Stellaris Dev Diary #43 - The Fallen

[SolarGuy]

Edit: The player would have to been given benefits for letting their empire fall into technological stagnation, like increased political stability and defensive benefits.

But isn't the idea behind technological stagnation/falling that it would occur right after an event that might have destroyed (not just conquered) big parts of an empire? Where basically, not all leftover parts could keep up with eachother technology-wise.
And that would then cause civil wars over the last bits of high-level technology (wether it's reproducable or not), therefore lowering political stability so that such a Civil War of Technology would actually happen in the game itself. At least that's what I thought.
(maybe it could turn each system or group of systems into seperate nations automatically, and THEN give them decreased ethics divergence because the individual planet needs to be united so they (and no other of the leftover states) could win the civil war)

And the defensive benefits would probably be quite automatically applied, by giving a few old ships to each of those nations. Maybe those could have slight buffs though, because of "the crews really work hard to keep these ships alive, so the empire might be reunited one day and doesn't fall into an eternal Dark Age".

 

[Zavaleta]

But isn't the idea behind technological stagnation/falling that it would occur right after an event that might have destroyed (not just conquered) big parts of an empire? Where basically, not all leftover parts could keep up with eachother technology-wise.
And that would then cause civil wars over the last bits of high-level technology (wether it's reproducable or not), therefore lowering political stability so that such a Civil War of Technology would actually happen in the game itself. At least that's what I thought.
(maybe it could turn each system or group of systems into seperate nations automatically, and THEN give them decreased ethics divergence because the individual planet needs to be united so they (and no other of the leftover states) could win the civil war)

And the defensive benefits would probably be quite automatically applied, by giving a few old ships to each of those nations. Maybe those could have slight buffs though, because of "the crews really work hard to keep these ships alive, so the empire might be reunited one day and doesn't fall into an eternal Dark Age".

That is what I was thinking. That becoming a Fallen Empire (with stability benefits) might not seem annoying to the player if it followed a period of crisis. Hey, I entered tech stagnation but that ended the devastating civil war. Something like that might work.

 

[SolarGuy]

That is what I was thinking. That becoming a Fallen Empire (with stability benefits) might not seem annoying to the player if it followed a period of crisis. Hey, I entered tech stagnation but that ended the devastating civil war. Something like that might work.

Wait, isn't that the opposite of what I was saying? I meant that it would be like this:
1. Your empire suffers from some great calamity which destroys the technological centers of the empire and destroys a lot of knowledge (this would NOT be a civil war, more something like an endgame crisis or a similar extent)
2. This causes a lot of technological stagnation and tech loss
3. Because of this stagnation / tech loss, single planets in your empire form their own nations and start a civil war to get the biggest part of what's left over. Of course, all of this happens with a lower tech level than before step 1.
4. You somehow manage to reunite the empire. Technology begins to increase again. A second Golden Age begins for the empire. And NOW, you are basically on your way to becoming a Fallen Empire yourself (by slowly stagnating, but this time without civil war), unless something similar to step 1's calamity (in terms of the effects, which are technology losses) comes up again and threatens our empire again.

 

[Zavaleta]

Wait, isn't that the opposite of what I was saying? I meant that it would be like this:
1. Your empire suffers from some great calamity which destroys the technological centers of the empire and destroys a lot of knowledge (this would NOT be a civil war, more something like an endgame crisis or a similar extent)
2. This causes a lot of technological stagnation and tech loss
3. Because of this stagnation / tech loss, single planets in your empire form their own nations and start a civil war to get the biggest part of what's left over. Of course, all of this happens with a lower tech level than before step 1.
4. You somehow manage to reunite the empire. Technology begins to increase again. A second Golden Age begins for the empire. And NOW, you are basically on your way to becoming a Fallen Empire yourself (by slowly stagnating, but this time without civil war), unless something similar to step 1's calamity (in terms of the effects, which are technology losses) comes up again and threatens our empire again.

That would work as well and probably be more fun for the player than what I suggestion. The basic problem is that few players enjoying losing anything in the first place, so the challenge is to create a process through which the player can have fun while losing ground in certain aspects of the game- like tech stagnation.

 

[PirateJack]

The furthest I'd go for making Fallen Empires out of normal ones is to have empires that you've won the game with go on to become Fallen Empires in other games.

 

[Gamesguy]

The War in Heaven (Paid Feature)
We've talked about what happens when one Fallen Empire awakens, but what happens if there's two of them? For those with the DLC, two empires of opposing ethos (for example, Xenophobe and Xenophile) awakening can result in the War in Heaven event triggering. This event will cause the two Awakened Empires to go to war over the fate of the galaxy, dragging in the lesser species to fight on their side. All empires will be presented with a choice - join one of the two Awakened Empires and bet on their victory, join a league of non-aligned empires and hope you can stand against them both, or stand alone and risk being trampled underfoot when the war comes your way. Unlike a normal war, the War in Heaven is a cataclysmic event that will not end once a few worlds have been captured or a few battles won - it will be a fight to the death that ends only when one Awakened Empire stands victorious or both have been subjugated. If one of the Awakened Empires wins, they will show favor to those who supported them and be merciless to those who opposed them.

How will this work in multiplayer? If I have a game with 10 players and only 5 people have this DLC, will it still trigger or does everyone need to have it?

 

[Pchang]

Only the host needs to have it. However, DLC specific artwork will not appear for those without the DLC.

 

[Duuk]

Wait, isn't that the opposite of what I was saying? I meant that it would be like this:
1. Your empire suffers from some great calamity which destroys the technological centers of the empire and destroys a lot of knowledge (this would NOT be a civil war, more something like an endgame crisis or a similar extent)
2. This causes a lot of technological stagnation and tech loss
3. Because of this stagnation / tech loss, single planets in your empire form their own nations and start a civil war to get the biggest part of what's left over. Of course, all of this happens with a lower tech level than before step 1.
4. You somehow manage to reunite the empire. Technology begins to increase again. A second Golden Age begins for the empire. And NOW, you are basically on your way to becoming a Fallen Empire yourself (by slowly stagnating, but this time without civil war), unless something similar to step 1's calamity (in terms of the effects, which are technology losses) comes up again and threatens our empire again.

You just described the Foundation stories by Isaac Asimov.

 

[SolarGuy]

That would work as well and probably be more fun for the player than what I suggestion. The basic problem is that few players enjoying losing anything in the first place, so the challenge is to create a process through which the player can have fun while losing ground in certain aspects of the game- like tech stagnation.

While that is certainly a big challenge to do, I believe it could be really rewarding in the end. It would give this game a more intense feeling of its premise, "The galaxy is ancient and full of wonders". Additionally, we could form our own history to the game over the course of millenia of technological development, instead of just "stagnating" in terms of strength because there is no challenge anymore.
With such a feature in Stellaris, you would constantly need to push against the decline of your empire, which would get more difficult with a bigger size. It could make the midgame and endgame a lot of fun if done right. It should be handled by events that, somewhat (but not completely, as there is hidden randomness to it) controlled by your decisions, will cause different positive and negative things to happen in your empire.
You might want to create worlds entirely committed to saving your technological advancements, or maybe you will turn Gaia-class planets into places where all species of the galaxy are preserved for the case of a sudden extinction event. And such events would be much more likely to happen with high-level technology, with ancient doomsday weapons getting less and less reliable and predictable if the empire using them cannot maintain them correctly. Artificial intelligence might be the way to go, as robotic bodies could be quickly created if you have the necessary materials.
An empire constantly facing the threat of technological decline would want to put themselves into robotic bodies, but that wouldn't be called a necessary step unless something really bad happened that forces them to abandon their organic existence. Or AI could be the demise of all organic life in the galaxy if some terrorists start using it against you, or if they start developing a feeling of superiority or suddenly believe that organic life has to be exterminated to be saved due to programming errors.

You just described the Foundation stories by Isaac Asimov.

I really should get around to reading the Foundation stories one day.

 

[Jorlem]

I really should get around to reading the Foundation stories one day.

You really should. They're amazing.

 

[SolarGuy]

You really should. They're amazing.

That's what everyone tells me, but I never got to actually read the books.
Okay, I actually did see and take one in the local library a week ago. But then I realised it was the second book, not the first one (which wasn't available). So I'm gonna read the other seven books I got there as well instead.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

While that is certainly a big challenge to do, I believe it could be really rewarding in the end. It would give this game a more intense feeling of its premise, "The galaxy is ancient and full of wonders". Additionally, we could form our own history to the game over the course of millenia of technological development, instead of just "stagnating" in terms of strength because there is no challenge anymore.

With such a feature in Stellaris, you would constantly need to push against the decline of your empire, which would get more difficult with a bigger size. It could make the midgame and endgame a lot of fun if done right. It should be handled by events that, somewhat (but not completely, as there is hidden randomness to it) controlled by your decisions, will cause different positive and negative things to happen in your empire.

That would certainly be an interesting way of doing things. Say instead of the increased tech costs for planets and POPs you instead have a ticking stagnation modifier that increases faster the more planets and POPs you have. That instead then increases tech costs and at very high levels it can trigger crises in your empire. Rivalries, being pacifists, and government technologies would give reductions to your stagnation.

 

[Zavaleta]

That would certainly be an interesting way of doing things. Say instead of the increased tech costs for planets and POPs you instead have a ticking stagnation modifier that increases faster the more planets and POPs you have. That instead then increases tech costs and at very high levels it can trigger crises in your empire. Rivalries, being pacifists, and government technologies would give reductions to your stagnation.

I remember there was an interesting mod for Civ5 that introduced a "maintenance" cost for every technology researched. It was a passive modifier, rather than an actual cost of gold or currency, that increased with the number of cities and science buildings owned like libraries. Researching past the maintenance limit increased the cost of technologies until it was prohibitive. You could work against the limit by building science buildings and researching science technologies that increased your limit. But if you lost a city or an important library you would decline in science research and possibly lose technologies.

Maybe a Stellaris modder will get inspired to introduce such a system into the game. Would be a fun mechanic for "epic" timescale games, intended to last millennias rather than just centuries like vanilla Stellaris.

 

[SolarGuy]

That would certainly be an interesting way of doing things. Say instead of the increased tech costs for planets and POPs you instead have a ticking stagnation modifier that increases faster the more planets and POPs you have. That instead then increases tech costs and at very high levels it can trigger crises in your empire. Rivalries, being pacifists, and government technologies would give reductions to your stagnation.

I remember there was an interesting mod for Civ5 that introduced a "maintenance" cost for every technology researched. It was a passive modifier, rather than an actual cost of gold or currency, that increased with the number of cities and science buildings owned like libraries. Researching past the maintenance limit increased the cost of technologies until it was prohibitive. You could work against the limit by building science buildings and researching science technologies that increased your limit. But if you lost a city or an important library you would decline in science research and possibly lose technologies.

Maybe a Stellaris modder will get inspired to introduce such a system into the game. Would be a fun mechanic for "epic" timescale games, intended to last millennias rather than just centuries like vanilla Stellaris.

I saw one person that made a 1000 years game so far, but currently the game just progresses too fast (and/or doesn't have enough content) to stay engaging for several millennia.
That could be changed by things like more events and wars, at a really large scale.

A planet could turn out to be a really ancient time machine buried under so much rock that it turned into a planet after some million years, including intelligent life. Or an asteroid belt could suddenly start putting itself together into a planet again after someone activated a strange machine on the other side of the galaxy. As time progresses, stranger and stranger things should be found among the stars, not previously visible due to a lack in technology. Entire star systems could be cloaked so they could only be found with technologies long since lost to the ages, that have to be re-discovered or entirely re-invented. Someone might realise a way to use black holes to travel much faster through the galaxy. Or they gather gasses from all over the galaxy to just make new star systems by technological means, creating entirely new places where people could live. Or a militaristic materialistic empire could just make a star go supernova to shoot heavily shielded, ridiculously gigantic colony ships housing trillions of beings into the intergalactic void. We could create our own Ringworlds and Dyson Swarms, our own Orbitals, our own nanobot clouds engulfing entire star systems and being networked together with other stars' nano-clouds to create a truly galactic computer network of enormous power, being capable of performing ANY calculation within a reasonable amount of time (which would still be decades, for an empire capable of creating these). Maybe that could be one of the only ways to NOT need thousands of years to research some of the technologies we should get at this level.

Or maybe someone else invented any of these technologies and therefore your galaxy gets colonised by such an intergalactic colonisation vessel.
Or one of your black hole travellers discovers an ancient fleet (fully crewed) that got stuck in the event horizon and basically got frozen in time for several billion years. And those crews tell you stories, stories of rising and falling empires, involving technologies that even your galactic nation, even though it is already extremely advanced by most standards, cannot comprehend at all.

And now think about it: What if all these technologies could not always be created? If empires could lose the ability to create new nanobotic computer clouds or new Black Hole Travel Devices, and the only pieces of highly advanced technology would be slowly falling apart if not preserved carefully. You would want to build worlds entirely committed to one goal: Not letting this knowledge disappear. Or a planet filled with genetic databanks housing the data of all organic life of the entire galaxy that existed at some point in the distant past.
To make this even more epic, we would need the ability to "swap" to another empire if our original one was defeated, so the ancient heritage of our species could always live, instead of fading in the infinite vastness of space, where probably nobody would even notice.

I'm imagining a Stellaris that is fundamentally the same as the one we have right now, but on a MUCH MUCH MUUUUUUCH more gigantic scale (both in terms of space and time).
And if it is ever like that, it's going to be awesome.

 

[core 1401]

it will be a godlike game if that will happend!

 

[Magical Chicken]

Personaly I believe that Fallen empire ship's should use unreaserchable far more advanced technology (a bit like their advanced buildings). To me it just doesn't make sence as to why Fallen Empire ships have the same level of tech as you around 200 years into the game despite the face they are supposed to millenia old.

 

[Tabris01]

Personaly I believe that Fallen empire ship's should use unreaserchable far more advanced technology (a bit like their advanced buildings). To me it just doesn't make sence as to why Fallen Empire ships have the same level of tech as you around 200 years into the game despite the face they are supposed to millenia old.

It should at least be partially possible to reverse-engineer it but I agree it should never be reachable by simple research

 

[SolarGuy]

Personaly I believe that Fallen empire ship's should use unreaserchable far more advanced technology (a bit like their advanced buildings). To me it just doesn't make sence as to why Fallen Empire ships have the same level of tech as you around 200 years into the game despite the face they are supposed to millenia old.

Yeah. Some people want to hold everything you can see in their own empire's hands, but personally I am much more happier with not being able to do everything.

This is even true in the game FreeOrion, where in the endgame you can destroy complete *sectors* at once (possibly cutting off a part of the galaxy from the starlane/hyperlane network) by collapsing entire black holes. But you will never get that extremely strong precursor armour, it's just not obtainable in any way. The only thing that gets relatively "close" to it is neutronium armour, which is only 1/10 the strength of precursor armour. And that's how I like it. I don't need that precursor armour, as there should always be something that makes my empire different from one that existed for thousands or even millions of years.

And even with reverse-engineering, we should only be able to get a weaker form of the original Fallen Empire technology in most cases. I mean, if the Fallen Empire with an entire ringworld of processing power is not capable of understanding their own technology, then how should a silly small group of normal people (a.k.a. our empire) have the means necessary to immediately understand how to build billions of new tachyon lances?

 

[FlyingPhoenix]

Is this actually going to be fun? Being stomped by an Awakened Fallen Empire which keeps researching +5% energy weapons, while forcing you into a particular playstyle, doesn't sound fun.

 

[Magical Chicken]

Is this actually going to be fun? Being stomped by an Awakened Fallen Empire which keeps researching +5% energy weapons, while forcing you into a particular playstyle, doesn't sound fun.

From the sounds of things fallen empires only actually awake:
1) When an empire reaches simular power level too them
2) When an empire beats another fallen empire
3) As an engame crisis or result of an engame crisis.
In all 3 of these scenarios the player will have reached a sufficient level that they are able to fight against the awakened empire (expecially if they form some kind of anti-fallen empire coilition).