Stellaris Dev Diary #353 - Cosmic Storms Post-Release

[Ilab]

The use of science ships for espionage (in this case creating storms) is quite cool. But i would still prefer real espionage ships (at best enabled by an fitting AP or civic) to do the job with a far wider variety of operations. And speaking of espionage: Can you give at least a small hint about the loooong ago promised espionage rework?

I know it's somewhere on the custodian list. I really would love to hear at least a small life sign from it. And i guess there is no one better to ask than a custodian team member like you, right?

Didn't knew an espionage rework was announced at some point. This is an excellent time IMO to work on it as galactic storms seems very good candidates for integration with that system and since we already got improvements to the situation system we might actually get something way better than what it is now.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

I really hope this one gets changed. It’s bizzare that our empires figure out how to build megastructures before figuring out how to put some prisons on a planet.

It can even be argued that a penal colony world is more an expression and function of society, rather than a scientific discovery. Penal Colonies would feel right at home in the Domination tradition tree. Thrall Worlds and Resort Worlds could arguably also fit well in tradition trees, rather than being rare technologies that may not be useable by the time they are researched. For these special designations to be impactful and relevant, they need to be available early in the game.

 

[M@ni@c]

It can even be argued that a penal colony world is more an expression and function of society, rather than a scientific discovery.

That's why they're society techs, and not physics or engineering techs. I think those techs should be made a permanent research option by a tradition. Domination for Penal as you suggest. Mercantile for Resort. Domination is also the best fit for Thrall it seems.

 

[MadCow94]

@Gruntsatwork with the new fact that storms leave behind random anomalies, it would be nice if science ship automation was like construction ships, in that when they have no orders they simply idle.

Of course, more perfect would be if idle civilian ships automatically moved back to the closest spaceport to rest and refit (while waiting for new orders).

 

[HFY]

If fleets weren't an "all-eggs-in-one-basket" mechanic, it would not have this impact, and storms could be more interesting in shaping a frontline. Just sayin'.

If systems had a naval capacity which reduced the performance of ships above some number, then doomstacking would eventually work against you, and storms could further influence that number (or the penalty generated by the number).

 

[FiddleSticks96]

If systems had a naval capacity which reduced the performance of ships above some number, then doomstacking would eventually work against you, and storms could further influence that number (or the penalty generated by the number).

An intriguing solution. I could see civics, techs, traditions, APs, buildings (including starbase buildings), the juggernaut, and the strategic coordination center megastructure contributing to system naval cap. These bonuses could apply to your/friendly systems or neutral/hostile systems, making you choose whether to focus on defense or offense. Imagine sending in a juggernaut because it gives a + to your system naval cap. It could be used to fortify a choke point or bolster your frontline. This would also make it a strategic target. I like this idea.

I can also see it being a performance hit as system naval cap is calculated and recalculated for every empire for every system.

 

[MarkDey]

If systems had a naval capacity which reduced the performance of ships above some number, then doomstacking would eventually work against you, and storms could further influence that number (or the penalty generated by the number).

Personally, I'd rather avoid an EU4-like province based attrition / supply limit mechanic.

 

[HFY]

Personally, I'd rather avoid an EU4-like province based attrition / supply limit mechanic.

That sounds great.


In support of that idea:

- Each fleet has a "supply line" leading back to the capital or an Anchorage. These supply line can be pillaged by smaller enemy fleets and can be defended by smaller patrol fleets. Patrol fleets aren't assigned a pair of endpoints, but rather a "resource line" which looks like the line from a trade hub to the capital. When the fleet moves, the line moves, and the patrol fleet follows the line.

- Supply pull can be reduced by pillaging.

- Pillage might have multiple stages, where you strip easy-to-reach space resources fast, then dead ship debris as almost as accessible, and last strip planetary resources slowest (because you're fighting both the gravity well and the pops). Scavengers civics get more & faster supply from debris, while Despoilers might pull the best & fastest supply from colonies.

- Since supply is supposed to be vulnerable, Total War system conquest will need some kind of timed modifier to indicate that you own the system but you can't get supply from it until after the war ends, plus some few years afterwards to find all the traps and gotchas. It's still yours for resources, just not naval supply -- military systems are more difficult to subvert than civilian.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

Personally, I'd rather avoid an EU4-like province based attrition / supply limit mechanic.

May I ask why? I am curious about the pros and cons to such a system.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

That sounds great.


In support of that idea:

- Each fleet has a "supply line" leading back to the capital or an Anchorage. These supply line can be pillaged by smaller enemy fleets and can be defended by smaller patrol fleets. Patrol fleets aren't assigned a pair of endpoints, but rather a "resource line" which looks like the line from a trade hub to the capital. When the fleet moves, the line moves, and the patrol fleet follows the line.

- Supply pull can be reduced by pillaging.

- Pillage might have multiple stages, where you strip easy-to-reach space resources fast, then dead ship debris as almost as accessible, and last strip planetary resources slowest (because you're fighting both the gravity well and the pops). Scavengers civics get more & faster supply from debris, while Despoilers might pull the best & fastest supply from colonies.

- Since supply is supposed to be vulnerable, Total War system conquest will need some kind of timed modifier to indicate that you own the system but you can't get supply from it until after the war ends, plus some few years afterwards to find all the traps and gotchas. It's still yours for resources, just not naval supply -- military systems are more difficult to subvert than civilian.

Sounds complicated for a non-turned based game. I am also wary of relying on the game's pathing ability, considering how erratic it can be

 

[Rafss]

The FTL rework added chokepoints into the game and we all remember the utter chaos it was. I believe Stellaris has enough tools nowadays to give better strategic depth to Storms, the devs just need some more time to discuss.

 

[HFY]

Personally, I'd rather avoid an EU4-like province based attrition / supply limit mechanic.

Did I misunderstand something?

I'm not really into EU so its supply system might be different than what I'm thinking about.

Could you elaborate on the disagree?

 

[Imp0815]

If systems had a naval capacity which reduced the performance of ships above some number, then doomstacking would eventually work against you, and storms could further influence that number (or the penalty generated by the number).

For example.

With a solid fleet and task force deployment management to help players manage more fleets while managing an empire, and a more in-depth and slowed-down combat calculation, the game could lose its horrendous RTS roots and present itself as a real GSG. This, in turn, would open up the door for so many asymmetrical empire playstyles and a decoupling of the game loop from constant fleet power growth. It would be fantastic and reinvigorate the whole game.

Storms could be a way an empire really fights or makes frontlines and war interesting without outright losing tremendously when my only doomstack gets wiped.

 

[Critical Ethics]

Their chance to appear is significantly smaller than most other storms.

Unfortunately, with the number of players we have, even a small chance means a sizable number of you are getting messed up and with no chance of defending yourself to boot.

Please please please remember this lesson and also go back and look at the rest of the game with this in mind. There's a bunch of things, especially the shroud, where it's very clear that the problems with using independent randomisers were dismissed with "Yes but what are the odds of rolling snake-eyes two/three/ten times in a row?" without doing the extra math of multiplying those odds by the number of players. Nearly 16,000 people are playing Stellaris on Steam right now. If there's a 1 in 100 chance of an unfun thing happening it's happened to 160 of them, and at least one poor unfortunate soul has had two 1 in 100 bad experiences in a row.

And for the love of everything please revamp derelict ship brain parasites event.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

And for the love of everything please revamp derelict ship brain parasites event.

I have lost more scientists to that event than any other event. Eventually, I stopped investigating it entirely. "Abandoned Ship" is a big ol' NOPE to me.

 

[MarkDey]

And for the love of everything please revamp derelict ship brain parasites event.

I have lost more scientists to that event than any other event. Eventually, I stopped investigating it entirely. "Abandoned Ship" is a big ol' NOPE to me.

I always send a newly recruited scientist to investigate, and the last three times, they didn't die. Not sure if the odds changed, or if I've just been lucky.

 

[MarkDey]

Could you elaborate on the disagree?

I think the idea has potential, but I didn't find it a fun problem to solve when when I played EU, and I think that it would make less sense in a space setting like Stellaris, so I disagree that it should be implemented. Could be an interesting mod for people who want that though.

 

[TSBasilisk]

I always send a newly recruited scientist to investigate, and the last three times, they didn't die. Not sure if the odds changed, or if I've just been lucky.

They heard about the last five scientists who each died approximately three hours after being hired to check out a suspicious system or unleash an eldritch horror.

 

[Ilab]

Please please please remember this lesson and also go back and look at the rest of the game with this in mind. There's a bunch of things, especially the shroud, where it's very clear that the problems with using independent randomisers were dismissed with "Yes but what are the odds of rolling snake-eyes two/three/ten times in a row?" without doing the extra math of multiplying those odds by the number of players. Nearly 16,000 people are playing Stellaris on Steam right now. If there's a 1 in 100 chance of an unfun thing happening it's happened to 160 of them, and at least one poor unfortunate soul has had two 1 in 100 bad things happen to them twice in a row.

And for the love of everything please revamp derelict ship brain parasites event.

Don't want to be rude but, what is the point here? Whatever small chance, as long as it is not 0 will always happen to some player. The only solution here is deleting the thing altogether. And this is a game where this kind of things is supposed to happen. We can't really expect that exploring space and its many mysteries will be an easy task, if anything Stellaris is very forgiving in that regard. In any case, bad things happen, if nothing bad could ever happen then what is the point?

 

[FiddleSticks96]

Don't want to be rude but, what is the point here? Whatever small chance, as long as it is not 0 will always happen to some player. The only solution here is deleting the thing altogether. And this is a game where this kind of things is supposed to happen. We can't really expect that exploring space and its many mysteries will be an easy task, if anything Stellaris is very forgiving in that regard. In any case, bad things happen, if nothing bad could ever happen then what is the point?

"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q