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Stellaris Dev Diary #45 - Ship Balance

Hello everyone!

Today we will go into the sixth part in a multi-part dev diary about the 'Heinlein' 1.3 update and accompanying (unannounced) content DLC. The topic of today's dev diary is the changes to ship roles and ship balance.

Ship Roles
The new design intends to give each ship a more unique combat role. Some ships will be defensive, while others will be more offensive.

Corvettes
Small and aggressive ships with high evasion that can be equipped with torpedoess. They will be very effective against large ships like battleships due to their high evasion and access to torpedoes. They have very low armor, but a very high chance to evade.

Destroyers
Defensive ships that are designed to counter corvettes, which is why they receive an innate +10 bonus to Tracking. They can be equipped with point-defense weapons, to shoot down the torpedoes fired by corvettes. They have moderate armor, and a moderate chance to evade.

Cruisers
These aggressive ships should be able to put out a lot of damage, but at the cost of less defense. Cruisers, like corvettes, can also be equipped with torpedoes. But unlike corvettes, they can also be equipped with hangars for strike craft. They have somewhat high armor, and a small chance to evade.

Battleships
The new role for battleships will be durable capital ships that fire at its enemies from a long distance. They are the only ship size that can be equipped with extra large weapons. They have very high armor, but minimal evasion.

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Evasion, Tracking & Armor
A new feature in the Heinlein patch will be the Tracking stat. Each weapon will have a Tracking value that determines how effective they are against ships with high evasion. Every point of Tracking reduces the target’s chance to evade that attack by the same amount. Small weapons will have high Tracking, medium weapons will have medium Tracking, and large weapons will have minimal Tracking.

This means that large weapons - with a poor Tracking value - will still be very effective against large ships like cruisers or battleships, but almost useless against small ships like corvettes due to their high evasion.

The armor penetration of weapons has also been rebalanced so that large weapons have a much higher armor penetration values than smaller weapons.

In effect, this means that small weapons are good at shooting at small ships, while large weapons are good at shooting at large ships.

Another note is that missile weapons no longer ignore evasion, and can be evaded like normal. Most missiles, however, will have a very high Tracking value.

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New Slots
Something new in the Heinlein patch will be the introduction of a couple of new slot types.

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The extra large slot will contain powerful spinal-mounted weapons that are designed to target and take out enemy capital ships. Only Battleships will have a ship section with this weapon slot.

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The torpedo slot, as evident by its name, will hold torpedoes. Torpedoes are slow firing weapons that deal massive damage, perfect for taking down larger ships. Unlike other missiles, however, torpedoes do not have good Tracking, which means they are very ineffective against ships with high evasion, such as corvettes or destroyers.

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The auxiliary slot will hold components that have ship-wide effects. Crystal-Forged Armor, Shield Capacitors and Regenerative Hull Tissue are examples of components that will now be equipped in this slot.

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Point-defense weapons now have its own slot size. The idea is that you should need to specialize some ships into countering enemy torpedoes

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Major weapon rebalancing
Most weapons have been rebalanced to better suit the new design.

That's all for this week! Join us again next monday when we’ll be back with another dev diary!
 
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Thank you, @grekulf , for taking the time to put together a DD specifying in more detail the changes to the new ship roles and ship-to-ship combat. Your efforts are appreciated.

As time moves on, I would love to see the ship design process become more complex and involving more choices imposed on the players, with new components and ship classes, just to add my two cents to the suggestion box. I still dream of the return of the Super Stealth race. :cool:

Otherwise, I am thoroughly loving the game. Species design is my addiction (& the aforementioned ship design). It has been since my days of my Stars! addiction. So, to see a later release with more design choices would be wonderful! :cool: I've had more fun with Stellaris than any other space empire game since Stars!, so please keep up the good work.

And just so we are clear, this is not sarcasm. :)
 
This feels overly restrictive. it's basically rock paper scissors spock. If each class hard counters another, what is the point of ship design ? Also the DD was very scarce in new info. What about the rebalance of Laser/Missile/Kinetic tech ?
I can't name a single game where Rock-Paper-Scissors design of weapons worked. Endless Space devs acnowledged that such approach was a mistake and stated that they won't repeat same mistake in ES2. GalCivII and III simply sucked.
 
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Seems interesting, but a couple of things I'd like to ask:

1) Corvettes are big ship killers, but they're also the starting ships. Can you still mount small guns or corvettes, or are we going to start the game with battles of corvettes flinging torpedoes at one another and missing horribly the whole time?

2) Is there any change to the number of hangars that can be equipped on cruisers and battleships? Right now, even picking all the hangar based slots only gives you a handful of fighters. I'd really like to see setups where most of a capital ships modules can be set up to contain strike fighters--basically making true carriers.

1.)I bet the tech tree will remain the same, you probably have to research torps as an alternative.

2.) I would like this with the changes to anti strike craft PD (Flak cannons) being added to energy and missile techs as well.
 
I can't name a single game where Rock-Paper-Scissors design of weapons worked. Endless Space devs acnowledged that such approach was a mistake and stated that they won't repeat same mistake in ES2. GalCivII and III simply sucked.
Homeworld, Sword of the stars
 
Give a soldier a bazooka, his role is anti-tank
Give a solder a machine gun, his role is fire support or fire supremacy.
Give a soldier a rifle, his role is anti-soldier, medium range.
Its always a soldier, his utilities makes the role. Please let shipdesigns be free, if wanted, so I can decide which role it should play.

Give a crew a corvette, their role is anti-capital ship.
Give a crew a destroyer, their role is anti-corvette.
Give a crew a cruiser, their role is anti-destroyer.
Give a crew a battleship, their role is artillery.
It's the class of ship that makes the role.

Your analogy was possibly the most useless way to try to argue against ship designs, especially because you listed specific classes of guns. You can't modify something like an RPG to suit the same function as a machine gun. You literally just made an argument for specific ship class roles.
 
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I am really looking forward to Heinlein, but to be honest, this combat rework I dont like very much. To me it seems to add many artificial restictions.

I like the try to make corvettes and destroyers viable through the game, but hate beeing forced to use small ships after I researched new ones. Why shouldnt I be able to make few battleship models? Each effective against other type of the enemy?

I liked old (current) combat cocept much more. Sure it has big flaws in balance, but it is much less restrictive and I think it shouldnt be that hard to balance properly.

Not trying to say that pure battlehip fleets shoud be better the mixed, but at least semi-viable.
 
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Rock paper scissor lizard spock type balance works decently because it can do a pretty good job of making sure there is no best option.

I think the roles are fine. We hAve ships of assorted sizes with assorted roles in modern military.

I have a couple questions though: are the bonuses from repeating techs gonna get fixed? Increased energy weapon damage or kinetic weapon speed etc? Are strike craft getting a rework?
 
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Give a crew a corvette, their role is anti-capital ship.
Give a crew a destroyer, their role is anti-corvette.
Give a crew a cruiser, their role is anti-destroyer.
Give a crew a battleship, their role is artillery.
It's the class of ship that makes the role.

Your analogy was possibly the most useless way to try to argue against ship designs, especially because you listed specific classes of guns. You can't modify something like an RPG to suit the same function as a machine gun. You literally just made an argument for specific ship class roles.

You certainly can't give a high caliber flak cannon an anti tank round

Nor can you give the RPG a HE/FRAG warhead instead of a HEAT warhead now can you?

The Analogy is fine
 
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Between this method of rebalancing the classes and the new 'pirate space creature' system where sentient creatures that pre exist your civilization are being represented by a mechanic designed to show native space-fauna; I have to say I am really starting to question the game design.

Pair this with the almost visceral opposition to an engaging and expanded ground-combat mechanic, I am seeing dark omens.

@Wiz, you better change course I am going to have to play more EU4 instead...
I could not disagree more, especially about ground combat. I've never played a space 4x that had ground combat that was anything but annoying, for exactly he reasons that Wiz has stated. Detailed ground combat just has no place in a game spanning hundreds or thousands of stars.
 
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I like the reworking of how ships work, it was something I've been hoping to see for a while now. Yeah, it does feel a bit rock-paper-scissors-ish to me, but I think you can't fully avoid it if you want all ship classes to function. In past space 4X games I've played once you get the next ship type you just start building fleets of that, which I've never liked. I've always wanted fleets of mixed ship sizes fulfilling specific roles instead of just small, medium, large, and extra large sizes of ships with just more of what you use. I like the idea of cruisers being the back bone of my fleet, with battleships having the biggest punch while needing to screen them with destroyers from corvettes searching for holes in my lines to exploit. I know it probably won't work out exactly that way, but I think this is a move in the right direction.

I'm looking forward to what else is coming down the pipe for the next patch and the DLC. I'm hopeful we might find something of a trade system similar to SWOTS or like in EU4.

Well, another way to do it would have been like this:

Have torpedoes be in slots like now, but on hull sections available on all ships.

1) Have Torpedoes do a certain range of damage and DPS, with different torpedoed having different effects.

All in a one-size fits-all package.
No size differences.

2) Have torpedoes hit above the weight of a corvette or destroyer, but about average for a cruiser with large weapons, so that torpedoes mechanically make the most sense on Corvettes and the least sense on Battleships, purely from DPS.

3) Have torpedoes have a shorter range than large and extra-large shipboard weapons, but with better tracking, so that a battleship still might benefit from torpedoes as a much cheaper alternate to strike-craft, providing that anti-cruser/battleship capability when thsoe ships close the distance.

By addressing torpedoes in this manner it solves the same problems, does the same things, but it does so with the weapon mechanics themselves giving the player an illusion of greater choice and flexibility.

Then, with spinal weapons:

1) Limit the firing ark to forward/rear so closing the distance is a valid strategy.

2) Have the range on broadside tactics from computers place ships outside that ark.

Now you have reopened a niche for strike craft, Corvettes, and torpedoes across the board.
 
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You certainly can't give a high caliber flak cannon an anti tank round

Nor can you give the RPG a HE/FRAG warhead instead of a HEAT warhead now can you?

The Analogy is fine

The analogy is absolutely asinine. It's insisting on not recognizing the differences between different types of guns.

If you think any weapon can have the same application as any other type of weapon if you just switch out parts and ammo, you might be delusional. Why else do different types of weapons exist? If you were correct, there would be no need.
 
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Will it be easier to manage and split up fleets with a bunch (>10) of ship designs?
 
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The analogy is absolutely asinine. It's insisting on not recognizing the differences between different types of guns.

If you think any weapon can have the same application as any other type of weapon if you just switch out parts and ammo, you might be delusional. Why else do different types of weapons exist? If you were correct, there would be no need.

So your saying we can't have other options to ships aside from the intended role because they are not the most effective?

Will it be easier to manage and split up fleets with a bunch (>10) of ship designs?

Probably not. I seriously hope they fix the UI regarding that.
 
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Have to admit I don't actually like this. Seems unnecessarily restrictive and not particularly logical. Still looking forward to the DLC and not complaining about the game as a whole by any means, I just think this particular set of changes is moving in the wrong direction.

I actually think it's pretty logical.

This model makes Corvettes equivalent to the torpedo boats of naval combat in Earth's history.

Destroyers are also placed in the role of destroyers in naval combat as we know it (originally torpedo boat destroyers, shortened to destroyers).

Cruisers can now be built as traditional cruisers or traditional carriers.

Battleships are now what battleships have historically been.

Whether or not you like that space combat is based off of Earth naval combat is a different animal. But, I think it's a solid system for the game's purposes that simulates combat roles pretty effectively without necessarily detailing everything out with tiresome complexity.
 
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