Hey all!

Today’s topic will further explore the subjects of fleet movement, FTL-travel and the general wonders one might happen upon when ripping holes through subspace. As the writing of this is a bit sudden the dev diary came out late today, our apologies!
The galaxy is a pretty huge place and to get anywhere in a timely manner you’ll want to travel faster than the speed of light, or use FTL-travel for short. Stellaris will have three methods of FTL that players can use; Warp, Hyperlanes and Wormholes. They all have distinct advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the strategic movement of ships and fleets causing expansion paths, diplomacy and wars to be quite different depending on the method used.

Warp
Warp requires each ship in the fleet to be equipped with a Warp Drive. These are quite costly to build and cause a major drain on each ship’s available power, but allows unconstrained travel to any system within range. When travelling to a system outside the range of a single warp-jump, the fleet has to make a sequence of jumps through a number of systems. Any jump puts a considerable strain on a ship’s Warp Drive, causing the fleet to not be able to jump again for a short while after arrival. While this can be reduced by more advanced technology, it does remain a weak point throughout the game for any species using this method.
Fleets using Warp Drives to travel will need to do so at the edge of a system to lessen the gravitational pull of the local star. This in combination with the fact that warp-jumps have the slowest FTL-speed of the three methods means that the arrival point of an incoming warp-fleet can be identified, and possibly ambushed. The cost of freedom is potentially high!

Wormhole
Some species have decided to sidestep this whole business of blasting through the void at ludicrous speed. They prefer to open up a temporary wormhole that a fleet may use to instantly travel to a distant system. These wormholes can only be generated by a Wormhole Station, a type of space station that can only be constructed on the outer edge of a system. Any fleet wanting to travel will have to use the Wormhole Station as a connecting point, passing through it whenever they leave the system. The station may only generate a single wormhole at a time, forcing all ships and fleets to wait while one is being prepared. The larger the fleet, the longer it takes for the Wormhole Station to be ready. The wormhole generated does allow two-way travel, but will collapse almost instantly after sending a fleet through.
Constructing and maintaining an efficient network of Wormhole Stations is vital to any species using wormholes, as it will allow sending huge fleets from one part of the galaxy to another in very short time. It also allows striking deep inside enemy territory with little warning. This great strength can also be a great weakness, as fleets are left with no means of further offense or retreat should the network be disabled through covert attacks by enemy strike-fleets.

Hyperdrive
The galaxy in Stellaris has a hidden network of hyperlanes connecting the systems, only visible for those who know where to look. Ships that are equipped with a Hyperdrive can access these lanes and use them to traverse the galaxy at incredible speed. They are however bound by the preexisting network, and has to path through each system connecting their current location and target. Galactic voids lacking systems are in effect huge movement-blockers for any species using hyperlanes, having few systems allowing possible crossings. An enemy could potentially fortify these vital systems should they become aware of their existence, creating strategic choke-points. As the hyperlanes exist in subspace, fleets may access them from anywhere within a system and does not have to travel from the gravitational edge as Warp Drives and Wormhole Stations do. As such, catching a fleet using hyperlanes can be tricky. Correctly identifying the paths to intercept and interrupt their somewhat long charge-up is probably your best bet.

All methods of FTL-travel can be improved by researching more advanced technologies. While their exact effects differ some they all improve the speed, range, efficiency or cooldown of FTL-travel. However, being able to casually bend time and space with increased power does not necessarily mean using it with more responsibility. As additional species bend the laws of physics to send larger and larger fleets through the galaxy, there is always the risk of something, or someone, noticing...

Next week we’ll talk more about the different species in the galaxy. Look forward to it!

 

[chopak]

Short answer:
Yes you will be able to send second fleet right awat.

long answer:
I think you just don't know what Hub means. It's not upgraded wormhole station but just word describing highly connected nodes or important transportation centers. Like bus terminals or big raiproad stations where you usually can easilly change from train to tram or bus or train you would not be able to get in at your home station. With many wormhole stations in one systems you'll effectively have something similar. Instead of having distributed net of lonely stations you make many of them in one system. Now you need to pass through hub system every time but your overall transport ability is practically increased.

 

[chopak]

EDIT: I think I now understand, after reading and re-reading.
(...)
It's not simultaneous use of a station. It's not cool down. It's basically, the advantage of multiple use. Multiple use allows for more capacity, as you put it. You could use all 3 stations at once!

yup! Looks like yougot it!

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

yup! Looks like yougot it!

Another thought occured. How would rally points be implemented?

If I created 2 ships from System A. (rally to System D).
If I created 4 ships from system B. (rally to System D).
If I created 2 ship from system C, (rally to System D).

Given I have a 4 wormhole stations and a 5 gigaton for 2 ships.

With multiple use, Would I be able to designate 2 stations to System B, 1 station to System A, 1 station to System C?

So, (3 days + 1 day per gigaton) = 8 days. (for 2 ships in B)
So, (3 days + 1 day per gigaton) = 8 days. (for 2 ships in B)
same is true, for each line above with System A and C.

Note: by designating 2 stations to B, instead of 1, that would give a time savings.
Instead it would be 13 days without the multiple use advantage.

Maybe, the computer would be smart, and be able to calculate how many stations to designate to each system, given all the various rally points?

 

[chopak]

I have no idea You have to ask devs. I'd say gates are designated on first come first serve basis.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

@Jormungandur Game Designer, DD.

How do rally points work for wormhole users, given a station, multiple stations, or even several station Hubs? Would each station have to be designated to be able to rally to or from a system? Would the computer be able to figure out how many to use for a specific system or multiple systems, with multiple rally points in use? What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Velorian]

Hopefully rally points are just assigned the last place for transfers, along with trade ships if they are modelled. Any automatic transfer, while convenient, should always be moved to the back of the queue compared to a transfer backed up by a player order. Presumably it's important to you if you ordered it.

I wonder though, is a station automatically assigned to a fleet when you click "move to system" or do you order a station to make a portal to where the fleet is?

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Hopefully rally points are just assigned the last place for transfers, along with trade ships if they are modelled. Any automatic transfer, while convenient, should always be moved to the back of the queue compared to a transfer backed up by a player order. Presumably it's important to you if you ordered it.

I wonder though, is a station automatically assigned to a fleet when you click "move to system" or do you order a station to make a portal to where the fleet is?

Maybe, if there's a priority queued transfers, that should take up 2/3 of the stations, or some number of the total, which can be changed in settings because rallies are important too, otherwise why were they set up in the first place. Otherwise, with no rallies 100% of priority takes 100% of priority, i would think. Otherwise, with no queued stuff, rallies would take 100% of the stations, I would think. This is just my opinion. But, we'll see what the DD says. I hope the implementation given the interface is something great to deal with and not a hassle.

But, then again, there may be situations, where there is urgent priority, and having a temperary interrupt for the automatic rallies would be called for. I can see a player, solely using it that way too, like it was said, otherwise why would it have been ordered? Then, after the interrupted transfer, all rallies would continue as normal.

 

[chopak]

Or maybe, we would be able to set up "fleet priorities" on our own?
The more answers we get, the more questions arise.

 

[MarteVermelho]

Regarding hyper lanes the possibility to fast travel inside gravity well's will be a massive tactical advantage. As most direct confrontation will happen close to planets and other strategic positions. I assume the mobility issues should be compensated by overwhelming numbers. No need to worry with a fleet jumping behind you if you have cheap reserves to throw at them.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Regarding hyper lanes the possibility to fast travel inside gravity well's will be a massive tactical advantage. As most direct confrontation will happen close to planets and other strategic positions. I assume the mobility issues should be compensated by overwhelming numbers. No need to worry with a fleet jumping behind you if you have cheap reserves to throw at them.

Hyperlanes, although cheaper than warp allowing more cheap war ships later on, can't be matched in phase one (which is direct, point to point exploration in the early game, and then colonization).

Warp has the advantage of flexibility. The in between points which might be used for attack, defense, or ambushing the choke points, you just don't know. If played effectively, hyperlanes may need convoys before traveling.

Late in the game, wormholes are the cheapest, after all the stations are in place, and ship massing takes place. This is because engines during the massing phase keep on being built, while stations are in place. They have been referred to as "tall"

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Would you spend more researching Physics? (presumably this is travel related).
As 1st choices: And get Warp speed? Hyperlane cooldown? Wormhole Range?
As 2nd choices: And get Warp cooldown? Hyperlane speed? Wormhole Cooldown?
As NULL choices: Warp range? Hyperlane range? Wormhole speed?

-----------

Hypothetically (for Illustration purposes only):
Arbitrarily: starting with Warp factor 1, w/ a cooldown of 0.33 per jump.
Arbitrarily: starting with Hyperplane speed 3, w/ a cooldown of 3 per path.
Arbitrarily: starting with Wormhole speed of infinite, w/ a cooldown of 4 per use.

3 parsecs away.
Warp.
time = (1+0.33) + (1+0.33) +(1+0.33). [3 jumps] Assuming, warp 1 takes 1 time unit to travel 1 parsec, then a strain on the engine of 0.33.
Total time = 4.
Hyperlane.
time = 1 connected path. 3 wait at choke point +1 jump.
Total time = 4.
Wormhole.
time = wait 4 at the station, you're there.
Total time = 4.

After a 'doubling of weakness' upgrade. Warp 2. cooldown 1.5 per path. cooldown 2.5 per use. (had to fudge the wormhole number, but in reality range might be an extra priority leveling this out)
Warp.
time = (0.5+0.33) + (0.5+0.33) + (0.5 + 0.33)
Total time = 2.5
Hyperlane.
time = 1 connected path. 1.5 wait + 1 jump.
Total time = 2.5
Wormhole.
time = 2.5, you're there.
Total time = 2.5 (probably longer time, if range is researched, probably shorter time if range isn't researched, but this could be an average number).

 

[*Aqua*]

Late in the game, wormholes are the cheapest, after all the stations are in place, and ship massing takes place. This is because engines during the massing phase keep on being built, while stations are in place. They have been referred to as "tall"

There could be an upkeep cost for the station (see EUIV forts).

Also, where did you get all the calculation formula from? I'm sure no dev said yet how it's exactly going to work.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Also, where did you get all the calculation formula from? I'm sure no dev said yet how it's exactly going to work.

It's speculation, for illustration purposes only (nothing exact), as I try to understand it, generally. Wouldn't it work something like that?

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

There could be an upkeep cost for the station (see EUIV forts).

You're right! There's no information about the upkeep of stations. It could be like a fort. But, if there's no advantage early, because of station costs, middle because of the need for more hub costs, and late because of upkeep. When would it be rationally justified as fair cost transportation? Engines vs. Wormholes. How would you strike a balance, unless there was an "equal point" in the game to average out all costs?

Thinking about it.... if there was a free startup cost, there would have to be an upkeep. If the character of the game is to give wormhole users a medium cost, when warp = hyperlane , at time x, given warp's early game advantage, and hyperlanes massing advantage. The average engine cost at that average point, would probably be equal to the average station cost, when they decide to beta test it and balance.

Thinking about it.... the real stuff to consider, after balanced in cost, may be the trade off between, the extra space on board the wormhole ships for stuff (advantage) and the extra defense built at the vulnerable wormhole stations (detriment). the trade off between a surprise attack, and being cut-off. That's it; otherwise, it's just fleet transportation, where longer distances within the limited range have the same travel time compared to shorter distances within the limited range.

 

[Just a Joke]

there is always the risk of something, or someone, noticing...

Sounds like Shivan in Freespace. Anyway, we will do much better than GTA or GTVA.

 

[*Aqua*]

It's speculation, for illustration purposes only (nothing exact), as I try to understand it, generally. Wouldn't it work something like that?

IMHO it's useless to discuss things we only know the outlines of. It could work completely different compared to what you have in mind. For example you didn't include how supply could work. This can have a huge impact on the operation range. We don't even know if there'll something like that.
It could also be that the player will have access to all three FTL techs late in the game which makes half of the discussion in this thread unnecessary. We just don't know.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

IMHO it's useless to discuss things we only know the outlines of. It could work completely different compared to what you have in mind. For example you didn't include how supply could work. This can have a huge impact on the operation range. We don't even know if there'll something like that.
It could also be that the player will have access to all three FTL techs late in the game which makes half of the discussion in this thread unnecessary. We just don't know.

Here's, in part where I am coming from. Besides, learning from misconceptions through discussion.... (which i have)

in chess, it's a good idea to see what moves could be played by the otherside during their turn, even though it's not our move yet. Yes, speculation is often wrong, but sometimes it's not, and when it's right, that gives you an advantage, ie. More time on the clock to look at your serious move considerations, in gameplay!

I feel I wasn't wasting my time, as others may raise their hand, asking the same thing, or brainstorming something entirely different. And, furthermore, i have been on topic. Is warp, hyperlanes, and wormhole use simple to you?

 

[Demarque]

I have been thinking about an interesting way of interstellar travel inspired by Dune, of which I'm certain that won't be present on Stellaris, but I want to expose my thoughts about it and see what you guys think.

Well, in Dune, you have those huge ships, the heighliners, which were basically carriers used to transport people and other stuff. They didn't really move, instead they "folded" space so to travel the vast distances of space.

So I have been thinking of a scenario where those gigantic ships are the only viable method of faster than light travel. Essentially, all smaller ships (from personal transports to cruisers), that are incapable of FTL travel themselves, dock in those carriers, and use them to transport to other star systems.

But then you must be wondering, "but why not just install a warp drive inside those smaller ships and be done with it?". Well, that's because that wouldn't be economically viable. In this scenario, FTL travel is extremely expensive, for reasons that I still haven't decided (perhaps the fuel, antimatter, is too expensive?), so it makes more sense to have a single huge carrier ship with a single extremely expensive warp drive than a fleet of multiple smaller ships, each with their own expensive warp drive. For example, let's imagine you're a trader, and you have a small or medium or even large ship. Your business depends on selling your goods for a price higher than the money you spent on getting those goods to their consumers, so that you can have a profit. But having your ship with a warp drive is expensive, and your cargo bay can only carry a limited amount of stuff, so you would waste much more money on the travel than you would get in return for selling your goods. And you don't want that.

BUT, nearby you is a massive heighliner that offers transport to your destination for a much more acceptable price, a condition that would make your trade profitable. And the company that controls the heighliner can afford keeping it and its FTL fuel, because they can carry a sickly huge amount of cargo/people/docked ships, each of those paying a good price for the journey, so that it actually makes up for the expenses of FTL travel for the company operating the heighliner, to the point where they too can turn a profit, making it economically viable.

As the heighliner arrives at its destination (a star system), the ships docked in it now undock and use conventional engines to go to their own destinations (planets within that star system), since they are close to it.

Of course, all of this depends on the technical details of FTL travel. If there is a cheap method of quick interstellar travel, this scenario wouldn't exist. But since we know nothing about it, we can speculate and create those situations that could make up some good stories. And kudos if you read all of this.

 

[*Aqua*]

@((1+SQRT(5)))/2
I avoid to speculate on matters where there's not enough information. I tend to view stuff from a scientific viewpoint, that means I put emphasis on what is known and base my thoughts onto it.

Chess isn't a good analogy. In chess you always know the whole situation, there are no hidden tiles or pieces. About Stellaris we know almost nothing.

IMO there's no need to discuss about travel in detail atm. All the tactics, strategies, etc. you imagine will become obsolete as soon as the devs tell us more about the game. And you'll be disappointed because the game mechanics probably won't work the way you imagined.
For example the wormhole hub:
- Is it advantageous to have one?
- Is it better to have more than one?
- How far should they be apart?
- Is there any kind of penalty in having one?
- Is there a penalty to have multiple hubs in your empire?
- How do wormholes compare to hyperlanes and warp in 'everyday use'? During wartimes?
- What else is there concerning wormholes we don't know of yet?
etc.

Like you can see we lack a lot of information. I don't even know where to start.

 

[Sakul A.]

You misunderstood that speculating about those things give the devs important feedback.
Maybe there was no thinking about the possibility to combine two different FTL-methods. Know the devs read this and rethink the balance.
This speculation thing is important for the game.