Stellaris Dev Diary #352 - Stellaris 3.13 'Vela' Improvements and Preliminary Release Notes

[Tannhäuser Cake]

As for the Penal colony for egalitarians, the flavour text surrounding it gives plenty of authoritarian vibes so as an egal player I don't think it's currently inRP for it to exist the way it does for egals and especially fan egals, but that's just me 2c onion.

A simple solution would be to gate Penal Colony behind the Domination tradition tree. Egalitarians are less likely to pick it, and would therefore be less likely to get Penal Colony. Those Egalitarians who do pick the Domination tradition tree can simply believe that equality before the law does not preclude the law being harsh on offenders.

Egalitarians usually have little need of Enforcers and prisons, but if they happen to live in a galaxy with criminal syndicates, they may have second thoughts on what is permissible in the defense of freedom. Besides, it's not like the residents of a Penal Colony are slaves; they are prisoners with jobs, paying off their debts and learning valuable workplace skills.

 

[mrt1212]

A simple solution would be to gate Penal Colony behind the Domination tradition tree. Egalitarians are less likely to pick it, and would therefore be less likely to get Penal Colony. Those Egalitarians who do pick the Domination tradition tree can simply believe that equality before the law does not preclude the law being harsh on offenders.

Egalitarians usually have little need of Enforcers and prisons, but if they happen to live in a galaxy with criminal syndicates, they may have second thoughts on what is permissible in the defense of freedom. Besides, it's not like the residents of a Penal Colony are slaves; they are prisoners with jobs, paying off their debts and learning valuable workplace skills.

Actually, the CrimSyn angle is a really good one, especially for the hamfisted avoidance of criminals some players have, where they're seemingly willing to burn down the entire house to get rid of a spider.

 

[Getty]

It would be funny if I believed you were trying to make a joke.

The colonists didn't swim through space to get to the planet with their hands either. They came in a space ship will space-age equipment in it. They repurposed the hull to be their capital building. Some of the interior equipment is being used for these automatic jobs.

Literally nobody was talking about "gathering with their hands", that's just you misunderstanding.

No. But you are proposing that resource extraction jobs should simply be adding upon the basis of a planetary feature instead of scaling up with infrastructure. You are literally making my point for me. The "colonist" jobs that spawn with the planet have as a basis for their activities the repurposing of colony ship infrastructure. The Strategic Resource gathering jobs also need to be associated to some type of infrastructure. They were associated previously to the crystal MINES (you know, like a MINING district), to the gas extraction WELL (like those things that pump oil from underground, oil WELLS) and finally mote harvesting traps (which isnt a a trap in the sense of a carboard box with a stick waiting for the mote to fall on it, but rather is most likely something like gold sluicing or some alternative sci fi more exotic method to separate and contain the volatile motes from other chaff). Once again, my point was that jobs, with exceptions from events and very special features (which in many occasions scale with population, which is analogous to planetary infrastructure) should require an infrastructure to exist. As has been since the Megacorp update.

You're flip-flopping from "lore-wise" to mechanical modifiers while making personal attacks. You were wrong about the lore.

Regarding the mechanics, those have only aligned since the mining designation changes in 3.x -- if you think the game has been consistent about this over time, you're wrong about that too.

I am not wrong about the lore. You are just being obtuse. The lore and the mechanics in Stellaris are so overwhelmingly broad to the point where they are up to interpretation, but we have strong associations among certain things. Food and biopops and bioascension are related, for reasons which you can generally gues. Zro and psionics are related, like so. The mining industry, minerals, strategic resources, which are extracted through things which were and are called mines and mining stations, and strategic resource refinement, which is done through the consumption of minerals, are all related quite heavily with each other. Worth mentioning that the game has made this distinction implicit and explicit for years. Rare resources found in celestial bodies are gathered through research stations, whilst strategic resources are gathered through MINING stations.

This has been the case for years. It is you who just never realized about this relation and who is trying to rewrite history by pretending it has only been there since 3.x to justify a mechanical change you want. Its been there for well over half of the games lifespan. I dont even remember when strategic resources were added, but the mining station VS research station and strategic resources VS rare resources dychotomy has been there for as long as I remember both types of resource existing. When was it even? Utopia? They definitely were already there during Megacorp. That is for sure. I am not sure if they were there back when planet size was tiles..... I dont think so? Back then xenofauna was a "rare resource" if i am not misremembering. Lmao.

Ah, you're debating in bad faith. Okay.

Here's the definition:

egalitarianism​

i-ˌga-lə-ˈter-ē-ə-ˌni-zəm​

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs​

2: a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people​

​

Prison colonies are in opposition to that.

Prison colonies are not compatible with the definition Egalitarianism.

Prison colonies to rehabilitate people who have engaged in wrongful behavior is substantially more aligned with whatever egalitarianism is supposed to represent than nuking planets. The idea that even fanatical egalitarian empires arent willing to compromise or engage in strong-arming in STELLARIS, the setting with empires which literally have the "Slaving Despots" AI personality is asinine. Also, I provided the definition of what egalitarian ideology means and how it is expressed in the world of Stellaris, including how egalitarian pops are affected in their opinion by government action within the game, you have just provided a dictionary definition which doesnt even prove any point.

If i had to make a rebuttal of your point, do you think pacifists in Stellaris should just be entirely unable to build warships because it goes against their moral system?

The correct answer to that question is NO. A pacifist civilization is still capable of understanding the concept of self defence as a last resort, just like an egalitarian empire is capable of understanding the concept of isolating and even punishing actors as a last resort. It is that simple. And there are many occasions in Stellaris where it is convenient to use such a last resort.

Also, absolutely wild accusing me of bad faith taking into account this game and its interpretation is, intentionally, quite vague, and the idea of the inhabitants of the penal planet having some sort of "downgraded citizenship" is perfectly reasonable. Mandatory reminder that the synaptic lathe isnt locked for ANY ETHIC. Lmao. That is something far more far-fetched than democracies having prisons. But it is stellaris, so we can still come up with reasons as to how a democratic empire would justify it.

I havent played for a little while because I am busy. The last empire I made was a Criminal Syndicate egalitarian worker cooperative Galcom Imperium. Did you know that Worker cooperative and Galactic Imperium arent mutually exclusive? You can actually shift back into egalitarian after becoming Galcom Emperor as a Megacorp. And goddamn is it good and BASED.

 

[mrt1212]

I havent played for a little while because I am busy. The last empire I made was a Criminal Syndicate egalitarian worker cooperative Galcom Imperium. Did you know that Worker cooperative and Galactic Imperium arent mutually exclusive? You can actually shift back into egalitarian after becoming Galcom Emperor as a Megacorp. And goddamn is it good and BASED.

Absolutely spit taking over this, like please tell me you at least had to murder all the true revolutionary sailors to get there, then murder one of the luminaries who gave the order to murder those sailors (with an ice axe), while they were exiled, decades later.

 

[Getty]

No. But you are proposing that resource extraction jobs should simply be adding upon the basis of a planetary feature instead of scaling up with infrastructure. You are literally making my point for me. The "colonist" jobs that spawn with the planet have as a basis for their activities the repurposing of colony ship infrastructure. The Strategic Resource gathering jobs also need to be associated to some type of infrastructure. They were associated previously to the crystal MINES (you know, like a MINING district), to the gas extraction WELL (like those things that pump oil from underground, oil WELLS) and finally mote harvesting traps (which isnt a a trap in the sense of a carboard box with a stick waiting for the mote to fall on it, but rather is most likely something like gold sluicing or some alternative sci fi more exotic method to separate and contain the volatile motes from other chaff). Once again, my point was that jobs, with exceptions from events and very special features (which in many occasions scale with population, which is analogous to planetary infrastructure) should require an infrastructure to exist. As has been since the Megacorp update.




I am not wrong about the lore. You are just being obtuse. The lore and the mechanics in Stellaris are so overwhelmingly broad to the point where they are up to interpretation, but we have strong associations among certain things. Food and biopops and bioascension are related, for reasons which you can generally gues. Zro and psionics are related, like so. The mining industry, minerals, strategic resources, which are extracted through things which were and are called mines and mining stations, and strategic resource refinement, which is done through the consumption of minerals, are all related quite heavily with each other. Worth mentioning that the game has made this distinction implicit and explicit for years. Rare resources found in celestial bodies are gathered through research stations, whilst strategic resources are gathered through MINING stations.

This has been the case for years. It is you who just never realized about this relation and who is trying to rewrite history by pretending it has only been there since 3.x to justify a mechanical change you want. Its been there for well over half of the games lifespan. I dont even remember when strategic resources were added, but the mining station VS research station and strategic resources VS rare resources dychotomy has been there for as long as I remember both types of resource existing. When was it even? Utopia? They definitely were already there during Megacorp. That is for sure. I am not sure if they were there back when planet size was tiles..... I dont think so? Back then xenofauna was a "rare resource" if i am not misremembering. Lmao.



Prison colonies to rehabilitate people who have engaged in wrongful behavior is substantially more aligned with whatever egalitarianism is supposed to represent than nuking planets. The idea that even fanatical egalitarian empires arent willing to compromise or engage in strong-arming in STELLARIS, the setting with empires which literally have the "Slaving Despots" AI personality is asinine. Also, I provided the definition of what egalitarian ideology means and how it is expressed in the world of Stellaris, including how egalitarian pops are affected in their opinion by government action within the game, you have just provided a dictionary definition which doesnt even prove any point.

If i had to make a rebuttal of your point, do you think pacifists in Stellaris should just be entirely unable to build warships because it goes against their moral system?

The correct answer to that question is NO. A pacifist civilization is still capable of understanding the concept of self defence as a last resort, just like an egalitarian empire is capable of understanding the concept of isolating and even punishing actors as a last resort. It is that simple. And there are many occasions in Stellaris where it is convenient to use such a last resort.

Also, absolutely wild accusing me of bad faith taking into account this game and its interpretation is, intentionally, quite vague, and the idea of the inhabitants of the penal planet having some sort of "downgraded citizenship" is perfectly reasonable. Mandatory reminder that the synaptic lathe isnt locked for ANY ETHIC. Lmao. That is something far more far-fetched than democracies having prisons. But it is stellaris, so we can still come up with reasons as to how a democratic empire would justify it.

I havent played for a little while because I am busy. The last empire I made was a Criminal Syndicate egalitarian worker cooperative Galcom Imperium. Did you know that Worker cooperative and Galactic Imperium arent mutually exclusive? You can actually shift back into egalitarian after becoming Galcom Emperor as a Megacorp. And goddamn is it good and BASED.

If someone reports the compatibility between Worker Cooperative and Galactic Imperium as a bug or bad thing to the devs, I curse you and all your descendants to be ugly or some other mildly bad thing which negatively affects you.

 

[mrt1212]

If someone reports the compatibility between Worker Cooperative and Galactic Imperium as a bug or bad thing to the devs, I curse you and all your descendants to be ugly or some other mildly bad thing which negatively affects you.

lol, I'm dying at them not touching any wonky behavior with Workers Cooperative except this one for some infernal reason (although it did perk me up that there is a way to get Nihilistic Acquisition albeit very late in the game as a Workers Cooperative)

 

[Getty]

Absolutely spit taking over this, like please tell me you at least had to murder all the true revolutionary sailors to get there, then murder one of the luminaries who gave the order to murder those sailors (with an ice axe), while they were exiled, decades later.

Its a Megacorp empire with like 10/15 vassals, and there was the Khan and a bunch of stuff going on. If I had to justify it Id say it was a period of ultracentralization and militarization of the Union (the rough translation of the OG name of the megacorp is Internationalist Revolutionary Union of Peoples, they are massive LARPers like that) to "muster the galaxy", followed by a "normalization" once it was clear that the centralization was meaningfully hindering the actual coordination of the new "Workers' Empire", whilst keeping, of course, all the "highly useful institutions of the "High" Imperial Period". These Khrakban (the crabs that conform the majority of the empire and founded it) are also culturally a fairly power hungry, even if simultaneously humble, people, so many just supported the move as a way to extend the influence of the Union and "help the galaxy".

I do think that the empire girlboss crabgirl leader that got the Galactic Imperium passed did die however shortly after the transition back into egalitarianism? But I dont fully remember. I think she died after “retiring” from her position peacefully, which coincided with the government reform and thus the end of the "High Imperial Period", in a way she was the pseudodictator that characterized the creation of the empire.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

I would argue having a penal colony was compatible with egalitarianism until this latest update, and to an extent it still is. Criminals are a fact of life, and you have to put them somewhere (unless you intend to execute them). Before the patch, that's all it was: a place to put criminals. More crime on one planet in exchange for less crime on other planets. It was mechanically dead (-25% does nearly nothing), but the incentive was generally to keep as few people there as possible because of the unhelpful designation (which, narratively, translates to wanting to keep the prison population to a minimum with fair sentences, rehabilitation, etc.).

The latest update made it much more interesting, but somewhat incompatible with egalitarian ideals: it introduced prison labor that isn't just a less efficient version of the same job on another world. If you want the jobs (because of high worker output bonuses), then you have an incentive to put as many people as the prison will hold on the planet. Which, narratively, means you want to maximize your prison population, and therefore need to either criminalize normal behavior or just pick random people who don't have to power to fight back finally root out those dangerous criminals to enslave them for labor keep them away from law abiding citizens.

But they can still be compatible with egalitarian ideals if you just use them for the modifier and keep populations as low as possible (just like the previous patch). It would be nice if that incompatibility was reflected in-game (e.g. egalitarian faction not liking you having more than a skeleton crew on your Penal Colony), but not everything can be captured in game mechanics.

And if you don't need worker tier metallurgists (because your modifiers for specialists are higher), you don't even have an incentive to maximize the prison population.

---

Because both narratives have existed at one point (and the old narrative is still alive if you have specialist output bonuses rather than worker output bonuses), it's easy to talk past each other when referring to the same feature, if you don't actually link it back the specifics of the mechanics.

 

[HFY]

No. But you are proposing that resource extraction jobs should simply be adding upon the basis of a planetary feature instead of scaling up with infrastructure.

That has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

I'm saying that swamp gas harvesters should not scale up with Miners.

But they absolutely do scale up with infrastructure like an Ancient Refinery that gives them a hefty +% bonus.


You're now lying about what I wrote because your points can't be defended on their own merits.

I am not wrong about the lore. You are just being obtuse.

I mean, you're wrong about a bunch of facts you've attempted to claim, and then when I do provide evidence you pretend you didn't make those claims. If that's me being "obtuse" then clearly reality is equally obtuse. Sorry but you're stuck here with both of us.

- The lore has never been exclusively associating miners with strategic resources.
- The mechanics which now do associate miners and strategic resources are new mechanics.

You made both claims and you were wrong. You're still wrong, of course, but also you were.

Prison colonies to rehabilitate people who have engaged in wrongful behavior

That's the marketing.

Besides, it's not like the residents of a Penal Colony are slaves; they are prisoners with jobs

This is the reality. It's slavery with better PR.

Slavery shouldn't be compatible with Egalitarians. If it's practiced, it should erode faith in Egalitarian principals -- when someone is allowed to profit from slavery, expect them to protect that profit.

 

[Getty]

I would argue penal colonies were compatible with egalitarianism until this latest update, and to an extent it still is. Criminals are a fact of life, and you have to put them somewhere (unless you intend to execute them). Before the patch, that's all it was: a place to put criminals. More crime on one planet in exchange for less crime on other planets. It was mechanically dead (-25% does nearly nothing), but the incentive was generally to keep as few people there as possible because of the unhelpful designation (which, narratively, translates to wanting to keep the prison population to a minimum with fair sentence, rehabilitation, etc.).

The latest update made it much more interesting, but somewhat incompatible with egalitarian ideals: it introduced prison labor that isn't just a less efficient of the same job on another world. If you want the jobs (because of high worker output bonuses), then you have an incentive to put as many people as the prison will hold on the planet. Which, narratively, means you want to maximize your prison population, and therefore need to either criminalize normal behavior or just pick random people who don't have to power to fight back finally root out those dangerous criminals to enslave them for labor keep away them away from law abiding citizens.

But they can still be compatible with egalitarian ideals if you just use them for the modifier and keep populations as low as possible (just like the previous patch). It would be nice if that incompatibility was reflected in-game (e.g. egalitarian faction not liking you having more than a skeleton crew on your Penal Colony), but not everything can be captured in game mechanics.

And if you don't need worker tier metallurgists (because your modifiers for specialists are higher), you don't even have an incentive to maximize the prison population.

---

Because both narratives have existed at one point (and the old narrative is still alive if you have specialist output bonuses rather than worker output bonuses), it's easy to talk past each other when referring to the same feature, if you don't actually link it back the specifics of the mechanics.

I must admit, yes, in the latest changes prison planets have become harsher, from what I understand you still can put everyone on utopian abundance on the penal planet.

 

[HFY]

I would argue penal colonies were compatible with egalitarianism until this latest update, and to an extent it still is. Criminals are a fact of life, and you have to put them somewhere (unless you intend to execute them). Before the patch, that's all it was: a place to put criminals. More crime on one planet in exchange for less crime on other planets. It was mechanically dead (-25% does nearly nothing), but the incentive was generally to keep as few people there as possible because of the unhelpful designation (which, narratively, translates to wanting to keep the prison population to a minimum with fair sentence, rehabilitation, etc.).

The latest update made it much more interesting, but somewhat incompatible with egalitarian ideals: it introduced prison labor that isn't just a less efficient of the same job on another world. If you want the jobs (because of high worker output bonuses), then you have an incentive to put as many people as the prison will hold on the planet. Which, narratively, means you want to maximize your prison population, and therefore need to either criminalize normal behavior or just pick random people who don't have to power to fight back finally root out those dangerous criminals to enslave them for labor keep away them away from law abiding citizens.

But they can still be compatible with egalitarian ideals if you just use them for the modifier and keep populations as low as possible (just like the previous patch). It would be nice if that incompatibility was reflected in-game (e.g. egalitarian faction not liking you having more than a skeleton crew on your Penal Colony), but not everything can be captured in game mechanics.

And if you don't need worker tier metallurgists (because your modifiers for specialists are higher), you don't even have an incentive to maximize the prison population.

---

Because both narratives have existed at one point (and the old narrative is still alive if you have specialist output bonuses rather than worker output bonuses), it's easy to talk past each other when referring to the same feature, if you don't actually link it back the specifics of the mechanics.

The prisoners-with-jobs thing is great, but it should have consequences for over-reliance, and it should push an Egal empire to be less Egal -- or a non-Egal empire to be more Auth. I think they should be a gateway drug to Authoritarianism.

Fan Egal should just prohibit using the mechanic, as it does for the Police State civic, and for a similar reason.

Regular Egal could be allowed to use them, but as they grow the prison population, that should be bad for their ideals.

For everyone else, it's a toe in the water to see how much fun it would be to enslave all the rebels misfits Worker population.

 

[Getty]

That has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

I'm saying that swamp gas harvesters should not scale up with Miners.

But they absolutely do scale up with infrastructure like an Ancient Refinery that gives them a hefty +% bonus.


You're now lying about what I wrote because your points can't be defended on their own merits.

You said that it should be a planetary decision. Citing textually.

"Make it a colony Decision with a cost if there must be some resource expenditure, but don't attach those resources to Miner jobs when there are some empires which don't need nearly as many Miners as other empires."

This is something which you wrote in the comment I was responding to prior. At no point have I seen you advocate for the Ancient Refinery thing. If it is new it is definitely an improvement. I disagree however. There is a substantial difference in the industry of making artificial diamonds in a factory and mining them from the soil. It is possible that you may have forgotten you said this, since I was responding to a comment from September. It would do well for you to remember the things you have said in the past and actually keep track of the conversation at hand.

I mean, you're wrong about a bunch of facts you've attempted to claim, and then when I do provide evidence you pretend you didn't make those claims. If that's me being "obtuse" then clearly reality is equally obtuse. Sorry but you're stuck here with both of us.

- The lore has never been exclusively associating miners with strategic resources.
- The mechanics which now do associate miners and strategic resources are new mechanics.

You made both claims and you were wrong. You're still wrong, of course, but also you were.

"Proceeds to provide 0 evidence whilst I have provided plenty of textual evidence, without rebuking a single point. Ignores that stations which produced strategic resources were literally called mining stations, which were the same thing that extracted minerals, ignores that they were called crystal mines and gas wells, ignores everything, as long as he|she puts their hands over their ears, they can pretend like they are right"

That's the marketing.



This is the reality. It's slavery with better PR.

Slavery shouldn't be compatible with Egalitarians. If it's practiced, it should erode faith in Egalitarian principals -- when someone is allowed to profit from slavery, expect them to protect that profit.

Yes, well, almost every egalitarian revolutionary, or not, movement that we know of has had some type of penitentiary system. In many occasions of meaningful size. You know, This is the reality。You are invited to fantasize about your jail less society in stellaris. Just like I can have a Workers Cooperative Imperium. It is perfectly fine and within very broad bounds of very broad reason this game offers. Do not expect me to stay silent when you advocate to thrust your ideologized expectations on the game however, by advocating for the idea that egalitarian ideals and penitentiary systems are utterly incompatible.

Unless you are one of ...... THOSE people, who think that the only legitimate and true moral and egalitarian movement exists within your imagination.

Also, I am not going to get into it, but it would do you incredibly well to not equate slavery generally, which may include the property of human beings by individuals and corporations, with penal labor. There are substantial qualitative and quantitative and moral distinctions to be had there.






Whilst the fact that you changed your opinion from strategic resource jobs being obtained by a planetary decision in September to scaling up with the Arcane Refinery today does give me hope that you are, deep down, a reasonable individual, it is quite clear that this just isnt worthwhile.

It doesnt matter that I offer arguments and screenshots that prove them, you simply pretend that I am wrong whilst providing scant to non existing evidence. One dictionary article. That is it. You said that prior to 3.x there was no association with miners and gatherers, I presented evidence as to how such association existed prior to 3.x both in terms of mechanics and in game nomenclature. It does not matter, just repeat and say that planetary Ascensions, planetary buildings and mining stations are new mechanics, somehow. The heels have been dug in and I believe that reaching a meaningful improvement in your opinions will not only not occur as a result of ego, but even if it were I am just not up to task. I do get some satisfaction from arguing and discussing, but doing so with a person so utterly convinced on such an overall miniscule subject and upon no basis and that then proceeds to ignore all presented evidence is just not worthwhile.

I will not wait 6 months of arguing for you to finally realize that, yes, actually, in Stellaris the association between mining and strategic resource gathering has existed for years and been reinforced with time. It is far more rewarding to engage in brief empire storying with mrt1212 than this purposeless slog.

 

[HFY]

You said that it should be a planetary decision. Citing textually.

"Make it a colony Decision with a cost if there must be some resource expenditure, but don't attach those resources to Miner jobs when there are some empires which don't need nearly as many Miners as other empires."

If there must be a cost, make it as unintrusive as possible.

But I don't demand that there be a cost.

Be careful around that word "IF", apparently it's giving you trouble.

Proceeds to provide 0 evidence whilst I have provided plenty of textual evidence

You've provided nothing of the sort.

If you mean your screencaps of the current wiki, that's what I'm calling 3.x

If you mean that I'm citing screencaps like how we got gas from swamps, that's not a screenshot, but it's absolutely concrete evidence.

You are posting false statements.

Unless you are one of ...... THOSE people, who think that the only legitimate and true moral and egalitarian movement exists within your imagination.

This looks like a personal attack of some political kind which you know would be inappropriate to the forum if you said the word in your head.

I'm not going to guess whatever the hell goes on in your head, but I'm going to ask you to not make personal accusations like this.

 

[Getty]

You said that it should be a planetary decision. Citing textually.

"Make it a colony Decision with a cost if there must be some resource expenditure, but don't attach those resources to Miner jobs when there are some empires which don't need nearly as many Miners as other empires."

This is something which you wrote in the comment I was responding to prior. At no point have I seen you advocate for the Ancient Refinery thing. If it is new it is definitely an improvement. I disagree however. There is a substantial difference in the industry of making artificial diamonds in a factory and mining them from the soil. It is possible that you may have forgotten you said this, since I was responding to a comment from September. It would do well for you to remember the things you have said in the past and actually keep track of the conversation at hand.




"Proceeds to provide 0 evidence whilst I have provided plenty of textual evidence, without rebuking a single point. Ignores that stations which produced strategic resources were literally called mining stations, which were the same thing that extracted minerals, ignores that they were called crystal mines and gas wells, ignores everything, as long as he|she puts their hands over their ears, they can pretend like they are right"


Yes, well, almost every egalitarian revolutionary, or not, movement that we know of has had some type of penitentiary system. In many occasions of meaningful size. You know, This is the reality。You are invited to fantasize about your jail less society in stellaris. Just like I can have a Workers Cooperative Imperium. It is perfectly fine and within very broad bounds of very broad reason this game offers. Do not expect me to stay silent when you advocate to thrust your ideologized expectations on the game however, by advocating for the idea that egalitarian ideals and penitentiary systems are utterly incompatible.

Unless you are one of ...... THOSE people, who think that the only legitimate and true moral and egalitarian movement exists within your imagination.

Also, I am not going to get into it, but it would do you incredibly well to not equate slavery generally, which may include the property of human beings by individuals and corporations, with penal labor. There are substantial qualitative and quantitative and moral distinctions to be had there.






Whilst the fact that you changed your opinion from strategic resource jobs being obtained by a planetary decision in September to scaling up with the Arcane Refinery today does give me hope that you are, deep down, a reasonable individual, it is quite clear that this just isnt worthwhile.

It doesnt matter that I offer arguments and screenshots that prove them, you simply pretend that I am wrong whilst providing scant to non existing evidence. One dictionary article. That is it. You said that prior to 3.x there was no association with miners and gatherers, I presented evidence as to how such association existed prior to 3.x both in terms of mechanics and in game nomenclature. It does not matter, just repeat and say that planetary Ascensions, planetary buildings and mining stations are new mechanics, somehow. The heels have been dug in and I believe that reaching a meaningful improvement in your opinions will not only not occur as a result of ego, but even if it were I am just not up to task. I do get some satisfaction from arguing and discussing, but doing so with a person so utterly convinced on such an overall miniscule subject and upon no basis and that then proceeds to ignore all presented evidence is just not worthwhile.

I will not wait 6 months of arguing for you to finally realize that, yes, actually, in Stellaris the association between mining and strategic resource gathering has existed for years and been reinforced with time. It is far more rewarding to engage in brief empire storying with mrt1212 than this purposeless slog.

I would also like to clarify that obviously strategic resources are associated with more things than mining. Exotic gases are associated with propellant and pharmaceuticals (clinics) for example. Crystals are associated with.... public administration (shiny public building|temple?)? and with kinetic weapons. Volatile motes are associated with aiding the mining industry and explosive weapons or heavy duty kinetic weapons if I am not misremembering. But this is an association that is implied to be through consumption. The strategic resources are used with FOR THESE purposes.


Just as is is generally implied that the infrastructure used to extract and gather strategic resources has heavy parallels and associations, or outright actually IS mining industry, through the places where the resources are extracted being called mines, mining planet designations affecting stratresource gathering and of course stratresources being extracted from celestial bodies by the same mining stations that extract minerals and energy. Though of course the association of stratresources seems to have been generally implied to be stronger with mining than with generators and energy industry. As has been ultimately formalized in this latest update with miners and mining industry actually outright producing the stratresources.

 

[Getty]

You've provided nothing of the sort.

If you mean your screencaps of the current wiki, that's what I'm calling 3.x

If you mean that I'm citing screencaps like how we got gas from swamps, that's not a screenshot, but it's absolutely concrete evidence.

You are posting false statements.

Firstly. You have provided 0 evidence for egalitarianism being anathema to the concept of a prison except for a dictionary definition. Secondly, the planetary designation modifier was literally added like, over 1 or 2 years at least? Ive been putting mining designation on my relic worlds with rare resource gatherers for like years it feels like. I literally would avoid converting them into Ecumenopolis because you could get some crazy plus 50 or 100% output on your gatherers.

Nevermind the fact that both the crystal mines and gas wells being called that way and the dychotomy of rare resource/research station strategic resource/mining station have been there since like, before Megacorp? If you are a player that actually really likes the satisfaction of having resource gatherers and minmaxxing them instead of the fairly typical reliance on the market plus refineries that became common as strategic resource demand skyrocketed, these are mechanics that have been there for a while.

The only thing that I will admit is that I do not remember when they changed mining subsidies to also increase resource gathering. That admittedly might be more recent? I apologize if it is so, but the rest of the elements I cited have been around for a WHILE. Its just that resource gatherers where annoying to get due to having to spend building slots and many people didnt minmax them. Hence the change to mining districts. We prospectorium\"The Surveyor" fans know (or more like "knew", since it has changed now) how to minmax strat resource gathering to the nanometer.

I do not know how to access previous versions of articles on the Stellaris wiki。If I could I would show you all of this. I am extremely confident in everything I have said up to this point except for the mining subsidies edict, which, to be honest, I think might also not be recent either?. The mining designation change was added between 1 and 2 years ago, and strat resource mining stations and the old strat resource gathering buildings were ANCIENT. Like 4 or 6 years or something.

 

[MarkDey]

This is a reminder to remain civil. I am making this reminder because the conversation has passed the bounds of acceptable forum conduct.