Stellaris Dev Diary #40 - Heinlein Patch (part 1)

[Agamemnic]

Fanatic Pacifist. That is all.

 

[Metaluser]

Its not rushing that ruins multiplayer. Its the fact that if you dont rush you will get owned by the player that gets tachyon first.
Right now you just dont suffer at all from being in a war against a weaker empire. As I stated in one of my comments.
If you have the bigger fleet you win the fight with almost no losses. That means you can just steamroll after u killed the first empire.

 

[SiNNiS]

I gotta be blunt here... This sounds less like a balance issue than it sounds like a 'You're playing a grand strategy game with an RTS mindset' issue. Stellaris isn't Sins of a Solar Empire or Starcraft. If you and the people you're playing with only care about 'winning' ASAP, rather than having a nice game of empire building, political intrigue and essentially telling a story together, you may not be playing the ideal game for your preferred play style.

I'm not saying you're 'playing the game wrong', but if you're doing things like rushing and trying to knock other players out of the game as quickly as possible, you're pretty much ignoring half the things that sets Grand Strategy (and 4X) games apart from regular RTS games.

I understand what you are saying but this is playing a 4x with a competitive mindset that also happens to have only one victory condition, such fundamentals shouldn't have us draw imaginary rules or strictly RP and hope that randoms in a pug follow them(i.e I can prohibit myself from rushing others but what about the other randoms on the other side of the galaxy?). That limits me to only playing with friends in a game capable of having 32 players in a lobby. It also gives new players in random lobbies a negative outlook on MP perhaps never even coming back. A 4x grand strategy should also have grand-scale wars rather than one battle deciding the outcome.

I hate to reference another game but lets take Civilization V as an example(another beloved 4x), it is nearly impossible to warrior rush players. Archer rushes are difficult to pull off and even if executed in a victory you are bound to be somewhat behind other players on simcity. The reason for this is cities are inherently difficult to take and losses on both offensive and defensive fronts is bound to happen, this is true for any war in any part of the timeline providing there are no significant tech advantages. In addition to this there is an opportunity cost to building military units which is not the case for Stellaris as it has its own build queue.

If planets were inherently difficult to take or more importantly starports difficult to take down without taking significant losses it would allow defensive players to hold ground as well as create epic back and forth battles. Offensive players would have to evaluate if they have the resources to expend on such a war that would economically put them behind players at peace. Currently the same fleet as you previously mentioned can roll the whole galaxy by 2215 and the game over by 2230.

Even if corvette rushes are banned that still does not change the fact that entire wars can be won with one battle.

 

[Mr.Universe]

Loved the new patch A great game getting greater all the time

Seeing the different forums i gathered some ideas, some just came to me when playing and others are from different people, you might want to think about i will give some examples below.

. The ship designer is great and i know it takes a lot of hard work to create new models for ships, coloring and patterns would be an easier solution . Because in the late game you start seeing the same ships everywhere . This doesn't impact on the new ship models to come.

. Give life to the universe, civilian ships traveling especially in crowded systems .

. This idea came actually from you guys , since i saw the infested mammalian portrait i expected to see specific to race traits exp.
Fungoid being able to infest planets, pops and leaders . So you can have an empire made of hundred different phenotypes. ( also the ability to capture enemy ships that can come in different forms). Also government types exp. Hive mind. Also organic grown ships

.Another interesting idea that came actually from your new patch would be to add the science and construction modules to bigger ships ( lore-wise especially if they have to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other ).

.Colonizing asteroids with all the plus and minuses that come from that.

.Drones, long range scout drones or science drones or even building and combat drones and repair drones so many choices here . Also drone swarms for fighters module.

.Cloning leaders and pops since you already have a cloning tree. EDIT: Pops using a similar method to the droid building , and for leaders i guess a favorites tag and then in the recruit tab you will have the option but it will require science instead.

.Bioweapons that could do specific things from annihilating a planet to just make pops unhappy or even crazy. Also this can come with its own end game scenario if you create a virus for example that spreads from planet to planet.

. Here we go Stealth modules for ships for scouting or infiltrating other planets .

. Late game multiple ftl methods (one per ship and same for fleet, cant merge if they have different )

. I would like to see your take on an android/robotic race

. Inhibitors for ftl drives because the swarm builder ships are annoying when they build outpost in every planet you own unimpeded , at least they will have to go from planet to planet also give them less transport ship because now they can build a ridiculous amount and the notifications on the top of the screen are popping like crazy.

. Ships in fleets break formation and they spas out basically its a mess . Also multiple fleets coordination .

. The ability for ships ( i guess on the computer module) to always stay at weapons range.

. More expanded genetic manipulation exp. add bad traits and remove good traits. Also the ability to modify the race at any time after you've got the technology , you will still have the same amount of points for trade-off but you would be able to do it anytime and not only when you get an extra points.

. Edicts to manipulate the mind of the pops basically to combat ethics divergence or to change their ideology to the new policies ( slow with high cost but after it finishes it will be permanent unless its redone it can have a cool-down and then started again later.

. Something silly , terraforming a planet for decades to make it more resource rich, also all suns should give energy credits in greater amounts

.End Game ring world building that takes hundreds of years

I gathered the most interesting ideas here some are possible and some others need a lot of work but i just wanted to list them More will come in a later time

A big thanks to the devs for the great work in expanding the universe of Stellaris , And the all growing community that helps in its expansion, its a big universe out there

 

[Cassilda]

It's possible to have also a better integration of stone age natives? Pre-sentient can be uplifted, bronze age or more developed civilization can be conquered or integrated, but stone age natives can only be enslaved if xenophobe, non xenophobe cannot integrate them as free citizens, even if your policies allows interaction with primitive aliens.

And please, add some automation to troop transport disembark on peace time (or, at least, soldiers healing when aboard transports).

 

[Mr.Universe]

Yeah that sounds like a good idea , also direct enslavement of those natives from races that have those policies.

 

[Mr.Universe]

Also something i forgot in my previous post , border friction should diminish after allied ( love your neighbors ) And the ai should be more willing with trade deals exp. research agreements etc again especially after allied. Because as i play i see they are too unwilling to trade anything

 

[Duke of Nukem]

Defensive pacts should auto-generate sensor links, it's ridiculous that I have to pay for sensor links to help fight a defensive war.

 

[Mr.Universe]

Defensive pacts should auto-generate sensor links, it's ridiculous that I have to pay for sensor links to help fight a defensive war.

That is true , also you should get some bonus for defending their territory , and by that i mean participating in battles in their territory .

 

[stumason]

Does uplifting still changes the portrait of the uplifted race randomly? If so can we please be able to choose it ourselves?
Will it be able to rename subspecies which were created via genetic modification?

Sorry if the ideas are outdated. I paused playing for over six weeks.

Ah, that would be awesome - naming species and sub-species.

And while we're on the topic of names, can we please rename armies? It's only a small thing but it would be quite cool if we could - I just like the idea of having armies raised on a planet, named after that world, then following them across the Galaxy as they spread my empire.

 

[Mr.Universe]

Ah, that would be awesome - naming species and sub-species.

And while we're on the topic of names, can we please rename armies? It's only a small thing but it would be quite cool if we could - I just like the idea of having armies raised on a planet, named after that world, then following them across the Galaxy as they spread my empire.

Have you tried renaming the transport ships? that should rename the armies i haven't tried yet

 

[stumason]

Have you tried renaming the transport ships? that should rename the armies i haven't tried yet

Hmm... never thought of that! I shall give it a whir..

EDIT: Nope, doesn't work

 

[Mr.Universe]

Hmm... never thought of that! I shall give it a whir..

EDIT: Nope, doesn't work

Too bad
One more thing added to our wishlist then

 

[Robrecht]

If planets were inherently difficult to take or more importantly starports difficult to take down without taking significant losses it would allow defensive players to hold ground as well as create epic back and forth battles. Offensive players would have to evaluate if they have the resources to expend on such a war that would economically put them behind players at peace. Currently the same fleet as you previously mentioned can roll the whole galaxy by 2215 and the game over by 2230.

Even if corvette rushes are banned that still does not change the fact that entire wars can be won with one battle.

At the same time, though, if planets/starports were significantly stronger and more difficult to take, people with the 'competitive' mindset would just rush something else and then you or someone else would be on here again two months later asking for starports to be nerfed, because they make aggressive colonization too strong or they make it too hard for players who don't focus on Research above all else to stop Research focused species/empires from simply turtling and teching up to the point where they can steamroll everyone else. (This is what happened in Civ V, by the way. Siege weapons were nerfed because they made it too easy to just rush them and take your enemy's cities out in the early game and as a result aggressive settling became the new cheap tactic dujour.)

Or someone with a 'competitive mindset' will be on here to complain that multiplayer games take far too long to complete now.

As long as the people with that 'competitive mindset' are in the majority, there will ways be one 'optimal strategy' or another that makes someone guaranteed to win very early in the game, with various balancing measures only changing how long it takes them to actually get the victory screen.

 

[SiNNiS]

This is the main issue, there is currently no decision making to be had. Literally start spamming corvettes and kill the neighbor , there is absolutely no response to this other then build corvettes from the start as well without any intelligence and if I don't get rushed might as well use my already built fleet on someone else.

If I am forced to colonize , simcity and techup to something particular to kill someone i.e 2220 , 2230 we have successfully changed the game to allow players have a longer timeline with the ability to make decisions and implement strategies in that time frame.

In the case of Civ 5 atleast aggressive expansion does not eliminate a player within 10-15 minutes of the game starting, sure maybe I can rush tech to something particular like crossbows , camel archers or artillery to execute a timed attack that is fair game, because my opponent still has means and more importantly time to efficiently scout,evaluate and counter. This is apparent in Civ 5 MP games were it ultimately comes down to the player that can execute timed attacks and simcity effectively to win FFA games on a consistent basis.

As long as the people with that 'competitive mindset' are in the majority, there will ways be one 'optimal strategy' or another that makes someone guaranteed to win very early in the game, with various balancing measures only changing how long it takes them to actually get the victory screen.

This is the point I am trying to get at, balancing the game in a form of delaying how long it takes to get to the victory screen automatically introduces the more complex mechanics and systems that are in this game. Hence effectively allowing us to interact more with the 4x/grand strategy elements of Stellaris. That is a positive change rather than leave it as it is because 'competitive players' shouldn't play this game competitively and should RP more.

 

[Blase19]

Hi guys!

I am writing this here, beacuse I hope the issue wil be taken care of by the devs in the Heinlein patch. I am relatively new to this game, so i don't know if anyone else has already reported this, or i might be mistaken, but I did encounter a problem while fighting against the prethoryn swarm. My point defense and flak batteries only shoot the swarm's aircraft first, and they only start shooting the incoming scourge missiles when all the aircrafts have been dealt with. I know it sound stupid, but i checked it multiple times. When the battle begins, all the enemy aircraft fly out, but some of them go sideways, therefor killing them takes a long time. During that time all the missiles hit. I swear i watched like 20 battles in slow motion. When engagement happens after warping in, and my aircrafts have a chance to shoot down all the alien aircraft before they go furhter away, point defense works perfectly. Sorry for my long monologue, again I may not be right, but I hope the devs will take a look at this, and might notice something that could case this bug. Thank you in advance! Really good game!

 

[Kenshi]

More Victory conditions that allows you to win a game peacefully or at least in other way than just conquering would make the game far more interesting.

I know many ppl suggested it, i just felt like that would fit in here now that we talk about competition.

 

[Trutty]

It's already been mentioned, but I would love to be able to set custom dialogue for player created empires/ have more control over their behavior in general. It'd really help with the immersion and roleplay that makes this game so fun.

 

[Duke of Nukem]

It's already been mentioned, but I would love to be able to set custom dialogue for player created empires/ have more control over their behavior in general. It'd really help with the immersion and roleplay that makes this game so fun.

I want to see more prominent species rivalries/loyalties. Pacifists should always stick together, dogs and cats shouldn't get along, dogs and birds should tend to ally against cats and foxes. There should also be a small positive modifier for similar species, unless there's another reason for rivalry I would like to see the insect swarms prefer to invade non-insects etc.

If pacifists were to gravitate together and make alliances/federations more easily that would help in balancing out the pacifist ethos, declaring war on a pacifist would become a "world war" and since their fleets haven't been out pillaging they are at 100% and ready to defend.

 

[Lichslayer]

This is the point I am trying to get at, balancing the game in a form of delaying how long it takes to get to the victory screen automatically introduces the more complex mechanics and systems that are in this game. Hence effectively allowing us to interact more with the 4x/grand strategy elements of Stellaris. That is a positive change rather than leave it as it is because 'competitive players' shouldn't play this game competitively and should RP more.

Totally agree, in most "public" multiplayer games grand strategy elements barely come into play, because the transition from 4x to Grand Strategy genre kicks in too late, one of the reasons being "The Mighty Rush".

And let's not forget, that Stellaris has always been designed and advertised as a 4x-Grand Strategy hybrid, with Grand Strategy kicking in in the mid to late game. In it's current state however, it barely ever gets there, except maybe for roleplayers. And that is a pity, because i would enjoy those Grand Strategy mechanics.

Currently sadly the state of the galaxy is decided too early and any changes, that push this moment to the mid or late game seem to be a good idea to me.

As @Robrecht said, balance changes like this could make aggresive colonization the next "OP thing", but let us compare the situations:

A) Corvette Rush aka current "Meta":
You mindlessly spam corvettes.
You take a home-planet and eliminate a player. (If he was a newbie he is propably not gonna like it.)
Rinse-repeat. (You are not going to like it either after 5 games)
Since there will be not so many empires in contact with you, chances of a punitive war or even an early defensive alliance against you are not that high. Chances for others to react against this are slim, unless they too are building corvettes to rush. You just continue to eat everyone around you, by the time enough people establish contact to see you becoming a threat, you can maybe even take on all of them. GG, boring as hell.

B) Aggresive colonisation aka possible "Meta"
You need to wisely scout and evaluate planet to colonize.
You need to beat your neighbours to the sweet spot.
You need to defend your colonized world in the vulnerable colonization phase, and only then it becomes your well defensible foothold.
If it comes to a first contact war it is not a war of annihilation but a war for the prime real estate. There is real decision making involved in deciding if you are going to antagonize your neigbours or if you are just going to take the second best planet to colonize. (remember now you cannot go full WAAAAGH on their xeno butts and take their capitols, you could end up in a war of attrition.)

Even if you do not exactly win the first round of colonization, you can try to grow far or you can build alliances and just rip that guy who took your stellar real estate in half.
And you can be pretty sure, that out there, in the dark space on the other side of the galaxy, is not a cancer in the form of a corvette rushing slavemonger, that will kill you and all your colonizing neighbours no matter what you do.

B is fun, B transitions in midgame into Grand Strategy, B creates interesting stories(EVEN if not roleplaying!), B makes players come back.

A is not fun, A transitions into "This Blob is too Big, GG, rehost", A creates tedium and frustration, A makes players leave the public MP community forever.