Stellaris Dev Diary #369 - 4.0 Changes: Part 3

[Imp0815]

> In the future, logistical upkeep could potentially be used to counter-act Doomstacking, for example by scaling upkeep with the number of ships in a fleet, dividing by the number of fleets, fleets per system etc, we have no concrete solution yet, but welcome your thoughts.

My approach would be that each ship in a fleet has a supply bar (aggregated for the fleet) which slowly drains over time (improved by logistics techs). Once drained, it starts taking from the system supply, and if it runs out the ships gain major penalties to combat efficiency (low ammo, no spare parts, crew down to rations, etc). Fleets can visit a starbase with a supply depot to quickly refill supply.


Keeping a secure line back to your borders would allow automatic trade ships to reach your fleet tor replenish supply, or possibly adding a logistics freighter ship type you can send with a convoy. Juggernauts would be huge portable supply reservoirs.

Highly developed core worlds would be able to supply huge fleets while taking doomstacks into hostile territory would require logistics planning, securing lines of resupply, or quick hit-and-run tactics that can go terribly wrong if you get cut off from your empire. Smaller empires can use good scout ships and hit-and-run tactics to try to fight back by cutting supply.

There should be no hard limits to the fleets - if you can support a fleet of that size, you can support a fleet of that size.

This is a good approach! I would suggest that fleets should not "return" to supply stations, but rather that supply stations have a reach within which they can support fleets.

So, you need to develop your empire on the border to build up supply hubs to support offensive fleet deployment, or build them in the backline to have more systems to fall back into when you are on the defensive.

The supply hubs would provide a soft cap on how many fleets can be deployed and supplied by that hub. If you build enough hubs or have the technology for it, you can support more and bigger fleets within the radius of your hubs. To homogenize it, the hubs do not support fleets additively but locally, meaning there is a "supply per system" system. This way, you are not limited in fleets per hub but rather increase the limit per fleet per system based on the hub’s radius. Hubs don’t stack, so it’s more interesting to spread them strategically. The limit on how much supply can be put into a system by hubs in range is based more on technological level or other empire-defining traits like civics, ethics, and such.

To make the whole supply hub building much more decisive and important, they should be built as a major trade-off—massively expensive to build and maintain, and vulnerable. Maybe outposts could be also upgraded into supply hubs instead of stations? And take a really long time to do so.

 

[Archael90]

I dont like the removal of trade routes. While I agree that right now its just an useless feature that no one will miss, the potential of trade routes is too big to just remove them.

I agree that trade routes have amazing potential. But before they can do something really good with it, I would rather see it disappear. For now at least.

 

[Aoreyzus]

I think trade should be renamed to logistical points.

In Stellaris 4.0, Trade Value is no longer just commerce—it now represents both interstellar currency (used in the Galactic Market) and logistical infrastructure (used for fleet upkeep and planetary supply chains).

Since it serves two purposes, calling it just "Trade" is misleading.

How Warhammer 40K Got It Right​

This mirrors Requisition Points in Warhammer 40K: Space Marine 2, where players earn Requisition Points to:
Reinforce troops
Upgrade units
Gain strategic advantages

These points act as both a currency and a logistics measure, ensuring that the Imperium's supply chains function effectively.
This is exactly what the new Stellaris Trade system is doing.

The Real-World Equivalent: Capacity Reservations​

In the real world, companies don’t just buy shipping space when they need it—they pre-purchase logistical capacity through a system called Capacity Reservations.

For example:
A company can buy cargo space in advance from Maersk or UPS to guarantee future transportation.
These reserved logistics credits can even be traded between organizations.

 

[Ajacoba]

why "points"? at least call it "logistic capacity" or "logistic credits" (like Energy credits)

points is way too game like

 

[Archael90]

Trade used as logistic does not means it's logistic. It's oversimplificated mechanics that simulate a chain of commercial agreements that leads to transport goods, materials and maintenance resources to various places. All starts with currency to cover transport costs.

 

[Aoreyzus]

why "points"? at least call it "logistic capacity" or "logistic credits" (like Energy credits)

points is way too game like

I think perhaps moving the credit out of energy credit and attaching it to logistic to become logistic credits is a better move. Although I must say that Stellaris is kinda a game

 

[lordvagrant]

why in the world would you waste starbase capacity on covering entire trade routes? you barely have any in the first place

just send a a fleet over every time pirates spawn (or build some platforms if it repeatedly happens in the same system, even a basic outpost can field a few)

I did make fleets for patrolling though, but those are hardly a weight on my total capacity, most pirates are weak af, so you only need a few thousand strength in most cases

If you are losing hundreds of trade value per system without a starbase, you may need 6 or more covering starbases filled with hanger bays to negate the trade loss around your capital. You might as well build the starbases in a chain filled with useful modules (Navy Cap).
The pirate fleets are not a problem and can be dealt with easily.
Have a look in the Trade map mode, hover over the red skull and crossbones and see how much trade loss you have in each system.

It is possible to have 51 starbase capacity with only 50 systems.

 

[Critical Ethics]

The old system? Build an unbroken spine of starbases along your empire so that trade never gets disrupted by pirates, or micro manage patrol fleets (lowering fighting fleet ship count) to every distant starbase to stop piracy? And then needing to go to trade view to reset your starbases after battles as they do not automatically send trade to home.

And of course the late game solution of "drop a gate beside your homeworld to turn off the whole mechanic"

 

[Yordanavila27]

Fascinating everything, imagine creating an Origin in which you are a pirate Megacorporation and that in the criminal branches you can build a building that increases the logistical cost of the planet, something similar to the "Freebooters Origin" mod

 

[Yordanavila27]

Why not create in the Gestalt Empires an Origin in which you are a preview of the end-game Crisis Scourge Prethory and with a new crisis ascension in which when you finish it you become immersed in it, I think they have fallen far behind with respect to the other types of empires

 

[MindGizmoWizard]

just play a Oppressive Autocracy build that make enforcers into unity building machines. Also it is really easy to just go to war, just to get rid of their holdings, and just generally bully them. Also have a strong righteous governor can get rid of any crime too.

Sure, I can make a special build just to be able to deal with Criminal Syndicate's bullcrap, but taking them out entirely is the better option to eliminate this unprecedented hindrance while keeping my options open. I just can't find any fun with this unique mechanic, and there's nothing else like it, so it's easy enough to just keep it out.

 

[mathuser]

Mammalian Portraits​

Thanks, Gruntsatwork. Now a message from Content Design Lead @CGInglis :

And now my deer friends, one mooo-re surprise for you! The Stellaris 4.0 ‘Phoenix’ update brings ten paws-itively stunning new Mammalian portraits to the base game!

View attachment 1250944
Glass of milk, standing in between extinction in the cold, and explosive radiating growth…​

Wondering if any of these have reactive portraits for cyborgs. Last year, expanding the existing species phenotypes was mentioned with Plantoids II as an example.

Species Packs
When it comes to species, I could see us examining what kinds of life could arise on molten or frozen worlds, much like we did with Toxoids. Like Toxoids, they’d likely need some restrictions on what they can do with those worlds (as they’re 10x more abundant than normal habitable worlds), but they’d be interesting to explore. Players often ask for gaseous or energy creatures - the first are already represented to an extent by the Dathnak and the latter by the Unbidden. I feel that energy beings may go too far into fantasy “elementals”, so I’d like to stay away from them if possible. Expanding the existing species phenotypes could also potentially be interesting - Plantoids II, for example.

Hopefully soon, there will be more variety in choices for cyborg ascended phenotypes for each species along with more portraits being added. None of the species with species packs currently have any cybernetic reactive portraits, which could be a reason for having something like Plantoids II (also, Plantoids is the only species pack without an advisor voice).

Maybe in the future there will be reactive portraits for psionically ascended species phenotypes, too. The Mammalian portrait at the end looks like it fits, and this has been requested before. A DLC kind of like The Machine Age for psionics would be nice.

 

[Ajacoba]

Why not create in the Gestalt Empires an Origin in which you are a preview of the end-game Crisis Scourge Prethory and with a new crisis ascension in which when you finish it you become immersed in it, I think they have fallen far behind with respect to the other types of empires

Isn't that just basically ravenous swarm? Also hiveminds are already super strong, the lack of consumer goods simplifies their economy so you can start faster and their superior pop growth has the same effect

They will never let you team up with a crisis anyways, otherwise they would let us have join Cetana

 

[Ikael]

I liked the >potential< of the trade route mechanics, rather than its actual implementation, which was opaque and finicky.

It would have been dope to have visible trade routes hauling merchandise through the galaxy and creating strategic chokepoints, yes, but it seems that the toll on the game's performance would have been immense.

This brings me to the next question: How could we simulate trade routes with the new system? I think that there might be some ways to do it so without needing constant pathfinding calculations, in the same way, that the game will simulate logistics without those:

Step 1) Implement unique resources. As in, visible resources located on certain parts of the map, that would grant empire-wide bonuses to those empires that gain access to them. Voilá, there you got strategically important locations. You might, of course, conquer those vital parts of the galaxy to exert direct control (albeit if the galaxy generation does its job, they will be on each literal corner of the map, thus making controlling them quite a challenge). Or you might instead...

Step 2) Purchase merchant fleets with trade value and guide them to their location. That is, generate visible merchant ships that you would need to guide through the confines of the galaxy to reach those unique resource locations. Now you have visible trade routes plus something to do during peacetime (I do think that pacifist empires would benefit from this the most).

Step 3) Pay trade value upkeep, enjoy the fruits of trade, and forget about micro. Once you reach a unique resource location with your merchant fleet, the unique resource is yours forever (aka, the "imaginary trade route" has been established and you benefit from the bonuses of the unique resource). There is no need to be constantly micro-ing your merchant fleets. Just pay trade upkeep (to be determined by distance from your capital, like claims), and beware of local wars and occupation of the strategic resource location by genocidal empires, which would greatly increase the maintenance cost of said trade route. Trade routes could be canceled (broken) by the player if you deem their maintenance cost to be too high, but you wouldn't need to be constantly renewing them nor sending merchant fleets as long as you generate enough trade value to keep them going, just one merchant fleet per different resource would be enough for the entire game.

 

[guzl1]

Are there any plan about using technology to enhance trade in coming update? In the background, Trade may through transport ships. So, if an empire has any technology to increase speed of ships, trade may increase.

 

[yaiseka]

I have a few questions.
Some events, such as First Contact and Espionage, require the payment of energy as funding. Will these currencies also be replaced with Trade?
Also, the leader trait "Peacekeeper", which suppresses the occurrence of pirates, is expected to be effectively weakened by the abolition of piracy. Will there be any adjustments to these traits?

 

[Critical Ethics]

Are there any plan about using technology to enhance trade in coming update? In the background, Trade may through transport ships. So, if an empire has any technology to increase speed of ships, trade may increase.

Huh. One of the fundamental contradictions in Stellaris's ship setup is that it costs research to get a new hull, so having access to a new hull must be better than not having that hull, but there's a mandate against bigger hulls being just better than smaller hulls.

There's a bunch more stuff that can be written here about how there are obvious ways for this to work but the incompatability of highly customisable ships, complimentary niches, low combat depth, and an enforced 4 ship meta nix pretty much all of them, but that's for another time.

Ignoring that middle paragraph, one possible mitigation would be for the higher hull techs to come with a reduction to logistics upkeep, same as they come with a fleet size boost but more useful. 5% a hull would be a total of 15% when you research all 3, with the assumption being that once you research a new hull your internal logistics system starts making good use of it pretty sharpish. Even if you personally never build a single battleship your empire is still seeing a significant benefit.

 

[Critical Ethics]

I liked the >potential< of the trade route mechanics, rather than its actual implementation, which was opaque and finicky.

It would have been dope to have visible trade routes hauling merchandise through the galaxy and creating strategic chokepoints, yes, but it seems that the toll on the game's performance would have been immense.

Yup, I was pretty excited when the trade was first described back in the day (though I felt trade and energy should be split out from the start). I enjoyed it for a while, and then grew to loathe it when the novelty wore off and I found myself forced to engage with a dumb fiddly minigame with its own screen Every. Single. Game (and the even worse at launch starbase build screen). That's why I like the new system. The old system was a whole bunch of extra stuff I needed to do that did nothing except make my yellow mana go up faster or slower. It tore my attention from the rest of the game while not really providing any broader gameplay. This new system as described is the opposite - it adds additional gameplay to a bunch of existing systems while not bolting any new weird isolated little minigames to district me from the game.

This brings me to the next question: How could we simulate trade routes with the new system? I think that there might be some ways to do it so without needing constant pathfinding calculations, in the same way, that the game will simulate logistics without those:

Step 1) Implement unique resources. As in, visible resources located on certain parts of the map, that would grant empire-wide bonuses to those empires that gain access to them. Voilá, there you got strategically important locations. You might, of course, conquer those vital parts of the galaxy to exert direct control (albeit if the galaxy generation does its job, they will be on each literal corner of the map, thus making controlling them quite a challenge). Or you might instead...

Step 2) Purchase merchant fleets with trade value and guide them to their location. That is, generate visible merchant ships that you would need to guide through the confines of the galaxy to reach those unique resource locations. Now you have visible trade routes plus something to do during peacetime (I do think that pacifist empires would benefit from this the most).

Step 3) Pay trade value upkeep, enjoy the fruits of trade, and forget about micro. Once you reach a unique resource location with your merchant fleet, the unique resource is yours forever (aka, the "imaginary trade route" has been established and you benefit from the bonuses of the unique resource). There is no need to be constantly micro-ing your merchant fleets. Just pay trade upkeep (to be determined by distance from your capital, like claims), and beware of local wars and occupation of the strategic resource location by genocidal empires, which would greatly increase the maintenance cost of said trade route. Trade routes could be canceled (broken) by the player if you deem their maintenance cost to be too high, but you wouldn't need to be constantly renewing them nor sending merchant fleets as long as you generate enough trade value to keep them going, just one merchant fleet per different resource would be enough for the entire game.

And now the bad news... manually steering a guy around my empire to end up with the same mechanical effect as just building another clerk building is exactly the kind of weird little side minigame with minimal broader gameplay impact that I'm talking about. I don't want to have to take a break from playing Stellaris to do that, nor do I want to be down the trade value I'd be giving up not to.

 

[Shemo4701]

Good day.
I would like the game developers to include this, like Relic Wars. Sometimes, empires have excavation sites in their territory that cannot be excavated, or they obtain them by other means. If we could somehow have a casus beli on an empire for their relic, that would also bring and change the gameplay dynamic excitingly, as it would give us more choice to use the variety of relics in the game. Also, improving trade for a specific empire, i.e., the trade negotiations between empires only. Make sure that every empire has somewhat of a breaking point for the right resources or systems you want to obtain from that empire. They should, or at least give a hint of what would satisfy the trade deal. I see that the history timeline has been added, and I commend the developers for that because I have also been asking for it to be added for a long time.

 

[Ajacoba]

Good day.
I would like the game developers to include this, like Relic Wars. Sometimes, empires have excavation sites in their territory that cannot be excavated, or they obtain them by other means. If we could somehow have a casus beli on an empire for their relic, that would also bring and change the gameplay dynamic excitingly, as it would give us more choice to use the variety of relics in the game. Also, improving trade for a specific empire, i.e., the trade negotiations between empires only. Make sure that every empire has somewhat of a breaking point for the right resources or systems you want to obtain from that empire. They should, or at least give a hint of what would satisfy the trade deal. I see that the history timeline has been added, and I commend the developers for that because I have also been asking for it to be added for a long time.

Every time you invade the capital you have a fixed chance to steal their relics

It increases if you have the despoiler civic and use their special casus belli

You just need to use espionage to get enough insights so you can check the victory screen for who even has relics in the first place