I am sure it’s nothing.

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These Insight technologies are designed to have unique and flavorful effects. So let me share a few with you.

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Let’s see how close we can get with our observation station.

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A smart hunter lets the environment aid their hunt.

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How were the pyramids built? Let's check!

As you can see these technologies grant you partial Envoys as well as a unique benefit. Therefore, the more you spy and study the pre-FTLs, the more you can do it!

Next week, Alfray Stryke will finally tell you about cloaking, and I might be back to help him explain the new civics!

 

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Guys, you need to stop seeing ethics in such an absolutist way. The simple fact that a culture is NOT militaristic, does not mean that they do not have an army, do not know what war is and beat their enemies with roses (unless, on the contrary, that culture is particularly pacifist).
An empire which does NOT define xenophilia or xenophobia among its ethics means that it does not feel particular distrust towards other species, but it is not that it trusts too much either. Everything falls somewhere in the middle unless you define it with a specific ethic.
You're also seeing ethics in a biased way, though? Being xenophile isn't actually defined as "trust" in aliens, it's defined as generally having positive emotions towards other species and cultures. It's possible that a payback empire comes to dislike aliens because of their bad experiences with MSI, but it's also possible that they might instead feel a sense of comraderie with all the other cultures oppressed by MSI and seek to create a galaxy in which this would never happen to any pre-FTL civilisations again. Wouldn't that society be a xenophile one, considering that it's motivated by a desire to preserve and save alien cultures?

Overall, I generally think it's a bad idea to restrict peoples roleplays for basically arbitrary reasons. As long as it's possible to imagine an empire that could develop in such a way, why bother restricting it from people who'd want to roleplay that?
 
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Because MSI literally was trading with them before revealing the price of their aid
and, again, what makes you think that wouldnt be able to completly change their culture?
may i remind you that it happend before, not even 100 years ago?
small things can have big impacts, especially when those things are ... "negatively charged" cough cough
revenge is also known to be a notion that very quickly spirals out of control
 
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You're also seeing ethics in a biased way, though? Being xenophile isn't actually defined as "trust" in aliens, it's defined as generally having positive emotions towards other species and cultures. It's possible that a payback empire comes to dislike aliens because of their bad experiences with MSI, but it's also possible that they might instead feel a sense of comraderie with all the other cultures oppressed by MSI and seek to create a galaxy in which this would never happen to any pre-FTL civilisations again. Wouldn't that society be a xenophile one, considering that it's motivated by a desire to preserve and save alien cultures?

Overall, I generally think it's a bad idea to restrict peoples roleplays for basically arbitrary reasons. As long as it's possible to imagine an empire that could develop in such a way, why bother restricting it from people who'd want to roleplay that?
like i said, emergent vs inherent storytelling
 
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They were probably asking about the "a fundamental idea that not only are the Xenos evil, but they are not real" part.
Purifiers are barred from all diplomacy with Xenos, they do not acknowledge xeno states other than war/peace as required by game mechanics. Payback empires, by their very nature, have done diplomacy, and it is in fact a diplomacy based origin that is defined by it interactions with the former opressor and the broken shackles empire.
 
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You're also seeing ethics in a biased way, though? Being xenophile isn't actually defined as "trust" in aliens, it's defined as generally having positive emotions towards other species and cultures. It's possible that a payback empire comes to dislike aliens because of their bad experiences with MSI, but it's also possible that they might instead feel a sense of comraderie with all the other cultures oppressed by MSI and seek to create a galaxy in which this would never happen to any pre-FTL civilisations again. Wouldn't that society be a xenophile one, considering that it's motivated by a desire to preserve and save alien cultures?

Overall, I generally think it's a bad idea to restrict peoples roleplays for basically arbitrary reasons. As long as it's possible to imagine an empire that could develop in such a way, why bother restricting it from people who'd want to roleplay that?
I can accept that point of view in order to enable a better game. I still think that in narrative terms this whole situation with a xenophile ethic becomes quite strange, but to hell with that. It is better that each one mounts his own story and not the one that the game intends.
 
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and, again, what makes you think that wouldnt be able to completly change their culture?
may i remind you that it happend before, not even 100 years ago?
small things can have big impacts, especially when those things are ... "negatively charged" cough cough
revenge is also known to be a notion that very quickly spirals out of control
Well, *it can* and lead to a fanatic xenophobe militarist culture coming out the other side.

Or it can leave them wanting to strive to make everyone free of the tyrants of MSI.

Now, whether it could be a purifier that comes out of it is a debatable question, but I suspect there are game play reasons, possibly related to the broken shackles origin empire you're also tied to, or possibly related to the game wanting you to have some possible diplomatic interactions with MSI itself once you find them, even if those interactions are hostile.
 
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You can not gain Fanatic purifiers, it's a nation's foundational belief, a fundamental idea that not only are the Xenos evil, but they are not real. The payback empire has had relations with Xenos, and while they have been burned, they have to admit that the Xenos are real nations.
By your logic, the moment a FP gets in a Hopeless War with a fallen empire, they have to lose their FP status. It's nonsense and fundamentally misunderstands what FP is.
 
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Well, *it can* and lead to a fanatic xenophobe militarist culture coming out the other side.

Or it can leave them wanting to strive to make everyone free of the tyrants of MSI.

Now, whether it could be a purifier that comes out of it is a debatable question, but I suspect there are game play reasons, possibly related to the broken shackles origin empire you're also tied to, or possibly related to the game wanting you to have some possible diplomatic interactions with MSI itself once you find them, even if those interactions are hostile.
Ejemmm...
Just to illustrate your comment.
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Will the Payback origin be eligible for automatically generated AI empires, given that it overrides the galaxy setup parameters (for pre-FTL civilizations, and so forth)? Or, like with Imperial Fiefdom, is the origin only picked for player-designed empires (whether played by a player or force-instantiated as an AI empire by the game creator)?
 
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Did played the blast DLC and came from the future to make this criticism? No? in this case, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, guard your criticism for after you have played the blasted DLC, not before!

Some people love to complain just for the sake of complaining. :mad:
When you are as experienced as I am, with both heavily modded builds and beta testing total overhauls, it's not hard to draw conclusions/make predictions on what is offered. Especially when so many are outright arguing over easily done math.
 
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When I prebuild (Which I almost always do so that I only have to touch planets once a decade), on 5x planets as an egal xenophile, district size alone can jack up my tech costs by 10% by mid game.

Then it sounds like you are hilariously overbuilding your feeder worlds.

That 30% won't help that. It's going to knock off ~2% because that is how math works.

Also, 5x, really? Why?


This is all a matter of perspective. I refuse to play what's meta. Because that is boring as all hell. I am also a rper and not a power gamer. You are acting as if your experience in the game, is the end sum of everyone's experience in the game, and it emphatically is not.

It has nothing to do with ones "experience" and everything to do with simple math.

Further, I kinda detest every time someone uses RP as an excuse to play poorly. You can be both a 'Power gamer' and RP. In fact I have no problem at all making the argument that knowing when and how to maximize output drastically increases the quality and range of RP as it allows you to better manipulate the AI into telling the stories you want to tell. Doubly so when it allows you to make 'bad' decisions and skirt by consequences without doing something as lame as opening the console.

For me, one primitive planet, even with 28 on it, is inconsequential by 2300. 28 pops is inconsequential when I'm already clocking 400, and by the time they lose stellar culture shock (as of the current build), I'll be hitting about 500 (because I set low growth paramaters, run growth focused (gene clinics, robot assembly, xenocomp, all migration treaties I can, and liberating slaves off the galactic market)).

All that paragraph tells me is that your opinion should be discarded because you have no idea how to do basic math, nor how the game works.

400 pops is obscenely low by 2300. I play on 1x planets and without touching either the slave market, nor invading anyone I typically sit around 1k.

28 pops is a flat, instant ~7% pop increase on 400 pops, which is *far* from inconsequential.

You should really stop using Gene-Clinics, they are a terrible investment.
The techs may not be worth while to you, but do not make the mistake of assuming your playstyle is the end all be all. I know mine certainly isn't. To anyone who has similar playstyle to me, the techs are good incentive, and depending on the playstyle, some of them might even be worth it. We don't have all the information yet, like maybe when cloaked, frigates move at the speed of a Juggernaut. That would make Predatory tactics in valuable for some builds.
"Playstyle" isn't a euphemism for bad. Some people enjoy ball torture too, it's not going to stop me from saying "Naw dog, I'm good".
 
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I am currently (in 2400) sitting at 32k research

By 2400. even with half that research, you should be so deep into repeatables that you have stopped caring about it because it no longer matters. Those "big numbers" you just pulled out of your behind aren't very impressive because they don't matter.

You also aren't likely to be just getting these at that point.
 
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Yap, according to your logic, it's better to trust what you don't know yet than what you've already experienced firsthand. What guarantee would I have that these "supposed" other civilizations do not even pose a greater threat than the original one?

Also, to look for allies, we do not need to be xenophiles, remember that we are talking about a popular taste for alien life, not a political strategy.

Yes, to look for allies we don't need to be xenophile. But we don't need to become a Fanatic Purifier just because we were invaded either. Stop. Seeing. Ethics. In. A. Absolute. Way. You don't need to go extreme in either direction (xenophile or xenophobe) to use Payback or Broken Shackles.
Besides, not every Stellaris player is a power gamer/war criminal min/maxing everything in a quest to obliterate/enslave all intelligent life in the galaxy -- some of us play Stellaris just for the sake of a good RP.
 
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Ejemmm...
Just to illustrate your comment.
View attachment 950443

Kid, the Greater Terran Union ISN'T a Fanatic Purifier empire. They are xenophobe, aunthoritarian and militarist with an dictatorship form of government. Stop. With. This. Rubbish.
 
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When you are as experienced as I am, with both heavily modded builds and beta testing total overhauls, it's not hard to draw conclusions/make predictions on what is offered. Especially when so many are outright arguing over easily done math.

Heavily modded builds, beta testing and math are all irrelevant to me -- all that matters is the roleplay and the fun.
 
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