Hey all!

Today’s topic will further explore the subjects of fleet movement, FTL-travel and the general wonders one might happen upon when ripping holes through subspace. As the writing of this is a bit sudden the dev diary came out late today, our apologies!
The galaxy is a pretty huge place and to get anywhere in a timely manner you’ll want to travel faster than the speed of light, or use FTL-travel for short. Stellaris will have three methods of FTL that players can use; Warp, Hyperlanes and Wormholes. They all have distinct advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the strategic movement of ships and fleets causing expansion paths, diplomacy and wars to be quite different depending on the method used.

Warp
Warp requires each ship in the fleet to be equipped with a Warp Drive. These are quite costly to build and cause a major drain on each ship’s available power, but allows unconstrained travel to any system within range. When travelling to a system outside the range of a single warp-jump, the fleet has to make a sequence of jumps through a number of systems. Any jump puts a considerable strain on a ship’s Warp Drive, causing the fleet to not be able to jump again for a short while after arrival. While this can be reduced by more advanced technology, it does remain a weak point throughout the game for any species using this method.
Fleets using Warp Drives to travel will need to do so at the edge of a system to lessen the gravitational pull of the local star. This in combination with the fact that warp-jumps have the slowest FTL-speed of the three methods means that the arrival point of an incoming warp-fleet can be identified, and possibly ambushed. The cost of freedom is potentially high!

Wormhole
Some species have decided to sidestep this whole business of blasting through the void at ludicrous speed. They prefer to open up a temporary wormhole that a fleet may use to instantly travel to a distant system. These wormholes can only be generated by a Wormhole Station, a type of space station that can only be constructed on the outer edge of a system. Any fleet wanting to travel will have to use the Wormhole Station as a connecting point, passing through it whenever they leave the system. The station may only generate a single wormhole at a time, forcing all ships and fleets to wait while one is being prepared. The larger the fleet, the longer it takes for the Wormhole Station to be ready. The wormhole generated does allow two-way travel, but will collapse almost instantly after sending a fleet through.
Constructing and maintaining an efficient network of Wormhole Stations is vital to any species using wormholes, as it will allow sending huge fleets from one part of the galaxy to another in very short time. It also allows striking deep inside enemy territory with little warning. This great strength can also be a great weakness, as fleets are left with no means of further offense or retreat should the network be disabled through covert attacks by enemy strike-fleets.

Hyperdrive
The galaxy in Stellaris has a hidden network of hyperlanes connecting the systems, only visible for those who know where to look. Ships that are equipped with a Hyperdrive can access these lanes and use them to traverse the galaxy at incredible speed. They are however bound by the preexisting network, and has to path through each system connecting their current location and target. Galactic voids lacking systems are in effect huge movement-blockers for any species using hyperlanes, having few systems allowing possible crossings. An enemy could potentially fortify these vital systems should they become aware of their existence, creating strategic choke-points. As the hyperlanes exist in subspace, fleets may access them from anywhere within a system and does not have to travel from the gravitational edge as Warp Drives and Wormhole Stations do. As such, catching a fleet using hyperlanes can be tricky. Correctly identifying the paths to intercept and interrupt their somewhat long charge-up is probably your best bet.

All methods of FTL-travel can be improved by researching more advanced technologies. While their exact effects differ some they all improve the speed, range, efficiency or cooldown of FTL-travel. However, being able to casually bend time and space with increased power does not necessarily mean using it with more responsibility. As additional species bend the laws of physics to send larger and larger fleets through the galaxy, there is always the risk of something, or someone, noticing...

Next week we’ll talk more about the different species in the galaxy. Look forward to it!

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

- Is it advantageous to have one?
- Is it better to have more than one?
- How far should they be apart?
- Is there any kind of penalty in having one?
- Is there a penalty to have multiple hubs in your empire?
- How do wormholes compare to hyperlanes and warp in 'everyday use'? During wartimes?
- What else is there concerning wormholes we don't know of yet?

1) Yes, especially in large empires because of their limited range. Also, hubs by definition get you there faster through multiple use.
2) Each Hub will be within the limited range of the one before. Your question is how much overlap redundancy. In my imagination, the overlap would be from up to 6-8 different directions, and just barely over the central hub, although a North South East West would be much simplier. 6 is the most optimal, but a couple more may be needed because of the equilateral triangular grid, which each circle can be approximated by, but there would have to be a system there. However, as the range research grows, so does the ability to make them further apart. Also, hubs at the very edge would be useful for scouting/attacking.
3) Perhaps, upkeep? But, only if there is an upkeep.
4) Cost of the hubs. The more hubs, the more costly.
5) Good question. Using a hyperlane to get to where the action is VS. jumping to a hub (and then hub to if hubs...) to the destination. I magine rally points would be important in both cases.
6) I don't know what I don't know.

 

[*Aqua*]

You misunderstood that speculating about those things give the devs important feedback.
Maybe there was no thinking about the possibility to combine two different FTL-methods. Know the devs read this and rethink the balance.
This speculation thing is important for the game.

In software development usually everything is described in the game design paper. This is the first thing they do before writing any line of code. The game design paper describes every aspect of the game (what are the game mechanics, art, UI, etc.) and is the bible for the devs until they finished producing the game. They'll stick to every word in it until it is proven it can't work like that. Then iterations start to improve that feature.
We can't but in a lot at that point because we don't know the game design paper. We don't know what influence a change would cause on the rest of the game.
Also afaik Paradox is pretty far in completing the game (they said they can already play multiplayer -> most game mechanics are already implemented and working). If they change something essential like travel this could lead to months of additional development. Which is expensive.

I don't know if the devs are taking notes on user comments but if they do we'll probably see the results only in the first patches or DLCs.


@((1+SQRT(5)))/2
That's what you imagine, not necessary how it's going to be.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

"That's what you imagine, not necessary how it's going to be"

Very true. In fact, I was reading Dev Diary 7 today. Science vessels sound like they might replace scouts. Therefore, scouting may be irrelevant in this Dev Diary.

 

[Velorian]

In software development usually everything is described in the game design paper. This is the first thing they do before writing any line of code. The game design paper describes every aspect of the game (what are the game mechanics, art, UI, etc.) and is the bible for the devs until they finished producing the game. They'll stick to every word in it until it is proven it can't work like that. Then iterations start to improve that feature.
We can't but in a lot at that point because we don't know the game design paper. We don't know what influence a change would cause on the rest of the game.
Also afaik Paradox is pretty far in completing the game (they said they can already play multiplayer -> most game mechanics are already implemented and working). If they change something essential like travel this could lead to months of additional development. Which is expensive.

I think you are right, and few suggestions to mechanics would get heeded as they've already discussed it at length internally and deviating from the plan is difficult. Most software companies (well so I was told at Computer Science, at least) do have features that's been placed in a "maybe" pile, and as they program the main functions they might discover something is missing from the "bible" and it gets added to the "to-do" pile.

If it's decided to deviate then they need to plan and think and possibly change other things as well but it's certainly possible they might do it if one of the devs get a really good idea. Perhaps even an idea he read on the forum, even if most of it is useless speculation.

If it's just the balancing and not the core mechanics then that can change easily, and tiny mechanics changes might also fit that category, especially in an unfinished game.

Edit: Also we were taught there are several different ways to plan programs, with the classic oldschool way being "Top-Down Programming" where everything is thought out in advance, this works great for projects where there's little reason to think anything is gonna change.

We were primarily taught using a different design philosophy. I don't think Paradox adheres strongly to the Top-Down approach, it's too inflexible for making constant patches and dlc I think.

 

[Sakul A.]

The whole process of balancing need a lot of different testing and changing of attributes. This is what I was talking about.
The devs are working on this project for months maybe years and are focused on their design paper. This whole DD thing is on the one hand marketing, because they give out information to us. But on the other hand they get feedback from us. I expect all themes of the released dd to be nearly finished and only some balancing missing. Even if we don't know any numbers yet. While we speculate we give them feedback and they can react to it.
I don't think they change a whole system but they will fix on or tho attributes if someone here makes a good point.

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

I have been thinking about an interesting way of interstellar travel inspired by Dune, of which I'm certain that won't be present on Stellaris, but I want to expose my thoughts about it and see what you guys think.

Well, in Dune, you have those huge ships, the heighliners, which were basically carriers used to transport people and other stuff. They didn't really move, instead they "folded" space so to travel the vast distances of space.

So I have been thinking of a scenario where those gigantic ships are the only viable method of faster than light travel. Essentially, all smaller ships (from personal transports to cruisers), that are incapable of FTL travel themselves, dock in those carriers, and use them to transport to other star systems.

But then you must be wondering, "but why not just install a warp drive inside those smaller ships and be done with it?". Well, that's because that wouldn't be economically viable. In this scenario, FTL travel is extremely expensive, for reasons that I still haven't decided (perhaps the fuel, antimatter, is too expensive?), so it makes more sense to have a single huge carrier ship with a single extremely expensive warp drive than a fleet of multiple smaller ships, each with their own expensive warp drive. For example, let's imagine you're a trader, and you have a small or medium or even large ship. Your business depends on selling your goods for a price higher than the money you spent on getting those goods to their consumers, so that you can have a profit. But having your ship with a warp drive is expensive, and your cargo bay can only carry a limited amount of stuff, so you would waste much more money on the travel than you would get in return for selling your goods. And you don't want that.

BUT, nearby you is a massive heighliner that offers transport to your destination for a much more acceptable price, a condition that would make your trade profitable. And the company that controls the heighliner can afford keeping it and its FTL fuel, because they can carry a sickly huge amount of cargo/people/docked ships, each of those paying a good price for the journey, so that it actually makes up for the expenses of FTL travel for the company operating the heighliner, to the point where they too can turn a profit, making it economically viable.

As the heighliner arrives at its destination (a star system), the ships docked in it now undock and use conventional engines to go to their own destinations (planets within that star system), since they are close to it.

Of course, all of this depends on the technical details of FTL travel. If there is a cheap method of quick interstellar travel, this scenario wouldn't exist. But since we know nothing about it, we can speculate and create those situations that could make up some good stories. And kudos if you read all of this.

The first method where gigantic ships carry smaller ships, that's like using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airmail to go to a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_truck
The second method with warp, although it's independent for a trader, is expensive to the trader and is more like the future of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Prime_Air
The third method, at a more acceptable price, is perhaps like what was used from 1890 to 1960 in mail transportation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Mail_Service

Edit: Special cases for the above....

Airports (wormhole station) can be destroyed, leaving your Mail Trucks (Fleet) behind without an Airplane (explains the instantaneous travel) for the Airmail (Explains the cut-off minus for Mail Trucks). There are Airport security delays flights. (Explains the long wait). Airplanes can surprise. (Explains the Gotcha element). Airplanes get an uninterrupted landing and take off and can take off and land anywhere within range of an edge of the system. (Explains each end of the wormhole).

Warp air drones have engine strain issues, making them slower, but they can go when they're ready and to wherever. (Explains the costly warp drive engine, and unconstrained freedom).

Railways can't be destroyed because they are hidden in subspace, and are "free to use". (Explains the already set up paths and why they are cheaper). Trains, once they get going were fast for their day. (Explains their speed, but had to wait for the 'All Aboard?') Railway stations make great "choke points" (Explains their value at certain places).

Q: Does this "help" you for your Dune campaign MOD?

 

[((1+SQRT(5)))/2]

Hmmm..... looking at it in this NEW light.

Which way in Stellaris should I "Go Postal?" Does anyone want to create it, just for MOD fun, for me??? PWEEEAAAASSSSEEE! ;-)

Even though Railway Mail Service was a thing of the past, Their "Bonus" in cost, FREE RAILWAYS far exceeds that of Airmail/Mail Trucks and Amazon Prime Air.
However, Airmail/Mail Trucks do have bonuses compared to Amazon Prime Air which don't have any, but seems risky compared to Railways because Airports can be destroyed!
But, even still, the future of Amazon Prime Air Awaits us, although no bonuses per say, it is the thing of the Future for the way of delivering!

HMMM.....

 

[Chief of Staff]

I am aware this is belated but it occurred to me that you don't always need to use FTL for travel, especially if you are traveling from one planet to another in same system and especially since FTL uses fuel which can be a finite resource. That being said, are we going to have non-FTL engines as a supplement for use like impulse engine depicted in Star Trek? I imagine other sci-fi franchise also depicted non-FTL engines as a supplement on their ships.

 

[aitaituo]

I am aware this is belated but it occurred to me that you don't always need to use FTL for travel, especially if you are traveling from one planet to another in same system and especially since FTL uses fuel which can be a finite resource. That being said, are we going to have non-FTL engines as a supplement for use like impulse engine depicted in Star Trek? I imagine other sci-fi franchise also depicted non-FTL engines as a supplement on their ships.

I am assuming so, since warp and wormholes require ships to be at the edge of a system.

 

[Safehold]

I am aware this is belated but it occurred to me that you don't always need to use FTL for travel, especially if you are traveling from one planet to another in same system and especially since FTL uses fuel which can be a finite resource. That being said, are we going to have non-FTL engines as a supplement for use like impulse engine depicted in Star Trek? I imagine other sci-fi franchise also depicted non-FTL engines as a supplement on their ships.

There was some talk about there being sections, like Sword of Stars 1 ship design, for Stellaris ship building. So you would probably have a sub light drive system, that is probably research connected. The solar system map also has those green arrows pointing to different star systems. Reminds me of the real time battles in Sots1, they had the same things for the ftl hyperdrives. In Sword of the stars 1, you had to physically move your ship to that green arrow on the outside of the system, before you could power up your FTL drive. One of the FTL drives that is.

 

[Chief of Staff]

I am assuming so, since warp and wormholes require ships to be at the edge of a system.

There was some talk about there being sections, like Sword of Stars 1 ship design, for Stellaris ship building. So you would probably have a sub light drive system, that is probably research connected. The solar system map also has those green arrows pointing to different star systems. Reminds me of the real time battles in Sots1, they had the same things for the ftl hyperdrives. In Sword of the stars 1, you had to physically move your ship to that green arrow on the outside of the system, before you could power up your FTL drive. One of the FTL drives that is.

Nice! At least you won't have to waste fuel used for FTL when traversing inside the systems. If I understood the dev diary, the fuel for FTL, at least for warp drive, are finite resource.

 

[Safehold]

Nice! At least you won't have to waste fuel used for FTL when traversing inside the systems. If I understood the dev diary, the fuel for FTL, at least for warp drive, are finite resource.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-and-no-fighters.888217/page-14#post-20277112

There's some talk there about drive systems that people here might be interested in. A neat tie in. Be sure to scroll up a few comments to get the context if needed.

Fuel wasn't mention the 4th dev diary though. Only power generation and regen/cool downs. Fuel is normally used to constrain the logistics of movement, but in this case, the actual FTL system would do the constraining.

The tactical advantages of being able to hyperlane from anywhere in the solar map, vs its long charge up, or the warp drive's freedom vs its slowness, can become interesting gameplay. There might be another logistical constraint that isn't fuel, however, but that wasn't mentioned.

 

[xarastier]

It appears that the three types of the FTL methods requires huge populations with mega-industrial complexes to manufacture & maintain within economies of massive scale and the history of its own and peculiar civilization which would actually define & represent the origin, character, culture & type of organism or being that endeavors in FTL technology in the belief that time & space actually exist. Hence the diversity of appearances whether clothed or naked. Will the devs of Stellaris consider an origin of species, character, culture, organisms or beings in objective existence that creates it's own reality in the absence of time & space thereby representing an alternative dimension or universe of illusion wherein everything is one. Where time, space, motion, change, coincidence and choice are creations of conflicting self interest amongst a confluence of thought, and distance is not separate.

 

[CptWilly]

You may have to wait for the "My God, it's full of stars!" DLC, which will let you spend the back half of the game in a white hotel room while your form is evolved in to a giant space child whose very thoughts are interconnected with space and time.

 

[Safehold]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model

http://home.cern/topics/higgs-boson

wikipedia EM drive

 

[Scutatus]

I have a big smile on my face. I love that paradox have essentially included all three methods of ftl travel in sci-fi films/shows. In one swoop they have given a nod to everyone! lol

 

[aitaituo]

I have a big smile on my face. I love that paradox have essentially included all three methods of ftl travel in sci-fi films/shows. In one swoop they have given a nod to everyone! lol

They are missing the jump-style FTL used most famously in BSG.

 

[chopak]

Difference between jump drive and warpdrive is really subtle and from game ersective it reduces to time spent "in the warp". In other words, warp drive advanced enough is undistinguishable from jump drive.

 

[aitaituo]

Difference between jump drive and warpdrive is really subtle and from game ersective it reduces to time spent "in the warp". In other words, warp drive advanced enough is undistinguishable from jump drive.

I'm in a quibbling mood. Jump drives are more like portable wormhole generators than warp engines. There is a charging time and a post-jump downtime and travel is nearly instantaneous from start to destination.

 

[Scutatus]

They are missing the jump-style FTL used most famously in BSG.

Nitpicker

(I had actually forgotten that. The revamped Star Trek Warp Drive seems much like that now too. I try to forget. )