Stellaris Dev Diary #41 - Heinlein patch (part 2)

[Ornlu Wolfjarl]

Flak Cannons are M-only weapons right now, basically intended to be cruiser weapons.

We're reviewing defense stations and seeing how feasible it is to put X-large weapons on them.

I believe you need to make defense stations to be worth quite a lot combat-wise in order for players to start using them. As it stands, they are only a nuisance early game. If they have a whole bunch of weapons, but they are not healthy enough to withstand an enemy small fleet for at least a while, then they aren't worth it. Of course their health/defense should be affected by technologies and modules, but the player/AI should be able to decide how big of an investment they are willing to make and change their health/size/slots accordingly. So each race ends up using their own version of defense stations and philosophy on defending. Another requirement would be to give them the ability to act as the home dock of a small fleet. So you could assign a small fleet for their defense, which would potentially make them a desirable choice for a sturdy defense. You could also give them the ability to synergize with nearby defense stations (e.g. in orbit around the same planet), so they get a bonus to targeting and a boost to health. You could take these two ideas and add a lot more similar ideas and then give the player the choice of making multiple kinds of defense stations. You could even have the player pay a lot more to incorporate a defense platform in other kinds of stations (e.g. Outposts, Jump stations), which would of course make neighbors hate each other even more if such militarized stations exist in contested space.

Also a request for consideration:

I'd like it if you made building different designs of the same ship type (corvette, destroyer etc) a lot easier:

a) Give us a ship mass build order window, similar to the one in Distant Worlds: Universe.

b) Give a prefix for each ship design according to its ship type (e.g. Corvette = CRV, Destroyer = DES, Cruiser = CRS, Battleship = BTS, Carrier = CAR etc) that is assigned automatically to each design. Allow us to change these prefixes through name files or through race customization during game creation.

 

[Dalinski]

Add a Planetary Shield Generator building that gives nearby defensive platforms and the Star Base a massive increase in shields. The increase could be quite dramatic and have a high regeneration rate.

 

[PirateJack]

Add a Planetary Shield Generator building that gives nearby defensive platforms and the Star Base a massive increase in shields. The increase could be quite dramatic and have a high regeneration rate.

If you add that you have to add native species that can help the invaders to take down the Shield Generator and thus make the orbital platform vulnerable to the fleet in orbit. You could call them Skowe.

 

[Robrecht]

One thing I do seem to have noticed as a result of the ship specialization move:

I think Paradox and I have very different perceptions of what your starting weapon type selection means.

Because I think to the Devs, it just means 'that's the weapon type you start with'.
But to me, I'm choosing the weapons my species/nation prefers.

In the sense that if I choose Kinetics as my start weapon, to me that means that my dudes are all about Kinetic weapons and that's what they focus their research on and it's what they build their ships around. But the game already seems balanced around the idea that you'll be mixing and matching all types of weapons regardless of your starting type and the specialisations reinforce that.
Which I'm kinda sad about. I would prefer it if I could play an entire game with my species' starting type and have a viable load out on my ships from the early all the way to the late game.

 

[Mortheim]

Any chance we will get artifacts for characters/ships/planets? Cause it will be funny to get some really strong old laser on ship or gear for scientist <3

 

[Deronium]

One thing I do seem to have noticed as a result of the ship specialization move:

I think Paradox and I have very different perceptions of what your starting weapon type selection means.

Because I think to the Devs, it just means 'that's the weapon type you start with'.
But to me, I'm choosing the weapons my species/nation prefers.

I think no one tell you to mix weapons. use one if you want it. Yes it will be not so effective, but you still can use only one type.

 

[Dennis80]

Yes, it does need
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html


There's not enough space on your ship...


...and you can use that to cheat around your naval limit.

Yes, you are right, but we both are. Let me change the point of view :

On the one hand, my suggestions look like some kind of cheating, but it isnt. My intention is to open the limits of shipdesign within hard limits the game gives itself. The game gives you already the limitation of ressources, maintenance, buildtime and fleetsize. Sure, a corvette cant have the same space for things as battleships, but pushing it into templates isnt the best solution in my opinion.

I say, put things in slots until a absolutly maximum is reached. This maximum could be defined by tech-level and a strategic ressource ( OK, I read the article... ). But the scaling could be much softer. A deathstar is difficult, but sizes from corvette to cruiser doesnt affect mass and gravity too much.
The space you used defines the type/size of a ship, not the other way round.
So you can make your own constellation of ships and define what roles they should play in a battle. Doesnt matter if you have a very overwhelming overpowered death star, you must pay hardly for it and it takes years to build and you have no other fleet until the production finishes. Other like to build smaller, agile fleets and can attack you meanwhile, because they choose the moderate way. But take care, one time, the death star could be ready !

Space combat is not the same as naval combat, and the size of a ship, the silhouette doesnt matter. If you are in space with your laser gun, you can hit me from the farest distance, because i cant hide ( except behind planets maybe ). Theres no konvex horizon and no underwater. So if I would like to have a ship for battles, how would I decide to build up a fleet? Do I need so much different roles of combat ships and why should they be templated ? If I like to build a Borg-cube, why not in the same way possible as building a Battlestar Galactica with hundreds of little fighters ? It should be my decision ! Not only the stone,paper,scissor princip should make your tactics, the shipdesign ( very big ship, only big weapons, fighters, very fast, invisible, hard armored, and much more ideas welcome) itself could let you change your tactic to counter those types.

Open the shipdesign to have a bigger variety of space combat philosophy and strategy. Make up your mind to spice up the modules and have interesting possibilities for the ships.
This is not cheating, this is more tactic. Got me ?

 

[rcasale]

Personally I don't like ship designer thing in 4X games. Often it offers you 1000 possible variants but you will only build 2-3 most efficient of them. I'd rather have 10 predesigned well balanced ships with their uses. After all I play as an emperor and my job is to give general directions not fiddling with ship parts.

I think I agree with this. Although I've loved designing ships in other games, perhaps it's always just been a distraction to the more strategic gameplay that should be focused on. With that in mind I think I like the changes being made to ship design; you'll still beable to customize your fleet, but you won't have infinite options.

Though maintaining the proper ship ratios could be a pain.

 

[kalauer]

@Baleur : You are wrong.

I'm excited to see this, many Things brought up by the community are in there. Hope it Plays out well.

 

[Schatten51]

Well if we go for reality, there no *ship roles* or *designs* for space combat if ships build in Space and dont Land (like in Stellaris).
Only Cubes (ala Borg) or sphäres as they have the most efficient Volume usage.
There also no *fighters* since we not in WW2 and atmosphere....in Space only energy reserves and engine power counts and its clear *fighters* have nothing compared to big ships.
Same for Weapons....as long there no overlight fast weapons only some sort of self guided missles possible as Weapons..fire and forget. Or some sort of Scrap Schoots with millions and millions small scraps to cover a bigger area (Hallo *Fighters*!^^). Both Weapons Offensive and Defensive.
Forget all *Lasers* *tachyon Lances* or Guns....a Rocket of today moves with 200k kmh....now imagne a Stellaris Spaceship that moves with 500k kmh (still very slow) and try to aim a Gun at him while he is 50 or 100 or more km away and makes small evasive moves by slightly alternating his direction or speed up and down....good luck, you miss him by dozends km if not more.
And *Lasers*.....they still need time and than if they hit they have to burn through shield and/or armor..that needs time..means you have aim at exactly the same centimeter of the Spaceship ..while you both move with hundred thousands kmh and hundred km away...just imagine what for target mechanism you need to move the gun so that it stays in target.....so iont known if there so small nano-mechanic is even possible since 1 mm move at your side let your Laser miss you Target at those distance by dozends of km.

So basically we need in Stellaris only self Guided Missles and Slug Shots (mayby some sort of self guided anti missles too) and Spheres/Cubes with powerful engines and much reactors.
Stationary Space Stations also usless as you can simply destroy them by firing a piece of thick metall from other side of the Solar System and patiently wait till it hits...its not even possible to detect it as it has no own engine.

That for reality of *Space Combar*...i knwon not so spectacular as WW2 Fighters in Space and Battleships in Lineformations like Lineships in 17Century

What i mean...really no need to make it so complicated...i think most people would even prefer a realistic system like described...as one here has say....if i have to design ships make a Game where im Admiral or Captain in a Empire and do my Job....if im the Big Boss i really dont care what is build in i want it only effective.

 

[PK_AZ]

.in Space only energy reserves and engine power counts and its clear *fighters* have nothing compared to big ships.

They have quantity. X specialised recconaisance ships and Y battleships (or even something like space missile platform) are cheaper than X+Y battleships, which means you can have more radars in battle than enemy. And you need as many radars as possibe just because space is big.

 

[Son_of_Georg]

Not too many people discussing the utility slot rework, but when I read about that I thought to myself that that part is definitely the most annoying part of ship design to me. I love picking my weapons, but I just hit "Auto-complete" to balance out shields and power. So my thought is this: what if you dropped the module system entirely, since you're already halfway there with adding more special slot types? You could take some inspiration from FTL, where there are some interesting decisions in balancing power to shields, utilities, and weapons. That game has a brilliant way of handling all those options. Reactors vs. shields isn't really an interesting choice, since you always want to balance your energy so that it's close to zero. Instead, it should be dividing power to shields vs. weapons vs. utilities.

So, instead of "Let's see, how about 3 medium tech 2 shields, 1 large tech 3 shield, 4 small zero-point reactors, 2 medium cold fusion reactors, etc." you could have "Excellent, I unlocked zero-point reactors. Now I have the power to double my shields without removing any guns." It's a much simpler and more meaningful choice.

 

[WuphonsReach]

One of the fixes for catching enemy vessels should be that warp interdictor stations should have a radius of effect around the star system. If your line of travel passes through that radius (or sphere), then you get sucked into the system.

 

[totalkrieg]

Something I would consider is removing the ability to upgrade ships. It doesn't really make sense, being able to just rebuild the things in a totally different configuration, and I think it actually detracts from the feeling of making technological progress. Also, I often need to interrupt my fleet half-way through upgrading, and it feels wrong that I can do that. You'd obviously need to be able to junk obsolete vessels for resources, or something similar, if you went down that route. It would also make giving ships to an ally more attractive.
Think about, say, the first Honor Harrington book, where she has to use some experimental model ship with an ineffective weapon configuration, or about that series as a whole (or the CRN, or a bunch of others), where the gradual phasing in of new models over the course of the war is a theme. I'd really like to see something like that in Stellaris.

You know we didn't had upgrade button for ships and auto upgrades for mercs (we got that right?) in Europa Universalis IV and it was a BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG pain to rebuild your mercs or fleet from the scratch just to get upgrades. It was just unspeakable amounts of time spent on clicking.

 

[grommile]

One of the fixes for catching enemy vessels should be that warp interdictor stations should have a radius of effect around the star system. If your line of travel passes through that radius (or sphere), then you get sucked into the system.

Fascinating proposal.

Can you describe how to have the computer players cope with it competently?

 

[PK_AZ]

Something I would consider is removing the ability to upgrade ships. It doesn't really make sense, being able to just rebuild the things in a totally different configuration, and I think it actually detracts from the feeling of making technological progress.

You know we didn't had upgrade button for ships and auto upgrades for mercs (we got that right?) in Europa Universalis IV and it was a BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG pain to rebuild your mercs or fleet from the scratch just to get upgrades. It was just unspeakable amounts of time spent on clicking.

Honestly I think that roots of ship upgrading problem are deep, deep in design (of course if it is really a problem). Upgrading your ship is - to some extend - unrealistic, but upgrading all your navy at once is even more. The reason is that upkeep cost is actually higher than building cost (I know what I'm saying - upkeep takes your precious naval limit, when building takes mainly gold), so there's no reason at all to use obsolete ships. It's unrealistic as hell, so of course it doesn't work properly with realistic "no ship upgrading" approach.
And the funny thing is: you cannot do nothing about that, unless you change not only most core mechanics of Stellaris, but the whole way of thinking about grand strategies warfare.

 

[FullMetalFox]

@Wiz
I would like to ask for some more information regarding the new slot types and weapon changes, just so i can start working on adapting to the new system while i have some spare time in my holidays.

1. Will there be only one size of Torpedo and PD slots? Or will there be S/M/L Torpedo slots too? And if only small PD slots exist, will FLAKs be adapted?

2. Will it be possible for modders to add new weapon slots too if we see fit?

3. Will Missile type weapons now have some kind of HP or evavions? Or some other means of making PD les overperforming against larger slot and/or slow rate of fire type missiles/torpedos?

4: Would it be possible to add a acceleration stat to Missiles and Torpedos? (Propably also needs a new launch speed, or new max speed stat too)

5: Will there be new possiblities like burst/salvo fire? (Would be great for swarm missiles and other weapons)

Thank you very much for your hard work both on stellaris itself and keeping us posted!

 

[ilikegoodfood]

I've never done this before, on a Paradox Game, but this DD makes me want to respond, so here goes:
I am very much against the intended combat changes. They feel artificial, as everyone has already said, and I believe will increase, not decrease, the amount of micromanagement and power-housing that the player will need to do, while also limiting the overall number of ship designs that work effectively.
In my opinion the role of a ship and the behaviors that it exhibits should be limited by the standing orders given to the crew and captain, and therefore should be implemented in depth in the AI slot. This should then be combined with the careful balancing of components to provide a wide variety of possible effects.

I have previously spent some time working out what such a system might look like, in the hopes of learning to mod it, so here is the first-draft-top-of-my-head preliminary form:

Spoiler

1. Combat ships are capable of boosting to separate out the fleet faster at the beginning of combat. Swarm and close quarters ships will run ahead, while artillery ships and screens will slow down and allow the aggressive vessels past.
2. A disengage button allows your fleet to attempt to move away from the enemy forces, regardless of what they are. Once a minimum range is achieved, they have left combat.

• AI Modules - Any ship, with any combination of weapons and hangers, may use any ship AI, unless otherwise stated by the AI.
  • Initially available
    • Swarm - The basic close range attack that focuses on overwhelming the enemy (+Evasion, +Fire Rate, Boost)
    • Bombard - Longer range, high damage ships that redirect their power to weapons (+Range, +Damage)
  • Proximity Combat AI
    • Sacrificial - A highly damage focused, point blank form of attack with little or no regards to the ships survival, may be influenced by war policies (++Fire Rate, ++Damage, Boost, -Shields, -Armour)
    • Guardian - A close quarters vessel that is designed to protect the other combatants, extending their combat effectiveness (-Damage, -Fire Rate, Boost, ++Shields, +Hull Points, Extends its shields over nearby Ships)
  • Bombardment Combat AI
    • Artillery - Extreme range vessels with limited maneuverability and weakened defenses (++Range, ++Damage, -Speed, -Shields)
    • Evasive Bombardment - Long range, high damage ships that actively maintain their distance from the enemy. (+Range, +Damage, Moves away from the enemy fleet so as to maintain maximum weapons range, -Shields)
  • Utility AI
    • Flack Screening - These vessels sit between Bombardment AI vessels and the fight, maintaining a fixed position directly in-front of the Bombardment AI vessels. (+PD Damage, +PD Accuracy, +PD Fire Rate, -Evasion)
    • Ship Screening - These vessels sit between Bombardment AI vessels and the fight, maintaining a fixed position directly in-front of the Bombardment AI vessels, designed to take out smaller ships as they come into range. (+Range, +Accuracy, +Fire Rate, -Evasion)
  • Carrier AI
    • Evasive Carrier - These vessels sit among the bombardment vessels, behind the screen. They engage only with Strike-Craft and use their weapons for defense when absolutely necessary. (+SC Range, +SC Build Speed, Moves away from the enemy fleet so as to maintain exceed maximum weapons range, -Damage)
    • Combat Carrier - These vessels are gunboats with supporting strike-craft. They prefer to be closer to the battle and are designed primarily to handle swarms of smaller vessels or to support their strike-craft directly. (+Fire Rate, +Damage, +SC Health, -Evasion)
• Weapon Mounts
  • PD Mounts
    • Small PD Mount - Half the size of a Small Weapon Mounts, these are optimized for the delivery of large amounts of close quarters missile defense.
    • Large PD Mount - The same size as a Medium Weapon Mount, these slots can take Flak and Fragmentation Artillery and Missiles for longer ranged defense. These weapons are also moderately effective against small ships.
    • XL PD Mount - Specifically designed for extreme proximity combat or screening battleships, this mount houses the infamous PD Fragmentation Wall (Kinetic), Missile-to-Missile batteries (Explosive) and the High Energy Plasma Field (Energy). Equal in size to other XL Mounts these weapons systems can cover against all but the largest fleets.
  • XL Mounts - These immense weapon mounts are three times the size of a Large Mount and can house specially designed variants of Large Weapons.
    • Arc Net - A narrow net of Arc-Energy, these weapons hit every enemy ship in a narrow cone of fire. (50% Armour, 50% Shield Penetration)
    • Dark Matter Lance - The peak of long range weaponry, this immense weapon is capable of punching holes through even the largest vessels. (Very low fire rate, Massive Damage, 75% Armour Penetration, 25% Shield Penetration)
    • Neutron Torpedo Batteries - This specially designed multi-launch system can fire a number of Neutron Torpedoes at once and with greater accuracy than previous methods. (100% Shield Penetration, 100% Accuracy)
    • Cloud Missile Battery - The fastest missile launch system ever developed, capable of launching missiles at entire armadas at once.
    • Kinetic Transfer System - Bigger is always better. The Kinetic Transfer System deliverers previously unachievable amounts destruction through an almost continuous stream of relativistic velocity artillery shells.
    • PD Fragmentation Wall (Kinetic PD) - If you can't target it, don't. Simply fill space with bullets. (Unlimited target count)
      
    • Missile-to-Missile batteries (Explosive PD) - The best way to hit a missile with absolute accuracy is to use a faster missile. (Point-defensible but otherwise un-evadable)
      
    • High Energy Plasma Field (Energy PD) - Most missiles can't travel through a highly volatile charged plasma; Let's build a nebula. (Massive-AoE causes DoT)
• Strike Craft
  • More Types of Strike-Craft
    • Heavy Bombers - Very large and slow but with significantly more health, armor and damage. These Strike-Craft are designed to tackle only the largest of targets.
    • Micro-Drones - Incredibly small and agile, these craft have no health to speak of. If you can hit them they will crumble, but that's a big IF.
    • Screening-Drones - The unmanned strike craft are incapable of damaging most ships, instead they contain a high accuracy, low damage, point defense system. They will hang back from the fight if possible, screening the Bombardment vessels and their parent carriers. If all else fails, they will even take the shot for themselves.
    • Guiding-Drones - These fast and sturdy strike craft are designed to protect and guide missiles as they approach an enemy vessel. They will suck up all Point-Defense fire intended for their charges but only carry a small point defense weapon.
• Ship Sizes
  • Oversized Ship (Military Dictatorship) - I know that it would require more graphical work and that it is almost the same, however, I would really have liked to see this ship have an extra middle hull Module instead of the current flat buffs to damage. For details of the modules themselves, please see the WIKI.
    • Oversized Corvette (2 Segments) - An additional 2 small or 1 medium hull segment added to the back.
    • Oversized Destroyer (3 Segments) - An additional Bow Segment.
    • Oversized Cruiser (4 Segments) - An additional Core Segment.
    • Oversized Battleship (4 Segments) - An additional Core Segment.
    • Oversized Dreadnaught (4 Segments) - An additional Core Segment.
  • Dreadnought
    • 3 Ship Segments - Bow, Core and Aft
      • Bow is comparable to the Battleship's Core.
      • Core can house double a Battleship Core, up to 2 XL, 2 XL PD, 6 Large, 6 Hanger, 12 Medium, 12 Large PD, 24 Small and 48 Small PD Mounts.
      • Stern is comparable to the Battleship's Bow

I know that this is another of my vast rambling posts, that it's contents aren't entirely on-topic and that I have no experience in games-design, so it may all be gibberish, but one day I would like to implement it and see if it creates what this DD seems to miss by so much: Varied, Detailed, Logical and Option-filled combat.
Then again, when it comes out I may find I love it, so... shrug.

 

[Great_Scott]

Making Auras into their own ship class is a great idea. However, it's counter to the attempt to find a use for every ship class. Why build Battleships post-changes?

 

[Philthy]

Making Auras into their own ship class is a great idea. However, it's counter to the attempt to find a use for every ship class. Why build Battleships post-changes?

To lay waste to all before you.