Stellaris Dev Diary #30 - Late Game Crises

[TheGrinningMan]

What are ant achievements?

Achievements only unlockable by playing as collectivist fanatic arthropods.[/obviousjoke]

...but all joking aside, I'd bet money on achievements being in, as they are with every other Paradox game in recent memory.

 

[The_Red_Star]

Yes but it was an example that even in a grimdark wardriven universe like wh40k you eventually have to resort to a macguffin to defeat an enemy of that magnitude.

As for reality, no there are always multiple solutions (I'd say an almost infinite amount of them) to every problem. There will always be pacifist solutions, that said it's not certain that pacifist slutions are the best. They may rely on letting a lot of innocent people die, but they always exist.

An example for hitler would be to let hitler win and start working against the nazis from within. Sure he'd still manage to butcher millions more before you could take him down by peaceful means but given enough time it could have been achieved.

As for the Daesh I disagree but will not discuss current politics here.

No the ancients of stargate were not pacifist, and what happened to them? They ascended, what a horrible fate.
The wraith could have been dealt with by relocating the people of pegasus to the milky way, and a number of other solutions. The replicators were not dealt with by force they were contained in a time dialation field and then dropped into a black hole, even the faction under replicarter was dismantled by what amounts to a research project. Jack Carter even says it outright, the replicators cannot be fought by conventional means all you do is end up feeding them tehcnology and materials faster.The power of the ori was cancelled out by the sangraal, no one ever said that they were killed by it (which makes it a somewhat good story point in an otherwise abysmal plotline). SG-1 dealt with the Goa'uld through force but both the asgard, the Nox and the Tollan dealt with them by peaceful means.

In what universe is dropping people in a black hole considered a peaceful death? I don't consider you a pacifist unless you spare your enemies, and a black hole is very much an extravagant means of killing someone.

 

[Voidlord]

Yes but it was an example that even in a grimdark wardriven universe like wh40k you eventually have to resort to a macguffin to defeat an enemy of that magnitude.

As for reality, no there are always multiple solutions (I'd say an almost infinite amount of them) to every problem. There will always be pacifist solutions, that said it's not certain that pacifist slutions are the best. They may rely on letting a lot of innocent people die, but they always exist.

An example for hitler would be to let hitler win and start working against the nazis from within. Sure he'd still manage to butcher millions more before you could take him down by peaceful means but given enough time it could have been achieved.

As for the Daesh I disagree but will not discuss current politics here.

No the ancients of stargate were not pacifist, and what happened to them? They ascended, what a horrible fate.
The wraith could have been dealt with by relocating the people of pegasus to the milky way, and a number of other solutions. The replicators were not dealt with by force they were contained in a time dialation field and then dropped into a black hole, even the faction under replicarter was dismantled by what amounts to a research project. Jack Carter even says it outright, the replicators cannot be fought by conventional means all you do is end up feeding them tehcnology and materials faster.The power of the ori was cancelled out by the sangraal, no one ever said that they were killed by it (which makes it a somewhat good story point in an otherwise abysmal plotline). SG-1 dealt with the Goa'uld through force but both the asgard, the Nox and the Tollan dealt with them by peaceful means.

Letting Hitler win, and working on them from within was NOT a option (just take that from me, because if he won I wouldnt exist becuase guess what? I am of Jewish Descent).
Actually the Replicators were beaten with a Weapon, the Dakara Superweapon while it wasnt intitially designed as such its quite clear what it could do, and that its ultimately a weapon.
The Sangraal was a weapon, designed to cancel out (read kill) Ascended Beings, Merlin designed it to do that.
With regards to the Nox they ran and hid from everything, and looked down upon other beings that fought, despite the fact they had arguably the best cloaking tech, while the other the Races didnt.
The Tollans had their Ion Cannons that could quite easily shoot down Ha'Taks (you know the use of force), and The Asgard also used force to make the Goa'uld sign a treaty? So your Argument sort of falls apart in that area...

 

[Kapitalisti]

This pacifism debate is really strange. Of course there will be some problems that a pacifistic approach just will not solve, period. But there will also be situations where a violent approach gains you nothing and is counter-productive. And that's before even going into the debate about what counts as pacifism.

 

[chopak]

Like someone already stated in this thread, peaceful solution is allying with half of galaxy to destroy the menace.
And of course militaristic solution is killing it on your own, because you already conquered your potential allies.

 

[TheGrinningMan]

This pacifism debate is really strange. Of course there will be some problems that a pacifistic approach just will not solve, period. But there will also be situations where a violent approach gains you nothing and is counter-productive. And that's before even going into the debate about what counts as pacifism.

Oh, aye. The debate as to whether or not an empire/federation that holds to "speak softly and carry a big stick" can have pacifist ethos has been quite delightful (and I mean that sincerely, this forum's folks are pretty sharp), but it's been going nowhere fast. And judging by the collectivist/individualist debate, a silly little thing like canonical Word of God ain't gonna make either side budge.

 

[TheDungen]

Letting Hitler win, and working on them from within was NOT a option (just take that from me, because if he won I wouldnt exist becuase guess what? I am of Jewish Descent).
Actually the Replicators were beaten with a Weapon, the Dakara Superweapon while it wasnt intitially designed as such its quite clear what it could do, and that its ultimately a weapon.
The Sangraal was a weapon, designed to cancel out (read kill) Ascended Beings, Merlin designed it to do that.
With regards to the Nox they ran and hid from everything, and looked down upon other beings that fought, despite the fact they had arguably the best cloaking tech, while the other the Races didnt.
The Tollans had their Ion Cannons that could quite easily shoot down Ha'Taks (you know the use of force), and The Asgard also used force to make the Goa'uld sign a treaty? So your Argument sort of falls apart in that area...

If hitler had won I wouldn't exist either my grandparents would never had to flee the soviet unslaught and so my mother would have grown up in germany and never met my father. If you want to ensure the current situation then ofcourse the course of action taken is the only way to acheive that. But you have to specify what your goals are, there are many ways that hitler could have been defeated, but only one of those result in the world exactly like it is today.

And no the dakara superweapon was not a weapon it was a god machine, I cna use a lead pipe as a weapon that doesn't mean that it is a weapon.
And the sangraal was never said to kill the Ori only to cancel out their power, like a wave cancels out another wave was the analogy and a wave does not destroy another wave, it cancels it out.

I'm sorry but if you call everything that can be used to neautralise an enemy as a weapon then ofcourse you will find them using weapons, but in the terms of stellaris they are not, they are research projects.

The tollans were relativly pacifist, yes they used force to ensure their own safefty, the asgard however were never seen activly taking the fight to the Goa'uld, they used beaming to beam heru'ers forces away one time and thors hammer as you might remember only captured the Goa'ulds and gave them a choice.
True the asgard were not pacifist, we saw that in their fight with the replicators. But they dealth with the Goa'uld by such means. Why? Becuase they were technologically advanced enough to do so.

 

[Mauer]

Yeah I don't think Pacifist means renouncing taking up arms at any and all times, it's just not going around warmongering. Most nations in the world today would consider themselves pacifist, though the reality may be another as only a handful have dismantled their armies and even then they keep domestic security forces (police).

 

[TheDungen]

Yeah I don't think Pacifist means renouncing taking up arms at any and all times, it's just not going around warmongering. Most nations in the world today would consider themselves pacifist, though the reality may be another as only a handful have dismantled their armies and even then they keep domestic security forces (police).

Yes and no I don't think all pacifists are unwilling to take up arms even to defend themselves but I don't buy that there are any pacifist nations on earht right now. Even sweden which hasn't gone to war since he war of the sixth coalition views war as a viable means to achive a goal and thus we are not pacifist.
Not warmongering is not being pacisfist, in reality that's just common sense.

 

[TheDungen]

In what universe is dropping people in a black hole considered a peaceful death? I don't consider you a pacifist unless you spare your enemies, and a black hole is very much an extravagant means of killing someone.

Assuming the replicators could even be considered to be living beings. Daniel Jacksson when possessing the knowledge of the ascended ancients sugested they were not.
And in the terms of stellaris it's still a research project not going to war.

 

[The_Red_Star]

Assuming the replicators could even be considered to be living beings. Daniel Jacksson when possessing the knowledge of the ascended ancients sugested they were not.
And in the terms of stellaris it's still a research project not going to war.

Do you even know how horrific death by black hole is?

 

[Ifreann]

Do you even know how horrific death by black hole is?

Does anyone?

 

[TheGrinningMan]

Does anyone?

Nobody can speak from personal experience, but according to our current knowledge of physics, it isn't fun.

 

[TheDungen]

Do you even know how horrific death by black hole is?

Does anyone?

That aside yes I realise that it's a horrible death but that's what makes is such momentous thing when a otherwise pacifist/peaceful faction actually decides to do a thing like that, it adds wieght to it, in a way that going out and fighting with ships like everyone else does not.

Nobody can speak from personal experience, but according to our current knowledge of physics, it isn't fun.

Well your ship is torn apart by tidal forces and then you die from exposure to vaccum long before that happens.

 

[The_Red_Star]

That aside yes I realise that it's a horrible death but that's what makes is such momentous thing when a otherwise pacifist/peaceful faction actually decides to do a thing like that, it adds wieght to it, in a way that going out and fighting with ships like everyone else does not.

It's like claiming you're a pacifist because you nuked them instead of sending in the tanks.

 

[TheDungen]

It's like claiming you're a pacifist because you nuked them instead of sending in the tanks.

The difrence between fighting and killing. You may figth them for decades and achieve nothing but if you have the ability to end the slaughter right there, permanently, then the decision becomes much harder.

 

[The_Red_Star]

The difrence between fighting and killing.

????

They're not any less dead because you dropped a superweapon instead of an army on them. By this logic the Empire was more morally justified in using the Death Star to blow up Alderann than it would have been to storm it with ships and stormtroopers.

 

[TheDungen]

????

They're not any less dead because you dropped a superweapon instead of an army on them. By this logic the Empire was more morally justified in using the Death Star to blow up Alderann than it would have been to storm it with ships and stormtroopers.

I am not speakign of my morals but how things could possible be percieved. What would make an intresting plot line an intresting story.
And the dffrence is that doing one of these very situational acts while horrible is not the same as building up the infrastructure and mentality for war.

I think you should remember that I have mentioned 20 or so crisis solutions in this thread that does not include killing anyone.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

Yeah I don't think Pacifist means renouncing taking up arms at any and all times, it's just not going around warmongering. Most nations in the world today would consider themselves pacifist, though the reality may be another as only a handful have dismantled their armies and even then they keep domestic security forces (police).

Real-life pacifism normally focuses on two things: firstly an abhorrence of violence, and secondly a belief that most situations can be resolved through vigorous intervention before they get to such a dire state that violence becomes necessary. In the case of Hitler and in the case of the Daesh, there were plenty of pacifists pointing at it and going "this shit is fucked up, we need to do something about these people before it degenerates into a military situation."

Often, the solutions that we advocate take the form of humanitarian intervention; this means that pacifists often get confused with aid workers. However economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, direct pressure on key individuals and institutions, and aid to internal political factions are also within the pacifist toolbox. As always, good does not mean nice.

In many games, the only way that you can intervene in another nation's internal affairs is through declaring war (or related things like espionage.) This means that pacifists have lost their toolbox and end up standing around saying "Hey, you know that thing that's the only thing you can do? Yeah, don't do that thing."

Stellaris looks to be one of those games, which means that any actual pacifists would look puzzlingly out of place. "Pacifist" in Stellaris seems to mean "friendly."

 

[TheDungen]

Real-life pacifism normally focuses on two things: firstly an abhorrence of violence, and secondly a belief that most situations can be resolved through vigorous intervention before they get to such a dire state that violence becomes necessary. In the case of Hitler and in the case of the Daesh, there were plenty of pacifists pointing at it and going "this shit is fucked up, we need to do something about these people before it degenerates into a military situation."

Often, the solutions that we advocate take the form of humanitarian intervention; this means that pacifists often get confused with aid workers. However economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, direct pressure on key individuals and institutions, and aid to internal political factions are also within the pacifist toolbox. As always, good does not mean nice.

In many games, the only way that you can intervene in another nation's internal affairs is through declaring war (or related things like espionage.) This means that pacifists have lost their toolbox and end up standing around saying "Hey, you know that thing that's the only thing you can do? Yeah, don't do that thing."

Stellaris looks to be one of those games, which means that any actual pacifists would look puzzlingly out of place. "Pacifist" in Stellaris seems to mean "friendly."

Yeah the rest of the game seems a lot harder to handle by pacifist means than end game criseses.
Hence why I'm so vocal about it, hoping that while a deeper peace gameplay may not have time to make it into retail, that it's something they consider for the DLCs.