Stellaris Dev Diary #298 - Renowned and Legendary Paragons

[Abdulijubjub]

The gestalt totally-not-council-positions seem fine.

.1 influence per level is not as good as an emperor, but it's better than the civic based ones. 3% assembly per level is stronk. 2% research per level is just the researcher one. And -3 deviancy per level is stealth really strong (irrelevant at the start or if you're servitors with a few very big and a bunch of very small planets), but a level 10 deviancy suppression node is the functional equivalent of 1.5 pops for free on every planet).

You can also remove all their negative traits (whereas you have to fire organic leaders to do so), plus they're immortal and get hefty XP bonuses, so you can probably assume they get to 10 every game.

got it, so as a gestalt player (as usual) the biggest part of the dlc are basically denied to me

well, at least its nothing new

As a gestalt, you have leaders who don't count against your cap serving on the council. You are free to specialize your "council" for 100% council traits (though you don't get to swap them out to get different ones at different times), and your field leaders will have better picks, with absolutely zero council options (since they literally can't serve on the council). And you start with 5 council positions (ruler plus 4 nodes) instead of 3, though unlike organics, you don't have the ability to add up to 3 more (or 4, for galactic sovereigns).

The converse to "you don't get to add more council positions" is that you don't have to spend your precious council agenda time ramping up the "expand the council" agenda. From what I can see, it gives you +1 council position, runs to its conclusion, then takes away the extra council position when it finishes (though it could be that the duration is just a cooldown to keep you from instantly going up to 5 council positions). (If my speculation is correct), that means you'll be able to run more agendas at once as a gestalt.

Not getting paragons is a bummer, though. I hope they add an exception for RS, Empaths, and Driven Assimilator in the future, though. Or possibly allow e.g. Gaia Seeder hives to get the gaia seeder paragon, and other civic based exceptions.

Edit: I went back and checked the stream: +1 council position is the launch effect, and the agenda duration is just a cooldown. So you'll be able to skip 2 agenda cycles by starting with 5, but there's no ongoing benefit from getting 5 rather than being able to expand to 6. So that particular portion is not very helpful. You're equal footing until organics get their third civic, though, and only behind by 1 leader-slot-plus-scaling-bonus at that point (though all your nodes will probably be higher level on average, so you'll likely have more total benefit for much longer). I do wish gestalts had gotten different nodes based on civics, as it would add more variation, but I don't think what gestalts get is actually much weaker.

Also, gestalts start with 5 council positions (ruler plus 4 nodes), not 4 positions, as I originally said. Even stronger.

 

[Maethendias]

Worrying over scripted content seems baffling to me. I mean, Stellaris has always had scripted content since its very inception (anomalies, for starters), and it seems that this DLC is going to bring both emergent, non-predefined leaders, with compelling emergent narratives thanks to destiny traits, and pre-scripted ones with different unique abilities attached to cool unique art.

I mean, those two things can and will coexist, so where is the harm? Master of Orion 2 also had predefined leaders and it rarely got repetitive (albeit I would like to have a wider variety of legendary paragons if you ask me). Not to mention that this is far from being a narrative-focused DLC. Heck, the thing I am excited about the most is the whole "civics changing how the council works", with all the bazillion differences between governments that it will imply.

uhm, the problem with scripted content is that stellaris (at least originally) was and is kind of incompatible with scripted content, especially to the amount with which the game has become swarmed.

because above all else, scripted content, especailly things like anomalies, digsites and events completly ruin replayability, and what once was a feature quickly becomes a very big problem. Especially so for a 4x grand strategy that 1, already has problems with its static nature during mid/lategame, and 2, already has problems with the other pillars of its 4x structure (military, economy(especailly so btw) and technology)which are pretty much excessively underdeveloped, especially from a mechanical viewpoint

not to mention that the game was originally about "roleplaying" your interstellar civilization, rather than... telling predefined stories.... which kind of means that inherent storytelling is very much counterproductive to the original freaking vision of the game, unlike emergent storytelling, which is superior anyways.

especially, again, for a game about "roleplaying" an interstellar civ

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

got it, so as a gestalt player (as usual) the biggest part of the dlc are basically denied to me

well, at least its nothing new

Gestalts as a whole are a DLC feature, you can't expect every subsequent DLC to give you large amounts of new content that people who didn't buy the gestalt DLCs don't get. Furthermore, choosing to play as gestalt is to actively choose to ignore many features of the game such as happiness, consumer goods and trade. That has always been the case. It's an "easy mode". So complaining that they have less complex features added is a bit oxymoronic. If you want more depth and complexity, just don't play as gestalt.

 

[Maethendias]

Gestalts as a whole are a DLC feature, you can't expect every subsequent DLC to give you large amounts of new content that people who didn't buy the gestalt DLCs don't get. Furthermore, choosing to play as gestalt is to actively choose to ignore many features of the game such as happiness, consumer goods and trade. That has always been the case. It's an "easy mode". So complaining that they have less complex features added is a bit oxymoronic. If you want more depth and complexity, just don't play as gestalt.

see my footnote

 

[Abdulijubjub]

uhm, the problem with scripted content is that stellaris (at least originally) was and is kind of incompatible with scripted content, especially to the amount with which the game has become swarmed.

because above all else, scripted content, especailly things like anomalies, digsites and events completly ruin replayability, and what once was a feature quickly becomes a very big problem. Especially so for a 4x grand strategy that 1, already has problems with its static nature during mid/lategame, and 2, already has problems with the other pillars of its 4x structure (military, economy(especailly so btw) and technology)which are pretty much excessively underdeveloped, especially from a mechanical viewpoint

Every procedurally generated game relies on recombining pre-scripted/hand-crafted content into new variations each play. There's no such thing as a purely random game.

Without anomalies and things like pre-generated systems or digsites, what exactly do you imagine the eXploration phase of this game entailing? Stellaris doesn't have meaningful geography other than the topology of the hyperlane network, slight variations in randomly generated system deposits (all the big outliers are prescripted), and nebulas/black holes. It would just be a 3x without it.

If Stellaris didn't have world building/narrative elements in the form of anomalies and dig sites, it would just be a spreadsheet with a sparkly star background and a good soundtrack, and I would never have played it for more than 20 minutes.

Also, I can't disagree more strongly with the claim that the economy (and everything that interacts with it aka 90% of civics and traditions and ~60% of technologies) is mechanically underdeveloped. That's 90% of the game.

 

[Pyrolight]

Any chance of a Fanatic Purifier Paragon, or better yet let us turn the existing Legendary Paragons into mulch and steal all their goodies?

 

[Ajacoba]

Any chance of a Fanatic Purifier Paragon, or better yet let us turn the existing Legendary Paragons into mulch and steal all their goodies?

Well, they may be getting the xenophobe ones, and also may get the spiritualist or militarist ones depending on your choices

 

[TranscendentalDragon]

uhm, the problem with scripted content is that stellaris (at least originally) was and is kind of incompatible with scripted content, especially to the amount with which the game has become swarmed.

because above all else, scripted content, especailly things like anomalies, digsites and events completly ruin replayability, and what once was a feature quickly becomes a very big problem. Especially so for a 4x grand strategy that 1, already has problems with its static nature during mid/lategame, and 2, already has problems with the other pillars of its 4x structure (military, economy(especailly so btw) and technology)which are pretty much excessively underdeveloped, especially from a mechanical viewpoint

not to mention that the game was originally about "roleplaying" your interstellar civilization, rather than... telling predefined stories.... which kind of means that inherent storytelling is very much counterproductive to the original freaking vision of the game, unlike emergent storytelling, which is superior anyways.

especially, again, for a game about "roleplaying" an interstellar civ

There's an entire genre of videogames about roleplaying, and most of them are pre-scripted

 

[Maethendias]

There's an entire genre of videogames about roleplaying, and most of them are pre-scripted

kenshin isnt
rimworld isnt
dwarf fortress isnt
what else is somewhat comparable to roleplaying something thats more than just 1 character, and isnt pre scripted...
soase 2 isnt
the x - games arent
mnb isnt
skylines isnt
master of orion (and lets be real here, basically all of those kind of games arent, which includes and isnt limited to moe, galactic civ, star ruler, etc ) isnt



hell even 4x that DO have scripted content DONT have it as oppressive as stellaris does (mainly the endless series and the total war series), because they are still quite open and "free use" when it comes to their scripted storytelling



i think the point is obvious

not a single game in the 4 x genre or in general has such a horrible experience when replaying it than stellaris does, especially considering that you cant acutally skip the "exploration" nonsense the game forces on you. Which means after your 4th replay all that great content is doing is bloat the filesize and be a chore to spam click through



If you think "technology, warfare and economy", which make up 80% of the game, would be proof that those aspects are mechanically refined... please tell me what is it exactly that turns stellaris highest production chain from "turn minerals into cg/alloys" into a mechanically refined or deep economy system? The largest production chain of the game being literally just 1 ware deep is kind of sad for a "grand strategy"

hell, THINK ABOUT THIS for a second: no mans sky has a significantly deeper economy system than stellaris....

same goes for technologies which have no discernable diffrences between ethics and empires, and dont even start about warfare, which is essentially completly devoid of tactical and strategical input. Essentially turning warfare into an economics game first and foremost

 

[James Fire]

and a good soundtrack

It's a really good soundtrack tho

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

not a single game in the 4 x genre or in general has such a horrible experience when replaying it than stellaris does, especially considering that you cant acutally skip the "exploration" nonsense the game forces on you. Which means after your 4th replay all that great content is doing is bloat the filesize and be a chore to spam click through

A point here. One of the X's **is** exploration. Asking to be able to skip the exploration stage of "Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate" seems an odd thing to as for when playing a 4X game.

If you think "technology, warfare and economy", which make up 80% of the game, would be proof that those aspects are mechanically refined... please tell me what is it exactly that turns stellaris highest production chain from "turn minerals into cg/alloys" into a mechanically refined or deep economy system? The largest production chain of the game being literally just 1 ware deep is kind of sad for a "grand strategy"

Consumer goods are then consumed to make other things depending on jobs and ethics. Research, unity, stability, amenities, edict fund, stability, ethics attraction, naval capacity, housing usage reduction, trade value, happiness, and population upkeep. Amenities feed back into keeping the population functioning, as does stability and happiness. Others have their own direct uses.
Alloys can be turned into population with roboticists or cyborgs; amenities, naval cap, and unity; and potentially planetary armies; pop growth and amenities.

So, it *is* a bit deeper than you suggest, especially when some of the resources feed back to indirectly increase production of other resources by affecting overall production of a pop.

Then again, "deep" economy systems aren't always a good thing, because the deeper an economy system is, the more fiddling around and micromanagement has to be done. We could have separate types of alloys for different purposes, but at the scale of running a multi-system empire that detail isn't really necessary - "refined industrial materials" (or alloys as they've called it) suffices for most purposes, with a few rare materials for specialist purposes also existing, but also very much generalised (we get exotic gasses rather than having to keep track of hundreds of different gases used in manufacturing and engineering for example).

hell, THINK ABOUT THIS for a second: no mans sky has a significantly deeper economy system than stellaris....

It can afford to because it's at a different scale. You're not ordering "100 battleships to be built by next Friday". You're focussing on what an individual or small group are doing, not an entire galactic empire. That means it's more practical and useful to require specific materials and construction chains to construct individual items.

The larger the scale of the game, the more abstract the economy can tend to become because after a certain point whether you're building in industrial ceramics or nano-fibre reinforced steel doesn't matter if you're handing conflicts on the scale of hundreds of ships under the control of one person.

 

[Ajacoba]

same goes for technologies which have no discernable diffrences between ethics and empires, and dont even start about warfare, which is essentially completly devoid of tactical and strategical input. Essentially turning warfare into an economics game first and foremost

I mean, war is always a matter of economics
You need to invest into research and then have to build the weapons for your armies

Whoever can afford the better research and more armies wins

Also there's a tactical and strategical input in your ship designs, imo
I usually go for generalist builds with carriers, rockets, brawlers and artillery ships, so my fleet can deal with all threats equally well, but if you fight someone or something specific and can figure out a flaw in their blueprints you can build your fleets to counter that
Or you can build fleets around specific strategies, for example a fleet of fast ships that stay at distance while shooting the enemy

Fighting the endgame involves such strategies for example since unbidden and scourge are highly specialized and can therefore be easily countered with builds that deal with those specialties

The grey tempest is pretty specialized as well with their small fleets of carriers, if you get point defense and artillery you can defend against their fighters and take down their main ships quickly

Cloaking also can be used strategically and since that tech is pretty rare and kinda tricky to use it doesn't even have the issue of being something literally every empire in the galaxy has

 

[Pyrolight]

Well, they may be getting the xenophobe ones, and also may get the spiritualist or militarist ones depending on your choices

Haha bet they make the xenophobe one a unique race so no one can actually get it.

 

[Hyomoto]

I just want an answer to a simple question: how do static leaders that appear randomly in every game make the galaxy feel more lived in? More specifically, why are these people paragons at all? Presumably "paragons" are people who have performed great feats or accumulated renown. These sixteen OCs are Mary Sue characters. They have no history, they aren't from anyone's galaxy, and yet they inhabit all of them. "Hey, look at how cool my PARAGON is! You DEFINITELY want them in your Empire! They are just so cool!"

Like, you guys added some basic history to *our* leaders to make them more than just a random. That's a cool little detail, and a bit of flavor. Yeah, it's just a number somewhere. But an administrator on one of my worlds becoming a great general is at least *some* kind of history, it's *some* kind of story. Unless the "hint" is that these are dimensional travelers striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time their next leap...will be the leap home! It doesn't hint at a wider galaxy.

I realize it would've been a lot more art to expand all the species portraits to offer up unique poses and more features so we could really get a sense of our own cultures, the ones we tend to identify with and roleplay as. It would've been much cooler though.

 

[James Fire]

I just want an answer to a simple question: how do static leaders that appear randomly in every game make the galaxy feel more lived in? More specifically, why are these people paragons at all? Presumably "paragons" are people who have performed great feats or accumulated renown. These sixteen OCs are Mary Sue characters. They have no history, they aren't from anyone's galaxy, and yet they inhabit all of them. "Hey, look at how cool my PARAGON is! You DEFINITELY want them in your Empire! They are just so cool!"

Like, you guys added some basic history to *our* leaders to make them more than just a random. That's a cool little detail, and a bit of flavor. Yeah, it's just a number somewhere. But an administrator on one of my worlds becoming a great general is at least *some* kind of history, it's *some* kind of story. Unless the "hint" is that these are dimensional travelers striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time their next leap...will be the leap home! It doesn't hint at a wider galaxy.

I realize it would've been a lot more art to expand all the species portraits to offer up unique poses and more features so we could really get a sense of our own cultures, the ones we tend to identify with and roleplay as. It would've been much cooler though.

Someone's salty

 

[Hyomoto]

Someone's salty

Is it you?

 

[PalmettoExplorer14]

This system gives me so many Master of Orion vibes.

So looking forward to the spiritualist renowned leaders

 

[James Fire]

Is it you?

You're the one that went on a rant about Mary Sue characters, so I don't think so.