Hey all!

Today’s topic will further explore the subjects of fleet movement, FTL-travel and the general wonders one might happen upon when ripping holes through subspace. As the writing of this is a bit sudden the dev diary came out late today, our apologies!
The galaxy is a pretty huge place and to get anywhere in a timely manner you’ll want to travel faster than the speed of light, or use FTL-travel for short. Stellaris will have three methods of FTL that players can use; Warp, Hyperlanes and Wormholes. They all have distinct advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the strategic movement of ships and fleets causing expansion paths, diplomacy and wars to be quite different depending on the method used.

Warp
Warp requires each ship in the fleet to be equipped with a Warp Drive. These are quite costly to build and cause a major drain on each ship’s available power, but allows unconstrained travel to any system within range. When travelling to a system outside the range of a single warp-jump, the fleet has to make a sequence of jumps through a number of systems. Any jump puts a considerable strain on a ship’s Warp Drive, causing the fleet to not be able to jump again for a short while after arrival. While this can be reduced by more advanced technology, it does remain a weak point throughout the game for any species using this method.
Fleets using Warp Drives to travel will need to do so at the edge of a system to lessen the gravitational pull of the local star. This in combination with the fact that warp-jumps have the slowest FTL-speed of the three methods means that the arrival point of an incoming warp-fleet can be identified, and possibly ambushed. The cost of freedom is potentially high!

Wormhole
Some species have decided to sidestep this whole business of blasting through the void at ludicrous speed. They prefer to open up a temporary wormhole that a fleet may use to instantly travel to a distant system. These wormholes can only be generated by a Wormhole Station, a type of space station that can only be constructed on the outer edge of a system. Any fleet wanting to travel will have to use the Wormhole Station as a connecting point, passing through it whenever they leave the system. The station may only generate a single wormhole at a time, forcing all ships and fleets to wait while one is being prepared. The larger the fleet, the longer it takes for the Wormhole Station to be ready. The wormhole generated does allow two-way travel, but will collapse almost instantly after sending a fleet through.
Constructing and maintaining an efficient network of Wormhole Stations is vital to any species using wormholes, as it will allow sending huge fleets from one part of the galaxy to another in very short time. It also allows striking deep inside enemy territory with little warning. This great strength can also be a great weakness, as fleets are left with no means of further offense or retreat should the network be disabled through covert attacks by enemy strike-fleets.

Hyperdrive
The galaxy in Stellaris has a hidden network of hyperlanes connecting the systems, only visible for those who know where to look. Ships that are equipped with a Hyperdrive can access these lanes and use them to traverse the galaxy at incredible speed. They are however bound by the preexisting network, and has to path through each system connecting their current location and target. Galactic voids lacking systems are in effect huge movement-blockers for any species using hyperlanes, having few systems allowing possible crossings. An enemy could potentially fortify these vital systems should they become aware of their existence, creating strategic choke-points. As the hyperlanes exist in subspace, fleets may access them from anywhere within a system and does not have to travel from the gravitational edge as Warp Drives and Wormhole Stations do. As such, catching a fleet using hyperlanes can be tricky. Correctly identifying the paths to intercept and interrupt their somewhat long charge-up is probably your best bet.

All methods of FTL-travel can be improved by researching more advanced technologies. While their exact effects differ some they all improve the speed, range, efficiency or cooldown of FTL-travel. However, being able to casually bend time and space with increased power does not necessarily mean using it with more responsibility. As additional species bend the laws of physics to send larger and larger fleets through the galaxy, there is always the risk of something, or someone, noticing...

Next week we’ll talk more about the different species in the galaxy. Look forward to it!

 

[illathid]

Wormholes are destructable. (To anyone). Hyperlanes can be ambushed. (By warp). Which is worse? However, the speed dimension is compensated for the lack of safety, as I in vision it.

Not sure what you mean by the (by warp) thing. Anyone could potentially ambush a hyperlane fleet.

That being said, I think the potential for ambush is worse than the possibility of having the wormhole stations be destroyed. If an enemy wants to destroy one of my wormhole stations they'd need to deal with all the fortifications I had placed in the system and I would always have more than one station in the system; which makes it very unlikely they could casually take out a station without excessive forces and/or lots of losses.

 

[Denkt]

Advantages in pink, disadvantages in orange

Warp: Each ship need a warp drive however you can probably create a carrier ship to transport ships that lack a warp drive. To use the warp you need to be at the edge of a system which makes retreat hard. Even worse warp drive have a significant cold down period, a wrong move and your fleet is gone. An enemy could leave a system with weak defence which may encourage you to warp in for attack in which case the enemy could move in a much more powerful fleet in an ambush with your fleet having no chance to retreat because of the cold down and gravity which makes warp impossible. Warp drive allow free movement which make it hard for the enemy to defend against. Warp drive can quickly make strike against multiple key planets and have an easy time sending reinforcement to there they are needed.

Wormhole: Ships don't need a system which reduce their cost or maybe allow them to add something else making them more powerful then the ships of races that use the other FTL methods. Like with warp drive you need to be at the edge of the system it also take time to create a wormhole, the larger the fleet the more time it take. You need to build stations who create the wormholes which mean an extra investment. Range of the wormhole station may be large but is not infinite forcing you to build a system of stations. If a station is destroyed it can be very hard to defend your empire as well as launching attacks on the enemy. Wormhole could be said to allow even more freer movement then warp because of its long range, it can reach deep into the enemy core systems allowing for some very strong surprise attacks. Wormhole overall could be seen as a more collective choice then warp drive, less flexibility but more direct power.

Hyperlane: Each ship need a hyper drive much similar to the warp drive requirement for warp. Freedom of moment is very limited as your ship need to follow a set path. This mean an enemy can see which system the hyperlane fleet can target allowing for concentration of defence with less risks then other FTL methods. Because of the set path it may be very slow over long distance which force a very spred out fleet to defend a large empire. However at short distances it is very fast and it is the only drive that don't need to be at the edge of the system to work. This make it very tricky to catch a hyper lane fleet as it always have the choice of retreat as long as the hyperdrive have completed its short colddown. Hyperlane are a choice of safety but you will have a hard time using the fancy strategies the other drives can use.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Not sure what you mean by the (by warp) thing. Anyone could potentially ambush a hyperlane fleet.

That being said, I think the potential for ambush is worse than the possibility of having the wormhole stations be destroyed. If an enemy wants to destroy one of my wormhole stations they'd need to deal with all the fortifications I had placed in the system and I would always have more than one station in the system; which makes it very unlikely they could casually take out a station without excessive forces and/or lots of losses.

The Choice between Wormholes and Hyperlanes may be:
Spending resources to 'Fortify' wormholes on specific Worlds OR
Spending resources to 'Convoy' Fleets on specific Hyperlane paths.

Isn't the choice really the same? In SC2, it's like building 2 photon cannons OR Building a Bunker with unloadable Marines.

Note: The unloadable Marines (or 'convoy') choice, although meant to safeguard a mobile force may be GREATER than the 2 photon cannon choice ('or 'fortify') choice because of the Fleet Flexibility and addition, on the move.

And, really: when is spending resources on a static defense an advantage?
The advantage of wormholes, imo, would be in 'jump savings'

 

[illathid]

The Choice between Wormholes and Hyperlanes may be:
Spending resources to 'Fortify' wormholes on specific Worlds OR
Spending resources to 'Convoy' Fleets on specific Hyperlane paths.

Isn't the choice really the same? In SC2, it's like building 2 photon cannons OR Building a Bunker with unloadable Marines.

Note: The unloadable Marines (or 'convoy') choice, although meant to safeguard a mobile force may be GREATER than the 2 photon cannon choice ('or 'fortify') choice because of the Fleet Flexibility and addition, on the move.

And, really: when is spending resources on a static defense an advantage?
The advantage of wormholes, imo, would be in 'jump savings'

No idea what SC2 is. Its not necessarily that static defenses are an advantage, it's just a way to make up for a weakness. As some typically uses 'turtle' type gameplay, I'd be building defensive structures anyways. So there's little additional investment on my part to overcome one of their weaknesses.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Advantages in pink, disadvantages in orange

Warp: Each ship need a warp drive however you can probably create a carrier ship to transport ships that lack a warp drive. To use the warp you need to be at the edge of a system which makes retreat hard. Even worse warp drive have a significant cold down period, a wrong move and your fleet is gone. An enemy could leave a system with weak defence which may encourage you to warp in for attack in which case the enemy could move in a much more powerful fleet in an ambush with your fleet having no chance to retreat because of the cold down and gravity which makes warp impossible. Warp drive allow free movement which make it hard for the enemy to defend against. Warp drive can quickly make strike against multiple key planets and have an easy time sending reinforcement to there they are needed.

Wormhole: Ships don't need a system which reduce their cost or maybe allow them to add something else making them more powerful then the ships of races that use the other FTL methods. Like with warp drive you need to be at the edge of the system it also take time to create a wormhole, the larger the fleet the more time it take. You need to build stations who create the wormholes which mean an extra investment. Range of the wormhole station may be large but is not infinite forcing you to build a system of stations. If a station is destroyed it can be very hard to defend your empire as well as launching attacks on the enemy. Wormhole could be said to allow even more freer movement then warp because of its long range, it can reach deep into the enemy core systems allowing for some very strong surprise attacks. Wormhole overall could be seen as a more collective choice then warp drive, less flexibility but more direct power.

Hyperlane: Each ship need a hyper drive much similar to the warp drive requirement for warp. Freedom of moment is very limited as your ship need to follow a set path. This mean an enemy can see which system the hyperlane fleet can target allowing for concentration of defence with less risks then other FTL methods. Because of the set path it may be very slow over long distance which force a very spred out fleet to defend a large empire. However at short distances it is very fast and it is the only drive that don't need to be at the edge of the system to work. This make it very tricky to catch a hyper lane fleet as it always have the choice of retreat as long as the hyperdrive have completed its short colddown. Hyperlane are a choice of safety but you will have a hard time using the fancy strategies the other drives can use.

I wonder what the cost of the Warp drive engine is compared to a wormhole station. My guess is warp drive would have to be cheaper on a small number of ships and more expensive on a medium/large number of ships, because moving Fleets 'in mass' would be a Wormhole benefit too. Warp may be better at early attacks. Wormhole, being able to reach deep into enemy core systems, late in the game, may be better at later attacks.

Also, sounds like the Hyperlane is Cheaper than the Warp drive; in fact, it's the cheapest choice, therefore, my guess is hyperlanes would be cheaper on even a small/medium sized fleet compared to a wormhole. However, with the Hyperlanes, there is a sacrifice of freer ability to attack from both warp and wormhole, it would seem. The advantage of Hyperlanes is you can move when you're ready, no timing charge like wormholes, and no delay like warp. Wormholes may be better at troop massing, and sending all at once.

Is the wait and cost of Warp Drive and Wormhole Stations, worth it, compared to Hyperlanes? Depends on whether you've got Hubs for large fleets in a Wormhole case, or if you're doing early attacks, or sending reinforcements, I guess. IMO: Personally, I don't have a leaning towards Warp, because of my probable style of play, but that doesn't mean it's not a good choice. I am still facinated by Wormholes, but I also like Hyperlanes if they (Wormholes) are too costly.

 

[echo2361]

Yes on the fleet UI there is clearly a Split Half button, and the other usual management buttons - The fleets are just the same as they are in other Paradox games, the regiments/ships so forth can be moved around freely, you could easily split the fleet into half twice, or something and warp them in three different directions.

I'm curious to see if every fleet or individual ship will need an Admiral/leader like SOTS 2 or if there is just free movement. We've seen paradox is taking other inspirations from SOTS so that mechanic would be interesting to see.

 

[King of Malta]

I wonder what the cost of the Warp drive engine is compared to a wormhole station. My guess is warp drive would have to be cheaper on a small number of ships and more expensive on a medium/large number of ships, because moving Fleets 'in mass' would be a Wormhole benefit too. Warp may be better at early attacks. Wormhole, being able to reach deep into enemy core systems, late in the game, may be better at later attacks.

Also, sounds like the Hyperlane is Cheaper than the Warp drive; in fact, it's the cheapest choice, therefore, my guess is hyperlanes would be cheaper on even a small/medium sized fleet compared to a wormhole. However, with the Hyperlanes, there is a sacrifice of freer ability to attack from both warp and wormhole, it would seem. The advantage of Hyperlanes is you can move when you're ready, no timing charge like wormholes, and no delay like warp. Wormholes may be better at troop massing, and sending all at once.

Is the wait and cost of Warp Drive and Wormhole Stations, worth it, compared to Hyperlanes? Depends on whether you've got Hubs for large fleets in a Wormhole case, or if you're doing early attacks, or sending reinforcements, I guess. IMO: Personally, I don't have a leaning towards Warp, because of my probable style of play, but that doesn't mean it's not a good choice. I am still facinated by Wormholes, but I also like Hyperlanes if they (Wormholes) are too costly.

Will it be cheaper to have two worm hole stations, and divide your fleet in between them? It says it takes longer for one wormhole station to send a large fleet through so I wonder if you have pick which ships in your fleet call for what wormhole to go through.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Will it be cheaper to have two worm hole stations, and divide your fleet in between them? It says it takes longer for one wormhole station to send a large fleet through so I wonder if you have pick which ships in your fleet call for what wormhole to go through.

Well, that certainly is a Possibility. Perhaps, the Wormhole Station is subdivided, negating Fleet size. So, to move a Large Fleet, perhaps 3 wormhole stations for 3 ships, and for a Medium fleet 2 for 2 ships, and small 1 total wormhole station for 1 ship. (for example).

Although, admittedly, my 1st thought was having just the minimum number of stations between worlds and being able to transport unlimited (up to infinite) at a time, but not if this subdivided, which if true, would change the formula to a finite number of ships per station per time. The subdivided wormhole would also have to be darn cheap to justify, and in the long game, it may not be all the attack its cracked up to be for a long range, unless the finite fleet size number was upgradable to a larger number.

How many wormhole stations would you build per world to world transfer would you build? Easy to over do, which could mean less of everything else.

In otherwords, unless I get the hub formula and amount of connections to and from each world right, there could easily be a crisis. It's not an easy Hyperlane choice, even though the wormhole may be worth it. I really want to pick wormholes, I hope they're Good!

 

[Denkt]

It is possible that wormhole stations have some sort of upkeep or other form of limit, if you could build huge number of them you would basically have all its advantages with no disadvantage at all which would break the game.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

It is possible that wormhole stations have some sort of upkeep or other form of limit, if you could build huge number of them you would basically have all its advantages with no disadvantage at all which would break the game.

I agree, there should be limits, although it kills the dream somewhat. If ships cost more because of their drives, then a wormhole station (which is like a reusable ship drive, in building form), should also have the same costs! Whereas: Hyperlanes get you moving right away, and warp is free movement! (But, their not "reusable")

 

[Kuschelflummi]

Do you have a source for that?

I can't find the post, but I think a Dev mentioned something like that.
It would actually make sense. But it also disable 2 Stations for normale travel.

 

[*Aqua*]

If you can find the source, please tell me. I think that statement is important enough to add it to the wiki.

If that's true it would make wormhole tech OP. With permanent wormholes you could set up your own "hyperlane" network.

 

[Kuschelflummi]

If you can find the source, please tell me. I think that statement is important enough to add it to the wiki.

If that's true it would make wormhole tech OP. With permanent wormholes you could set up your own "hyperlane" network.

Its not really OP, because you have to build 2 station for a lane and they can be destroyed.

 

[*Aqua*]

That's true but look at the other facts:
Hyperlane travel isn't instantaneous, wormholes are.
Both need time for the drives/station to activate. If you could build permanent wormholes that activation time would go away.

Or in short intra nation travel would be (almost?) instantaneous for wormhole species. The other FTL techs don't provide something similiar. That's why I think it's op.

 

[Kuschelflummi]

I also might have misread something regarding this point. At least I can't find it.

It depends in how expansive Wormhole Stations are.

 

[Danarcis]

That's true but look at the other facts:
Hyperlane travel isn't instantaneous, wormholes are.
Both need time for the drives/station to activate. If you could build permanent wormholes that activation time would go away.

Or in short intra nation travel would be (almost?) instantaneous for wormhole species. The other FTL techs don't provide something similiar. That's why I think it's op.

They are seemingly already playtesting it, and will obviously try to keep them all balanced
So either what we have heard so far isnt imbalanced, or they will try to make it balanced. A simple thing could be to have big requirements to make a hub or make it expensive.

So I dont really think you can argue for imbalance based on our limited knowledge so far

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

They are seemingly already playtesting it, and will obviously try to keep them all balanced
So either what we have heard so far isnt imbalanced, or they will try to make it balanced. A simple thing could be to have big requirements to make a hub or make it expensive.

So I dont really think you can argue for imbalance based on our limited knowledge so far

Maybe, this is just an idea, for Wormhole Stations to reach more spots on the map than Hyperlanes for example, there would be a small Upkeep cost of that 'Hub' (a Hub could be defined as more than 3 connections). And, then, you could designate where from the Hub your ship goes to, when the 'timing charge' (which is really like a drive cooldown) is ready for use (ship transport). This is because at more than 3 connections, or whatever the number is, would represent an advantage! (Even though the payback would be further out because of station cost). The main disadvantages, I can think of for an early hub is the cost of scouting, I would think. Other races who choose Hyperlanes or Warp would have an Easier time scouting early on, I would think. However, hubs, once in place, are a great thing! And, because the distance to explore opportunities is larger initially because of the range, so being selective about where to scout is crucial for wormholes, which are 2 or 3 connections out for Hyperlanes for example, which is the distance I'm speaking of.

 

[Denkt]

You are correct that theoreticly wormhole have the hardest time at exploring while hyperlane have easiest (if you don't care anything about flexibility) Hyperlane have also the easiest time to retreat if any space monster are spotted (don't know if the game have space monsters).

 

[*Aqua*]

The main disadvantages, I can think of for an early hub is the cost of scouting, I would think.

So far it looks like the all space ships are player controlled which means wormholes are only created if the player orders a fleet to go somewhere. And usually a player only has a small number of fleets because they are easier to handle than a large number. Which brings up the question if a hub is needed at all. If there are only 2-3 fleets in a region of space do we really need extra wormhole capacity?

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

So far it looks like the all space ships are player controlled which means wormholes are only created if the player orders a fleet to go somewhere. And usually a player only has a small number of fleets because they are easier to handle than a large number. Which brings up the question if a hub is needed at all. If there are only 2-3 fleets in a region of space do we really need extra wormhole capacity?

Yes, hubs are needed in larger empires, to be justified. Yes, hubs are needed to go to more places (scouting). Also, I imagine scouting more than just 2-3 places. Where am I going to place, not my 2nd, but 3rd colony for when I expand?