Stellaris Dev Diary #345 - Upcoming 3.12.3 Improvements

[secretagentguy]

The power of the Arc Furnace and Dyson swarm are huge, and not getting the tech is a huge penalty. Can you consider adding the techs as agenda's that you can pursue after you get your 2nd ascension perk? I'm at 2279 and have Megastructural engineering and cybernetically ascended and still don't have either of those techs despite meeting all pre-requisites to boost draw weight. It just feels so RNG, and it sucks when the AI around me have them and I can't build them yet (I also can't steal them due to being pacifist.).

 

[AllYourPopsAreBelongToUs]

I am aware it doesn't affect machine uprisings. Cybernetic Creed and The Flesh is Weak no longer has any protections against a Machine Uprising, meaning they will eventually rise up and the alternative is just having strictly worse Combat Computers than everyone else.

Whereas other Empires or origins have alternatives, Cybernetic Creed needs to be Spiritualist to have the benefits of its origin (Haruspex and Creed traits).


Which sucks because then Cybernetic Creed is capped at Advanced Combat Computers since they can't get Precognitive Computers because they can't go Psionic.

The alternative is to not enslave or in case of spiritualists build robots

If you do, and Not Stop before reaching 75 Robo Pops / 25% Robots, they will rise up. Always.
Building robots isn't as important as it once was (thanks growth rework), and in the end it is a pretty simple system:

You have lots of enslaved Robots? -> Danger
You have free/not many/No Robots -> No Danger

The way i see it is that not reseaching some techs to prevent any uprising while still relying on a large Robo Slave force is a decision you made, with pros (No uprising) and cons (worse Tech), but you did have alternatives!

 

[KarsusTheMad]

The alternative is to not enslave or in case of spiritualists build robots

Right. And you're worse off for it. Even Fanatic Spiritualist Psionic Empires can have Robots with negligible penalties because they can get Precognitive Computers. They just never research Sapient Combat Computers or Synthetics because they do not need them.

The way i see it is that not reseaching some techs to prevent any uprising while still relying on a large Robo Slave force is a decision you made, with pros (No uprising) and cons (worse Tech), but you did have alternatives!

Your alternative is to just be worse? This isn't a choice or dilemma any other origin or playstyle has to deal with. Why is it acceptable in your eyes that Creed has to deal with this irksome shackle and why is this fair?

 

[Abdulijubjub]

You can always spark the uprising and pander to them until you can research The Patch. The situation will also advance much slower if you robots are just workers, rather than specialists.

 

[AllYourPopsAreBelongToUs]

Right. And you're worse off for it. Even Fanatic Spiritualist Psionic Empires can have Robots with negligible penalties because they can get Precognitive Computers. They just never research Sapient Combat Computers or Synthetics because they do not need them.


Your alternative is to just be worse? This isn't a choice or dilemma any other origin or playstyle has to deal with. Why is it acceptable in your eyes that Creed has to deal with this irksome shackle and why is this fair?

Yes you are worse of at robo Pop assembly as a Spiritualists. Like all others are worse of with bureaucrats instead of Priests, all non Authoritarian start with 5 less stability and so on.
Losing 2 assembly hurts, but IMO isn't Game breaking and can be remedied by either staying under the Robo threshhold, Patching or crushing the uprising.

In any way i think the uprising mechanics are fine and you have options in how to deal with it (and the whole Robo enslavement matter), but can be improved for Sure!
IMO Spiritualists are pretty Strong and the Robot Problem is a pain to deal with as it should be for spiritualists

 

[KarsusTheMad]

You can always spark the uprising and pander to them until you can research The Patch.

As a spiritualist, you don't actually get as many options to delay or negate it as anyone else does, so you're really just delaying the inevitable. And furthermore, delaying the situation until you can research The Patch has its own side effect costs as well (-25 to 50% robot output, -10 to 25% research speed, a special project that halts physics research). Again, costs and penalties no other empire would have to deal with if they were presented with the same problem.

The situation will also advance much slower if you robots are just workers, rather than specialists.

So you just don't research Droid technology either? This somehow makes the problem worse.

Yes you are worse of at robo Pop assembly as a Spiritualists.

It isn't JUST a Spiritualist thing. This is a problem exclusive to Cybernetic Creed. If you are a Spiritualist and you go Genetic, your solution is to just have a robot population of 0. If you go Spiritualist and Psionic, your solution is to just outlaw A.I. research and get Precognitive Combat Computers and never need to research Sapient Combat Computers or Synthetics. If you are Cybernetic Creed, your options are:

• accept that you're having a Machine Uprising
• accept that you're economically handicapped because you just don't get access to the pop assembly slot or assembled pops that can go above Specialist
• accept that you're capped at advanced combat computers

I say this in the most polite way possible, I don't believe you understand why this is a problem. It is not about robots or being allowed to assemble them or anything like that. If it were, I'd be asking why Cybernetic Creed cannot take Permanent Employment. This is strictly an issue with being able to have access to strongest available ship combat computer for your empire. Everything else that you have to do to circumnavigate this unique problem is gasoline on the fire that once again, no one else has to deal with.

Losing 2 assembly hurts, but IMO isn't Game breaking and can be remedied by either staying under the Robo threshhold, Patching or crushing the uprising.

Again, problems that no other empire has to deal with to get Sapient Combat Computers or a technological equivalent.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

As a spiritualist, you don't actually get as many options to delay or negate it as anyone else does, so you're really just delaying the inevitable. And furthermore, delaying the situation until you can research The Patch has its own side effect costs as well (-25 to 50% robot output, -10 to 25% research speed, a special project that halts physics research). Again, costs and penalties no other empire would have to deal with if they were presented with the same problem.

You also have a unique origin that gives you bonuses and opportunities that other empires don't get.

So you just don't research Droid technology either? This somehow makes the problem worse.

No, just don't make big planets of specialist robots; prefer to put them in worker jobs, since your cyborgs are better specialists anyway. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

It isn't JUST a Spiritualist thing. This is a problem exclusive to Cybernetic Creed. If you are a Spiritualist and you go Genetic, your solution is to just have a robot population of 0. If you go Spiritualist and Psionic, your solution is to just outlaw A.I. research and get Precognitive Combat Computers and never need to research Sapient Combat Computers or Synthetics. If you are Cybernetic Creed, your options are:

• accept that you're having a Machine Uprising
• accept that you're economically handicapped because you just don't get access to the pop assembly slot or assembled pops that can go above Specialist
• accept that you're capped at advanced combat computers

I say this in the most polite way possible, I don't believe you understand why this is a problem. It is not about robots or being allowed to assemble them or anything like that. If it were, I'd be asking why Cybernetic Creed cannot take Permanent Employment. This is strictly an issue with being able to have access to strongest available ship combat computer for your empire. Everything else that you have to do to circumnavigate this unique problem is gasoline on the fire that once again, no one else has to deal with.

Cybernetic Creed can easily have a robot population of zero.

You do not have to assembly robots. In fact, it's actually generally harmful for you to do so. Robot Assembly, unless you're a pacifist who desperately needs an avenue for resource/labor investment to drive growth, is a losing proposition. The payback time is several decades, so you're generally better off not doing it.

Not using robots is an economic boon, not an economic handicap.

The recent Cybernetic rework replaces up to 4.6 cyborg assembly gained through a pop tax and expensive upkeep with 1.8 cyborg growth gained practically for free (as the jobs are efficient produces of engineering/amenities without the growth) from Augmentation Centers. This was a buff.

 

[yarpus]

The power of the Arc Furnace and Dyson swarm are huge, and not getting the tech is a huge penalty. Can you consider adding the techs as agenda's that you can pursue after you get your 2nd ascension perk? I'm at 2279 and have Megastructural engineering and cybernetically ascended and still don't have either of those techs despite meeting all pre-requisites to boost draw weight. It just feels so RNG, and it sucks when the AI around me have them and I can't build them yet (I also can't steal them due to being pacifist.).

Just a word of advice - consider taking Tech Ascendancy. It increases chance for rare research options by 50%. I’ve picked it as first recently and always landed at least one tech in first 20-30 years of the game.

 

[KarsusTheMad]

You also have a unique origin that gives you bonuses and opportunities that other empires don't get.

I disagree that the benefits Cybernetic Creed in particular gets are unique, or particularly strong enough to warrant the handicap of having objectively inferior combat computers, which I feel I must remind you is my primary concern here.

No, just don't make big planets of specialist robots; prefer to put them in worker jobs, since your cyborgs are better specialists anyway. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

This is not something you have to really actively do and is actually something you have to actively avoid instead, and that is fine. You can avoid this issue by just not researching Droids. The reason why this is strictly worse, is because you still need to research Droids and Synthetics just to research Cross-Model Standardization and Fungible Circuits just to have the maximum amount of trait points for a Cyborg empire. So again, you're in this really awkward situation where you want to be able to research A.I. and advanced robotics, but your origin prevents you from really doing so without shooting yourself in the foot down the line.

And of course, you can absolutely just research these techs and never build a Robotic Assembly plant and again be fine for it, but I assure you: No one else would have to make this sacrifice just to stay on even footing.

Cybernetic Creed can easily have a robot population of zero.

You do not have to assembly robots. In fact, it's actually generally harmful for you to do so. Robot Assembly, unless you're a pacifist who desperately needs an avenue for resource/labor investment to drive growth, is a losing proposition. The payback time is several decades, so you're generally better off not doing it.

You're going to have to present a very compelling case as to why an extra 4.6 pop assembly, you would otherwise have no other way of accessing is worse for you and why expending upwards to 4 pops to get, by your own admission, less than half of the alternative back, is a superior option to just having both. Outside of just going to war and conquering your neighbors and stealing their population, I'm not convinced there are better available ways to attain equivalent, or superior, growth available for Cybernetic Creed.

But again. This is not a pop growth issue. Cybernetic Creed could quite literally have -100% pop growth penalty and it would be completely divorced from my current issue. My issue is not, nor has it ever been, with Cybernetics having "weaker" pop growth (they don't, but that is a separate discussion). My issue is gaining access to end game Combat Computers needing to be a trial by fire for them and them alone.

 

[one4crisis]

Whether to consider the impact of reducing the size of the empire on traditional and scientific research spending. In addition, bureaucrats and administrators should be able to reduce the size of the empire. Idle scientists can increase the speed of scientific research.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

This is not something you have to really actively do and is actually something you have to actively avoid instead, and that is fine. You can avoid this issue by just not researching Droids. The reason why this is strictly worse, is because you still need to research Droids and Synthetics just to research Cross-Model Standardization and Fungible Circuits just to have the maximum amount of trait points for a Cyborg empire. So again, you're in this really awkward situation where you want to be able to research A.I. and advanced robotics, but your origin prevents you from really doing so without shooting yourself in the foot down the line.

I did not propose not researching Droids. Not doing that would be severely handicapping yourself for a very small benefit. You should research droids, but try to keep the robots you have filling worker jobs, if possible.

I don't see having to complete a special project as a major handicap. It just means you have to pay twice as much for Sapient Combat Computers (~70k instead of ~40k). Over the course of the game, that's much smaller than even the temporary -10% research penalty you get for actually finishing (which is, itself, fairly minor by that point).

It's not that big of a deal. That's why I said, originally, "you can always... research The Patch".

And of course, you can absolutely just research these techs and never build a Robotic Assembly plant and again be fine for it, but I assure you: No one else would have to make this sacrifice just to stay on even footing.

Again, it's not much of a sacrifice.

You're going to have to present a very compelling case as to why an extra 4.6 pop assembly, you would otherwise have no other way of accessing is worse for you and why expending upwards to 4 pops to get, by your own admission, less than half of the alternative back, is a superior option to just having both. Outside of just going to war and conquering your neighbors and stealing their population, I'm not convinced there are better available ways to attain equivalent, or superior, growth available for Cybernetic Creed.

Let's say you have 400 pops. Each new pop requires 200 growth.

A robot assembly complex burns 8 energy (around 1/2 a technician at that point) and 2 crystal (around 1/2 a refiner which will in turn need around 1/4 of a miner in support). The two roboticists need 4 alloys (around 1/2 a metallurgist, which again needs 1/4 of a miner).

So you're using 2+0.5+0.5+0.25+0.5+0.25=4 pops to produce that 4.6 assembly.

Just to replace those pops with robots working the jobs they would have done will take 30 years. Except that for those 30 years, you were missing out on their output, which averages to 30*4/2=60 pop-years of missing output. In order to make that up, you have to build robots for another 37.5 years until your empire finally has more resources than you would have if you'd never built the assembly complex at all.

So at least 67.5 years before your investment pays for itself.

Except that during that time you grew more pops, and growth required rose even higher, so it actually took even longer. And you had extra sprawl, and extra building slots/districts used. And the robots aren't even as good as your cyborgs. And if you're building robots in bulk, you will raise your growth required enough to slow the cybernetic growth you would have done anyway.

All that means it may actually be 100 years, or more, before the investment pays off. And if you take into account that you might have e.g. build more ships, finished a weapons tech, and claimed an extra planet in a war if you hadn't weakened yourself with robots... it may never pay itself off. The opportunity cost is real.

Building robots is satisfying. But unless you are a pacifist or refuse to expand (or even subjugate) for aesthetic reasons, then your empire will be more powerful if you choose not to.


For the growth they got instead: it's good because it's mostly free. Augmentors are fairly efficient jobs: 4 pops doing the work of ~1.3 researchers and 2 entertainers in a single building slot that you should have on the planet anyway for the sake of the specialist bonuses.

They don't have the same problems that Roboticists do because instead of ~4 pops doing nothing but producing 4.6 growth, you have 4 pops giving you the output of 3.3 (with similar upkeep to what those 3.3 would have had), plus 1.8 growth on top.

4 pops making 4.6 is much less efficient than 0.66 pops making 1.8.

But again. This is not a pop growth issue. Cybernetic Creed could quite literally have -100% pop growth penalty and it would be completely divorced from my current issue. My issue is not, nor has it ever been, with Cybernetics having "weaker" pop growth (they don't, but that is a separate discussion). My issue is gaining access to end game Combat Computers needing to be a trial by fire for them and them alone.

Eh. Just research it anyway. You pay double physics research for Sapient Combat Computers, but it's fine.

I think this may be the main disagreement, then: I don't see this as particularly onerous. If anything, it's nice to actually see this situation for once, instead of all the other scenarios where you give them rights (and never see it) or else never build robots at all.

And if it's not a pop growth issue, then there is no trial by fire in the first place. If you don't build robots, then there is no uprising. If there is no issue giving up the pop assembly, then there is no issue.

 

[secretagentguy]

Just a word of advice - consider taking Tech Ascendancy. It increases chance for rare research options by 50%. I’ve picked it as first recently and always landed at least one tech in first 20-30 years of the game.

I did that, got Cybrex, had counselor with Genius, and had Curator scientist on the counsel as well. It still is just RNG and really changes the course of your game. The sad thing is I had 2 excellent systems for a Dyson and 1 for the Arc Furnace as well as the ability to get the Cybrex Starbase building to double output. I would have been able to crush and instead I'm lagging.

 

[Archael90]

I feel it very underwhelming that modularity machines have to be xenophobic over organic population or they loose most value from their ascension

 

[Abdulijubjub]

I feel it very underwhelming that modularity machines have to be xenophobic over organic population or they loose most value from their ascension

Is it not just the inverse of genetic/psionic and robots?

 

[Archael90]

Is it not just the inverse of genetic/psionic and robots?

Kind of
Main difference is that in vast majority migration treaties you will make with other empires, pops that migrate to you will be organic. Psionic empires are already xenophobic because majority of those empires are spiritualist, and genetic empires will have mostly organic species due to cloning vats because even if IM will migrate to them, they will be rarely assembled if ever, so both those ascensions loose very little being xenophilic and opening their borders to other empires, it's up to player to decide if they are more or less open.
In case of modularity IM, player is forces to not sign migration trieties and/or use population control so that organic pops will not grow on their worlds, otherwise they will loose much more value from ascension. Imagine dark matter engines being used on 50% pops.
Not to mention uncontrollable growth of species templates you can do nothing about (psionic empires don't want to, genetic can but are lack of qol).

 

[Vorpaliminal]

Kind of
Main difference is that in vast majority migration treaties you will make with other empires, pops that migrate to you will be organic. Psionic empires are already xenophobic because majority of those empires are spiritualist, and genetic empires will have mostly organic species due to cloning vats because even if IM will migrate to them, they will be rarely assembled if ever, so both those ascensions loose very little being xenophilic and opening their borders to other empires, it's up to player to decide if they are more or less open.
In case of modularity IM, player is forces to not sign migration trieties and/or use population control so that organic pops will not grow on their worlds, otherwise they will loose much more value from ascension. Imagine dark matter engines being used on 50% pops.
Not to mention uncontrollable growth of species templates you can do nothing about (psionic empires don't want to, genetic can but are lack of qol).

I think you're looking at it the wrong way here. While they won't be as efficient, pops are pops, and organic pops grow for free without you having to manage them. If you want machine pops to take all the good jobs then give organics residency status so that they get displaced from ruler and specialist jobs by superior machines.

 

[cryptkeeper]

The power of the Arc Furnace and Dyson swarm are huge, and not getting the tech is a huge penalty. Can you consider adding the techs as agenda's that you can pursue after you get your 2nd ascension perk? I'm at 2279 and have Megastructural engineering and cybernetically ascended and still don't have either of those techs despite meeting all pre-requisites to boost draw weight. It just feels so RNG, and it sucks when the AI around me have them and I can't build them yet (I also can't steal them due to being pacifist.).

I honestly hope they bring back breakthrough techs at some point, like they had in the tech beta. So I can just focus on getting all the techs before moving on to the next tier if I want.

 

[KarsusTheMad]

I think this may be the main disagreement, then: I don't see this as particularly onerous. If anything, it's nice to actually see this situation for once, instead of all the other scenarios where you give them rights (and never see it) or else never build robots at all.

I find the situation more annoying than it needs to be and a source of frustration at being pushed into it from conquest. I conquer another empire's pops, they have robots, I switch my policies (or start with outlawed robotic workers) to allow me to disassemble them and for 10 years I am stalled on being able to research further robotic techs. Furthermore, you still need to research Droids and Synthetics to get the most out of your ascension path.

If you personally want to be able to encounter this situation, by all means. Nothing is preventing you from accumulating 75 mechanical pops and getting it. I just find it annoying that you either deal with this, regularly cull any robots you accidentally pick up or I don't get Sapient Combat Computers.

 

[DarkSpiryt]

Let us dismantle empty habitats too please! I am forced to make colossus every time if i dont wanna have them on map ...

 

[Green Eggs and Ham]

While the game does have some bugs, I’m worried that that’s all you ever hear about. You guys should really be proud of the game that you have made. Solaris is an incredible epic game. It’s Extremely fun and well thought out and has a lot of replay value. Keep up the great work!