Stellaris Dev Diary #379 - You Are What You Eat

[Abdulijubjub]

While having an upkeep of one of the rarest resources and having literally no other effects at all

The dark matter upkeep of DME is not a serious impediment, though it does put a damper on things. Even if you buy it from the market at the maximum possible price, it's equivalent to an extra 0.02*20*5*1.3=2.6 energy upkeep per pop.

For technicians/tech drones, it's a straightforward 18.3% boost.
For everything else, it's a function of your technician's output. If you have e.g. +200% output to your technicians before DME, the math works out so that you divert 6.35% of pops to technicians and keep the rest. For a worker with a similar +200% output bonus, the total is (1+2+0.4)*0.9365=3.1841, or the same 18.3% boost (ignoring the sig figs lost by the aggressive rounding).

If you had +200% on that job before, it's a 18.3% boost. If you had +100% before, it's a 24.7% boost. etc.

The boost is higher if your technicians are even more powerful, lower if they're weaker.

---

And this is all before taking into account pop upkeep reductions (25% from the Synthetics tree, -10% from Harmony/Synchronicity, -5% from having an Advisor like the Growth Node, etc.), which makes the boost even higher. It's also assuming you buy your Dark Matter from the market at the highest possible price (a whopping 130 energy per dark matter).

And, of course, if you have a strong source of dark matter (Dark Consortium, Portal/Anomaly researchers, etc.) you might not even have to buy enough to drive the price up that far.

Basically: you can treat DME as a no-drawbacks +20%ish boost and you won't be far off in most realistic post-ascension scenarios for standard Machines, or +30% for Synths (who get a -25% upkeep reduction for free).

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Btw, don't robots have absolutely crappy pop growth, so I could literally just get two bio-pop with +20% each and out-produce your one +40% robot by a lot without having to pay any dark matter even?

No, physical synth and Modularity machine growth has been just as good (better, in extreme cases) as genetic ascension's growth, since Machine Age.

Their growth is expensive (because they have to invest pops into working Replicator jobs), but that's not the same thing as being weak.

Hopefully that changes with Biogenesis, though.

You can't even conquer and assimilate other empires as robots unless you luck out and find a robot empire, while bio-empires can conquer/buy anything with a pulse

As machines, no. As synths, yes.

That's kinda the design idea of Stellaris anyways, that different builds achieve similar levels of overall power through different means

This only applies if the power level is the same. Currently they're not. Genetic is just weaker in every respect.

 

[Ajacoba]

No, physical synth and Modularity machine growth has been just as good (better, in extreme cases) as genetic ascension's growth, since Machine Age.

This only applies if the power level is the same. Currently they're not. Genetic is just weaker in every respect.

So it's fixed now?!
Genetic ascension gets buffed and gets to be as strong as synth ascension, just in different ways

Same as synths and biological species have different base stats

 

[Foxosaur]

Really interested in the new starbase modules / upgrades, look forward to next week.

 

[Mech_infect]

But evolutionary predator is immune to modifications
That would be as pointless as taking clone origin and overtuned
Or life-seeded and void borne
Or life-seeded and lost colony (your homeworld gets to be gaia and your capital does not, lol)

I understand that there may not be enough imagination and you may not have such an enterprising view of things, being able to combine and get not a conflict kit, but something third, interestingly playing with the original premises.

What if the combination can give theft of genes but at the same time adapt them to the species in a completely exaggerated sick way. And collecting the best genes after processing the gene material gets an absolutely sick result in the style of overtuning body horror (on paper and gene perks). No? Still funny and meaningless? Okay dude, whatever you say, this is just an assumption within the framework of one big idea of dual origins.

And you know, of course there will be incompatible origins, just as there are now incompatible civics, etc. For this there are beta tests, a sense of adequacy, measures and refinement of the idea. So of course, if we speak a little realistically, there will be blocks on some combinations. I talked about this before.

For now, I'm just sharing the feeling of potential of the idea with people.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

So it's fixed now?!
Genetic ascension gets buffed and gets to be as strong as synth ascension, just in different ways

Same as synths and biological species have different base stats

The amount of extra growth they would need in order to compensate for machine/synth's more efficient pops (assuming they don't get even better traits) would be very high, though. Empire size and conquest exist, which both put a damper on the actual benefits you can get from just growing a boatload of extra pops.

We'll see. Paradox could do a lackluster buff that still isn't enough, or give them such an enormous boost that they're absolutely busted (and poor psionic is left even farther in the dust until its own DLC comes out), or anything in between.

That's why I'm only objecting to incorrect statements about the current state of the game. It's pointless to speculate until we see the full trees/traits (and how they interact with the new workforce economy).

 

[small tree]

Btw, don't robots have absolutely crappy pop growth, so I could literally just get two bio-pop with +20% each and out-produce your one +40% robot by a lot without having to pay any dark matter even?

You can't even conquer and assimilate other empires as robots unless you luck out and find a robot empire, while bio-empires can conquer/buy anything with a pulse

That's kinda the design idea of Stellaris anyways, that different builds achieve similar levels of overall power through different means

Actually, when you obtain the Fallen Robot Assembly Plant through the Crisis path, its population assembly rate far surpasses that of organic pop growth.

 

[Ajacoba]

Actually, when you obtain the Fallen Robot Assembly Plant through the Crisis path, its population assembly rate far surpasses that of organic pop growth.

That's crisis though, not a normal playthrough

 

[small tree]

That's crisis though, not a normal playthrough

Damn translation slightly distorted my meaning. The robot assembly plant I'm referring to is obtainable through normal gameplay - specifically via the Synthetic Age's Crisis Ascension path. I'm not sure how else to explain it, but that's how you unlock the assembly plant I mentioned.

 

[Ajacoba]

Which is a crisis path, not a normal playthrough

 

[small tree]

Which is a crisis path, not a normal playthrough

Hold on—are you seriously claiming becoming the Crisis doesn't count as legitimate play?!

 

[Ajacoba]

Hold on—are you seriously claiming becoming the Crisis doesn't count as legitimate play?!

it's a hyperspecific build
you shouldn't have to become the crisis just to get good pop growth

 

[Spaceman78]

Since we are getting bioships, I hope we are also getting the corresponding portraits; spinovore and shellcraft portraits.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

I wonder how perfect habitability worlds work with the 200% habitability cap in the genetics tree. Would a Gaia world automatically give 200% habitability or would it give a floor of 100% habitability. I look forward to finding out.

 

[Imp0815]

Looking forward to the new additions—my genetically ascended bat people are ready to build a military-industrial complex and dominate the galaxy with MEAT SHIPS. Feels like a natural fit with the core gameplay loop.

 

[Dlin369]

Can we get more negative traits to mirror positive ones? So an “Unintelligent” trait to mirror Intelligent or an “Extremely Weak” trait to be the level 2 equivalent of Extremely Strong?

 

[Ajacoba]

Can we get more negative traits to mirror positive ones? So an “Unintelligent” trait to mirror Intelligent or an “Extremely Weak” trait to be the level 2 equivalent of Extremely Strong?

coward, extremely weak should be bad enough to be worthy of being a -4 trait! XD

 

[Calvax]

Actually, when you obtain the Fallen Robot Assembly Plant through the Crisis path, its population assembly rate far surpasses that of organic pop growth.

Not that I disagree some ME balance is wonky, but if you’re running the assumption of cosmogenesis then you’re already off the norm the game is balanced around.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Can we get more negative traits to mirror positive ones? So an “Unintelligent” trait to mirror Intelligent or an “Extremely Weak” trait to be the level 2 equivalent of Extremely Strong?

I am sceptical about negative traits whose effects can easily be avoided. For instance, the Weak penalty to Worker jobs can be easily avoided by building robots or obtaining other species, and then this "negative" trait basically becomes a free trait point.

In my opinion, negative trait effects need to be unavoidable in order to be balanced.
Repugnant pops could consume +25% Amenities, rather than (mostly only theoretically) producing -20% Amenities from jobs,
Quarrelsome could affect Faction Unity rather than job output Unity,
Slow Learners, Jinxed and Fleeting should always be unavailable for pops that can't produce leaders (like Serviles),
and so on.

 

[grommile]

I am sceptical about negative traits whose effects can easily be avoided.

Almost all negative traits are relatively easily managed once you get out of the early game, unless you are Fanatical Xenophobe or a genocidal gestalt.