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Stellaris Dev Diary #45 - Ship Balance

Hello everyone!

Today we will go into the sixth part in a multi-part dev diary about the 'Heinlein' 1.3 update and accompanying (unannounced) content DLC. The topic of today's dev diary is the changes to ship roles and ship balance.

Ship Roles
The new design intends to give each ship a more unique combat role. Some ships will be defensive, while others will be more offensive.

Corvettes
Small and aggressive ships with high evasion that can be equipped with torpedoess. They will be very effective against large ships like battleships due to their high evasion and access to torpedoes. They have very low armor, but a very high chance to evade.

Destroyers
Defensive ships that are designed to counter corvettes, which is why they receive an innate +10 bonus to Tracking. They can be equipped with point-defense weapons, to shoot down the torpedoes fired by corvettes. They have moderate armor, and a moderate chance to evade.

Cruisers
These aggressive ships should be able to put out a lot of damage, but at the cost of less defense. Cruisers, like corvettes, can also be equipped with torpedoes. But unlike corvettes, they can also be equipped with hangars for strike craft. They have somewhat high armor, and a small chance to evade.

Battleships
The new role for battleships will be durable capital ships that fire at its enemies from a long distance. They are the only ship size that can be equipped with extra large weapons. They have very high armor, but minimal evasion.

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Evasion, Tracking & Armor
A new feature in the Heinlein patch will be the Tracking stat. Each weapon will have a Tracking value that determines how effective they are against ships with high evasion. Every point of Tracking reduces the target’s chance to evade that attack by the same amount. Small weapons will have high Tracking, medium weapons will have medium Tracking, and large weapons will have minimal Tracking.

This means that large weapons - with a poor Tracking value - will still be very effective against large ships like cruisers or battleships, but almost useless against small ships like corvettes due to their high evasion.

The armor penetration of weapons has also been rebalanced so that large weapons have a much higher armor penetration values than smaller weapons.

In effect, this means that small weapons are good at shooting at small ships, while large weapons are good at shooting at large ships.

Another note is that missile weapons no longer ignore evasion, and can be evaded like normal. Most missiles, however, will have a very high Tracking value.

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New Slots
Something new in the Heinlein patch will be the introduction of a couple of new slot types.

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The extra large slot will contain powerful spinal-mounted weapons that are designed to target and take out enemy capital ships. Only Battleships will have a ship section with this weapon slot.

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The torpedo slot, as evident by its name, will hold torpedoes. Torpedoes are slow firing weapons that deal massive damage, perfect for taking down larger ships. Unlike other missiles, however, torpedoes do not have good Tracking, which means they are very ineffective against ships with high evasion, such as corvettes or destroyers.

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The auxiliary slot will hold components that have ship-wide effects. Crystal-Forged Armor, Shield Capacitors and Regenerative Hull Tissue are examples of components that will now be equipped in this slot.

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Point-defense weapons now have its own slot size. The idea is that you should need to specialize some ships into countering enemy torpedoes

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Major weapon rebalancing
Most weapons have been rebalanced to better suit the new design.

That's all for this week! Join us again next monday when we’ll be back with another dev diary!
 
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You could also make late game defense installations have SOOOO much armour that you pretty much need battleships to take them out. Or some happy median.

You have this now. The late game fortresses typically have a strength of anywhere from 7K - 12K. Battleships typically have a strength of slightly less then 2K.
 
It appears to me that the AI ship design is trying to maximize some basis function for calculating ship strength. Thus, it would automatically accommodate any new/changed weapon characteristics. My only suggestion is that the basis function be modified to put a higher value on weapon range that it currently does.
 
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What I would like is some toggle to turn on 'best build' for specific classes of ship.

Like transports and colony ships really don't need all the bells and whistles. But you want to have autobest for stations so that you can upgrade them all properly.
 
You have this now. The late game fortresses typically have a strength of anywhere from 7K - 12K. Battleships typically have a strength of slightly less then 2K.
No we don't. Military power is utterly useless as a measure of combat effectiveness because it's calculated using an exponent of DPS and total HP. This vastly overvalues larger ships with more hp and undervalues smaller ships with less hp.

Go test it yourself. Take 4k worth of destroyers with lances up against 6k worth of battleships with lances, the destroyers will roflstomp the battleships.
 
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I took the request to mean that he wanted a fortress strong enough that it would take more than 1 battleship to take it out. Based upon fleet cap metrics, this would mean more than 8 cap worth of ships. I believe the Fortress takes at least 16 cap worth of ships to take out.
 
You have this now. The late game fortresses typically have a strength of anywhere from 7K - 12K. Battleships typically have a strength of slightly less then 2K.

The idea being that, XL weapons are almost require to take out fortresses. Making defense installations useful against raid attacks.
 
I like the proposed changes. Nowhere did I read that you are locked into the ship-roles. I am sure you could outfit your ship the way you wanted with choice of modules and computers. While some designs might be more optimal then others, you might be faced with game situations where a less optimal design, or balanced ship designs, is actually the best for the strategic situation at hand.

These changes, along with other areas that have been mentioned in recent dev diaries relating to combat (like changes in movement speeds, warp cooldown times, introduction of afterburners, etc.) and possibility of using different fleet formations besides just a cone, are all massive steps. I perceive them as huge improvements.

Is there a possibility of unintended consequences? Sure, but the risk is worth the changes, which are all positive.
 
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Well at least these tracking addition fixes the 120 range strat with particle lances on destroyers and battleships. Not exactly sure how this going to work out, but it is interesting. I wish there was some type of graph that visualizes ship X vs ship Y.

Lances are likely to be XL weapons only so only battleships will have them...
 
Lances are likely to be XL weapons only so only battleships will have them...

Probably.

On the other hand, in this very dev diary, the Kinetic Artillery (the projectile "equivalent" of lances) is shown to be still an L-slot weapon (but, likely, was nerfed) - Kinetic weapons get a new XL slot weapon, the 'Giga cannon'...
 
Hmm. Still no mention of fast ships being able disengage from a battle. If we have a fight between a fleet of corvettes and a fleet of battleships, and neither fleet is taking enough damage to die, then we could have an impasse that does not end... I would hate the only way to end this situation is an 'emergency warpout.'
 
Hmm. Still no mention of fast ships being able disengage from a battle. If we have a fight between a fleet of corvettes and a fleet of battleships, and neither fleet is taking enough damage to die, then we could have an impasse that does not end... I would hate the only way to end this situation is an 'emergency warpout.'
With the new changes the Battleships would get absolutely demolished. They can no longer hit small ships efficiently unless they equip themselves with small arms (which they rarely do) and furthermore Corvettes now have Torpedoes which are specifically designed to decimate Battleships. It's like people don't even read the dev diaries they post on.
 
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With the new changes the Battleships would get absolutely demolished. They can no longer hit small ships efficiently unless they equip themselves with small arms (which they rarely do) and furthermore Corvettes now have Torpedoes which are specifically designed to decimate Battleships. It's like people don't even read the dev diaries they post on.

It's not specified though if all corvette hulls will have torpedo slots, i doubt the option will be available right away or be mandatory (ie we should still be able to make anti-corvette corvettes).
 
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With the new changes the Battleships would get absolutely demolished. They can no longer hit small ships efficiently unless they equip themselves with small arms (which they rarely do) and furthermore Corvettes now have Torpedoes which are specifically designed to decimate Battleships. It's like people don't even read the dev diaries they post on.
Well it sounds like Corvettes are the cruiser and battleship killers (Like torpedo boats IRL). Destroyers are the defensive screeners (which is literally what they do IRL), Cruisers are all rounder multi-purpose vessels deployed as the center of say, a fast response force, and battleships are the cores of invasion fleets, only launched when you need that super heavy hitting artillery to cut through the enemies.

I imagine Cruisers are actually basically 'anti-light' as they'll probably have plenty of small weapons placements compared to battleships, which will probably have no small weapons placements anywhere on them. Cruisers are there to clear away destroyers and corvettes, or can be tooled to get stuck in and assist corvettes in killing other cruisers and battleships. Where as the battleships just sit back and hammer everything.

What it means is that the Cruiser, not the battleship, will likely be the core of any battleforce, with battleships forming more of a backup support role in the form if primary DPS, but the cruisers remaining the backbone of the fleet.
 
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Ok, I'm going to address this whole "Lack of choice" thing now. Because its simply not true.

What is the new system? You are able to design your own ships to do different things. Some ships will have limitations [No XL weapons on anything smaller than a BB], but they all will still be able to designed to fill different roles, they simple excel and are primarily designed around a single role per ship type.

What is the current system? You are able to design your own ships to do different things. Some ships have limitations [No L weapons on Corvettes], but they all are still able to be designed to fill different roles, they simply excel at only 2 roles in their entirety; Corvettes/Destroyers; PD screen. Destroyers/Cruisers/Battleships: Lances. In fact cruisers aren't even needed ATM, nor Corvettes.

The system changes things from 2 ship designs, to minimum 4 ship designs. You now have more viability in the number of things you can build. Yeah, not every design is going to be the optimal best design, and ships have a specific purpose that they'll excel in - but its similar now. Not every design is an optimal best design, and ships excel primarily by having a large slot to shove lances on to. Differentiating ships and adding some counters to the mix - much like we have with weapons ATM - will make things more interesting, and lead to more viable ship designs, with minimal impact on the freedom of designing your own ships.
 
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It's not specified though if all corvette hulls will have torpedo slots, i doubt the option will be available right away or be mandatory (ie we should still be able to make anti-corvette corvettes).
And if they don't it's moot because the tech disadvantage would be completely insane. If you didn't have torpedoes against Battleships, and you don't have any cruisers, it seems like you are pretty much done anyway. I'm just saying the specific scenario that this person said would never happen, as it would either be a completely one-sided roflstomp of the battleships or the corvettes would be so hopelessly technologically inferior that it wouldn't matter how bad the tracking on Battleships is.
 
It's not specified though if all corvette hulls will have torpedo slots, i doubt the option will be available right away or be mandatory (ie we should still be able to make anti-corvette corvettes).

The Torpedo slot is only on certain Corvette hulls, unlocked when you get your research your first torpedo.
Until them you have the Corvettes with Small hard points only and no Torpedo tubes.

From the Dev Dairy it looks like the 1S1M Striker Core has become 1S1T and the 3S Interceptor Core and 1S Shifter Core will be the ones available at game start.

With armour having a increased effect based on smaller Hull size the Shifter Core with 2 Medium and 3 small utility slots might make good use of armour early game.

Wi9ll be interesting to pair Shifter Core corvettes with after burners armour and a short range weapon, with Interceptor Core Corvettes with longer range weapons.

The Shifter move to engage and draw fire, whilst the Interceptor follow up with the additional firepower from the second line
 
The Torpedo slot is only on certain Corvette hulls, unlocked when you get your research your first torpedo.
Until them you have the Corvettes with Small hard points only and no Torpedo tubes.

From the Dev Dairy it looks like the 1S1M Striker Core has become 1S1T and the 3S Interceptor Core and 1S Shifter Core will be the ones available at game start.
Where did you read that? Or is this more Wild Speculation™?
 
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I love the addition of spinal weapons into Stellaris, making Battleships into long range artillery platforms designed to kill other capital and semi-capital ships is one of my favorite ideas in space combat. Anyone have any ideas as to what the missile XL weapon will be? Seems a little strange as missile weapons don't really need to be mounted spinally seeing as how they aren't propelled or generated and are simply launched, maybe some kind of massive missile or swarm missile launcher?

So could someone correct me if I'm getting this basic balance wrong:
Corvettes > target Battleships/Cruisers
Destroyers > target Corvettes and acting as missile shield for fleet
Cruisers > essentially target everything but maybe slightly less effective against corvettes due to high evasion(although their main role seems to be targeting enemy destroyers to clear the way for allied torpedoes)
Battleships > targets Cruisers so they can't take out your destroyers, and Battleships so they can't take out you're Battleships and Cruisers

So unless I'm getting this wrong, doesn't this mean that each ship has pretty clear targeting priorities, and would essentially make no sense to simply target closest enemy? We haven't really heard anything about an improvement in fleet AI beyond I think a mention of possibly editing formation early in Heinlein. So I'm just wondering since the way these new ship roles work we haven't really heard anything about targeting priorities, which is kind of worrying. Maybe behavior computers already decide this and I'm just worrying for nothing.
 
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