Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary will be about some more changes coming in the 1.8 'Čapek' update, with a particular focus on Hive Minds and Traditions.

Hive Minds
Hive Minds was a feature in Utopia that we were not unhappy with, but felt we could have done more on. While it works fine from a gameplay perspective, offering a different mode of play for those who do not wish to concern themselves with internal politicking and just want to get on with building their glorious empire among the stars (and eating those that stand in their way), Hive Minds ended up somewhat lacking in the flavor department, and suffered narratively from gameplay text that does not fit a Hive-Minded society, such as early exploration events.

For 1.8, we've decided to make a major push to improve Hive Minds, both narratively and gameplay-wise. Many events have been changed, disabled or rewritten to fit Hive Minds and their unique societies. We've also tried to address a number of non-event related narrative breaks, such as replacing the 'Sprawling Slums' starting planet tile blocker with a unique tile blocker only found on Hive Mind homeworlds. A new system for relocalising technologies based on government authority types was also created, and a number of technologies will now have different, more suitable names for Hive Minds (such as renaming Administrative AI to Synaptic Enhancers). Some new, unique interactions were also added to the game to emphasise the inherent psionic nature of Hive Minds.

We've also changed the way Hive Minds interact with non-Hive Mind pops. While we still do not want non-Hive Minded Pops to be regular citizens of Hive Minds (for numerous reasons, the main one being keeping Hive Minds distinct from regular empires in how they are played), we have added the option to keep them around as Livestock instead of simply being processed or displaced. AI-controlled Hive Mind empires now also vary in how they treat Pops of other species, with some preferring displacement and others making use of livestock or processing. Livestock/Processing have been buffed from 3/6 food per Pop to 6/8 respectively, and a number of fixes have been made to ensure that Pops that are kept as livestock do not incur building maintenance or similar issues.

Devouring Swarms
In addition to the changes to regular Hive Minds, we've also devoted some more attention to the Devouring Swarm civic that was added in 1.6. Devouring Swarms have had their bonuses increased to be more on par with their Fanatical Purifier non-Hive Mind variant, and a new government type and AI personality was created for Devouring Swarms that you encounter while exploring the galaxy. They also have a few new flavor texts and unique interactions.

Assimilation
Finally, we've improved the process of assimilating non-Hive Minded Pops into the Hive. Instead of having to genetically modify the project (and complete said project before the Pops are eaten or forced out), Hive Minds now have access to a new type of citizenship species right, that is unlocked once they unlock the Evolutionary Mastery ascension perk. This citizenship type, called 'Assimilation', will convert non-Hive-Minded Pops into a Hive-Minded variant of that species, allowing them to be integrated seamlessly into your Hive Mind empire. The process is gradual, with a certain number of Pops converted at regular intervals rather than all being modified at the same time. Non-Hive Minded Pops will of course be quite upset by this, selfishly holding on to their individuality rather than simply surrendering to the glory of the collective. This new method of assimilation was also made available to Synthetic empires, and can be used to convert Pops to cyborgs (if partway through Synthetic Ascension) or upload them into robot bodies (if fully Synthetically Ascended). It can also be used to by non-Hive Mind empires that have unlocked Evolutionary Mastery to de-assimilate Hive-Minded Pops.

Tradition Swapping
Another issue both gameplay and narrative-wise that affects Hive Minds, but is not unique to them, is that certain traditions simply do not fit certain kinds of empires. When creating the tradition trees, we tried to keep them as broad as possible, but ultimately you're never going to be able to design seven full trees that fit perfectly into every possible society and playstyle. It's for this reason that we have created a new system that we call 'Tradition Swapping'. Tradition Swapping allows any Tradition Category (such as Diplomacy) or individual Tradition (such as Trans-Stellar Corporations) to be set up with a number of potential 'swaps'. These swaps have conditions and weights for each individual empire, and can be anything from a simple name and description swap to a full replacement of name, description, icon and effects. A number of such tradition swaps have been created for empires with specific playstyle, such as Hive Minds and Fanatical Purifiers. For example, Hive Minds have replaced 'Trans-Stellar Corporations' (Private Colony Ships make very little sense in a Hive Mind...) with Warrior Forms, a tradition that reduces army upkeep. They also have the entire Diplomacy tree replaced with Adaptability, a new tree focused on growth, habitability and genetics.

Though Tradition swaps may appear to be completely different from what they are replacing, they still occupy the same 'slot'. This means that the system is able to easily handle any change in the empire that would affect the tradition trees - if a Fanatic Purifier has the Purity tree (replacing the Domination tree) filled out and stop being Fanatical Purifiers, they will not lose their unlocked traditions and ascension perks, instead they are simply swapped for whatever variant of the same slots are valid for the empire - in this case reverting the Purity tree back to being Domination. While this may seem slightly strange, we felt it is nonetheless the preferrable way of handing such switches, as all sorts of issues would arise from simply yanking a number of unlocked traditions from empires that could no longer fulfill the conditions for them. By keeping the system as robust and dynamic as possible, it allows us to make far more adjustments to individual traditions for different playstyles than would be otherwise possible. The Tradition Swapping system is, of course, fully accessible to modders.

That's all for today! Next week we'll be talking about voices. Or hearing voices? At any rate, voices will be involved for sure, so stay tuned!

 

[Ikael]

I really wonder how factions will react with the new assimilation mechanic.

Hiveminds assimilating non-hive pops: Everyone recoils in horror (yet they will be less horrified than if you would have opted for eating or turning them into cattle). However, other fellow hiveminds will think that you're cool, offering these non-hivemind creatures the great opportunity of becoming a part of a greater whole. What a generous offer! In short, this should be great for hivemind diplomacy, and not so great for non-hivemind diplomacy.

Regular species assimilating hive-pops: Egalitarians would be pleased to see you liberating other sentient beings from the yoke of the hivemind, and spiritualists will be glad to offer these creatures a proper soul, no less! Xenophobes will obviously get angry to see hivemind pops surviving rather than getting anhilated outright. But surprisingly enough, fanatic xenophiles will get angry too: By assimilating hivemind pops you're destroying the galaxy's diversity of mind! Hivemind pops should be living within your empire without getting assimilated (according to them). This will pose some really interesting political challenges for xenophile empires that need to fight against hiveminds.

Ascended synth empires assimilating non-cybernetic pops: Spiritualists will predictably be angry, but Egalitarians should be against this idea too. I mean, you're, afterall, forcing a very costly medical procedure into the entire popullation, no matter if they want it or not. Perhaps there should be a "voluntary assimilation" option that would be slower yet more palatable for these two factions.

 

[CrowScape]

Hiveminds assimilating non-hive pops: Everyone recoils in horror (yet they will be less horrified than if you would have opted for eating or turning them into cattle). However, other fellow hiveminds will think that you're cool, offering these non-hivemind creatures the great opportunity of becoming a part of a greater whole. What a generous offer! In short, this should be great for hivemind diplomacy, and not so great for non-hivemind diplomacy.

Foolish hivemind #1. It now mistakes food for itself. Clearly, this hivemind is diseased and must be purged before it infects the others.

I don't see why a hivemind that doesn't integrate non-hivemind pops would have a better opinion of one that does. Seems like this would represent a serious philosophical gap.

Regular species assimilating hive-pops: Egalitarians would be pleased to see you liberating other sentient beings from the yoke of the hivemind

Why? Egalitarians are about equality, not individuality. They're just as likely to volunteer to join the collective.

 

[Ikael]

Foolish hivemind #1. It now mistakes food for itself. Clearly, this hivemind is diseased and must be purged before it infects the others.

Well, devouring swarms such as Hivemind # 2 would surely think that way "regular" hiveminds will, however, will likely feel either neutral or good about the prospect of xenos having a proper mind.

Why? Egalitarians are about equality, not individuality. They're just as likely to volunteer to join the collective.

I really doubt that democratic ideas sits well with the concept of a hivemind. It is pretty much the antithesis of democracy, really. Also, it would make for some damn fine Starship Troopers roleplaying : 3

 

[Hertzila]

Hiveminds assimilating non-hive pops: Everyone recoils in horror (yet they will be less horrified than if you would have opted for eating or turning them into cattle). However, other fellow hiveminds will think that you're cool, offering these non-hivemind creatures the great opportunity of becoming a part of a greater whole. What a generous offer! In short, this should be great for hivemind diplomacy, and not so great for non-hivemind diplomacy.

While I can see other empires be weirded out by assimilation, I doubt it would affect the diplomatic relations much, if at all. You're not abusing them or killing them after all, or even forcibly moving them, and the only way to live in a Hive Mind empire is as a part of it, so what choices would there be? Xenophobes might hate it even more, but they already hate you, so who cares about them?
I also don't think other Hive Minds would care about others assimilating POPs. Well, the Devouring Swarm might object, but they hate everyone, so who cares about them?

Regular species assimilating hive-pops: Egalitarians would be pleased to see you liberating other sentient beings from the yoke of the hivemind, and spiritualists will be glad to offer these creatures a proper soul, no less! Xenophobes will obviously get angry to see hivemind pops surviving rather than getting anhilated outright. But surprisingly enough, fanatic xenophiles will get angry too: By assimilating hivemind pops you're destroying the galaxy's diversity of mind! Hivemind pops should be living within your empire without getting assimilated (according to them). This will pose some really interesting political challenges for xenophile empires that need to fight against hiveminds.

While I can see the idea of egalitarians being pleased about drones getting their individuality back, I don't think it would really affect their opinion. Again, it's not so much a gift as it is a necessity. The drones were all equal before as part of the mind too. How much more equal could they be?
Spiritualists I can also see, but again, I'd argue they'd see it as a necessity of "cutting the connection to the old soul and granting them a new one" rather than as a good thing. You are robbing their great soul from them after all. Nothing to be happy about there.
Xenophiles would be the same. Sure, it might not be good, but it's a hell of a lot better than just letting them die. There's no diversity in death, after all.
Xenophobes already hate everything new and strange, so who cares about them?

Ascended synth empires assimilating non-cybernetic pops: Spiritualists will predictably be angry, but Egalitarians should be against this idea too. I mean, you're, afterall, forcing a very costly medical procedure into the entire popullation, no matter if they want it or not. Perhaps there should be a "voluntary assimilation" option that would be slower yet more palatable for these two factions.

Spiritualists would be livid, but I'd argue that egalitarians would be relieved. There's no equality like being equally capable, after all.
As for forcing everybody to go through with the procedure, well, who said anything about forcing people to undergo it? Maybe the state sponsors the entire cost of the procedure for all who want it and have spent a lot of resources to ad campaigns and propaganda videos showing how great the procedure is and most people have went through with it? Or maybe it's like vaccinations are today, legally mandated to keep the public health in good order. A few might not, but in the scales of POPs, not enough to matter, so who cares about them?

I really doubt that democratic ideas sits well with the concept of a hivemind. It is pretty much the antithesis of democracy, really. Also, it would make for some damn fine Starship Troopers roleplaying : 3

Subconscious Consensus would like to have a word to the contrary. Gestalt Consciousness and Subconscious Consensus (direct democracy at the speed of thought) are close to each other conceptually and would be best buddies. A Hive Mind is composed of all drones after all, not by a single "queen" as the head. Hive Mind drones are also extremely equal with one another, so egalitarians have little to complain about.

Starship Troopers would be either Xenophobes or Democratic Crusaders anyway, and both hate Hive Minds. Which I would call illogical in the latter case, but why let a little logic get in the way of a good crusade?

 

[CrowScape]

Well, devouring swarms such as Hivemind # 2 would surely think that way "regular" hiveminds will, however, will likely feel either neutral or good about the prospect of xenos having a proper mind.

Well, there we go: bad, neutral, or good. There is nothing about hiveminds that would lead them to have an intrinsic like of the idea.

But, it is fair for hiveminds with similar policies to gain a diplomacy bonus towards each other, and those with the antithesis a penalty.

I really doubt that democratic ideas sits well with the concept of a hivemind. It is pretty much the antithesis of democracy, really. Also, it would make for some damn fine Starship Troopers roleplaying : 3

Again, you're mistaking egalitarianism for something it is not. True, democracy is generally a tool of egalitarianism (emphasis on "generally;" many who have preached egalitarianism have found democracy tiring and disposed of it in the past), but it is not an end. A hivemind completely obviates the need for it.

 

[PirateJack]

While I can see other empires be weirded out by assimilation, I doubt it would affect the diplomatic relations much, if at all. You're not abusing them or killing them after all, or even forcibly moving them, and the only way to live in a Hive Mind empire is as a part of it, so what choices would there be? Xenophobes might hate it even more, but they already hate you, so who cares about them?

I don't know about you, but I'd be much more wary of the species that can take away the parts of me that make me me than the ones that just want to eat or kill me. It's like the difference between murder, cancer and Alzheimer's. All are bad, but the latter is a special kind of wrong.

 

[Hertzila]

I don't know about you, but I'd be much more wary of the species that can take away the parts of me that make me me than the ones that just want to eat or kill me.

Sure, but which of the options is the least bad? You are correct that being assimilated into a hive mind would probably not be nice, but diplomatically speaking, I'd argue assimilation is the least damning procedure, or at least tied with displacement purge. Livestock and being processed are utterly horrifying and may potentially speak of outward ambitions, while displacement is still a massive refugee flood to other empires. Assimilation would be the least damning from the perspective of other empires.

 

[Ikael]

While I can see other empires be weirded out by assimilation, I doubt it would affect the diplomatic relations much, if at all. You're not abusing them or killing them after all, or even forcibly moving them, and the only way to live in a Hive Mind empire is as a part of it, so what choices would there be?

Thing is, there seems to be new different types of hivemind (gestalt consciousness, cibernetic thingie). If the default option on them is to let non-hive pops live inside your empire while being unproductive, there might be room for putting assimilation on a morally grey area, so to speak, which is something that would make them quite interesting, me thinks.

Spiritualists I can also see, but again, I'd argue they'd see it as a necessity of "cutting the connection to the old soul and granting them a new one" rather than as a good thing. You are robbing their great soul from them after all. Nothing to be happy about there.

Hmmm not sure about that really. I mean, the hivemind is a quite physical, biology based entity, but since the developers mentioned that there will be more emphasis on their psiconic nature, I am not so sure about it now.

Spiritualists would be livid, but I'd argue that egalitarians would be relieved. There's no equality like being equally capable, after all. As for forcing everybody to go through with the procedure, well, who said anything about forcing people to undergo it? Maybe the state sponsors the entire cost of the procedure for all who want it and have spent a lot of resources to ad campaigns and propaganda videos showing how great the procedure is and most people have went through with it? Or maybe it's like vaccinations are today, legally mandated to keep the public health in good order. A few might not, but in the scales of POPs, not enough to matter, so who cares about them?

That's the thing, I really wonder about what the exact process of "cibernetic assimilation" really is. From the name of it, I assumed that it would be some kind of borg-like tpe of assimilation and thus, a quite autoritarian process.

Subconscious Consensus would like to have a word to the contrary. Gestalt Consciousness and Subconscious Consensus (direct democracy at the speed of thought) are close to each other conceptually and would be best buddies. A Hive Mind is composed of all drones after all, not by a single "queen" as the head. Hive Mind drones are also extremely equal with one another, so egalitarians have little to complain about.

I was refearing to "regular" hiveminds. Still, I am mightily intrigued about what the exact mechanics and definitions will be for gestalt consciousness and the cibernetic-hivemind are. But a regular hivemind a la ant colony is pretty much the embodiment of anti egalitarianism, and was in fact used many times in science fiction in order to represent autoritarian regimes or be something akin to "space communism" (right or wrong as that last metaphor is).

Starship Troopers would be either Xenophobes or Democratic Crusaders anyway, and both hate Hive Minds. Which I would call illogical in the latter case, but why let a little logic get in the way of a good crusade?

According to the game, they are a combo of egalitarians + militarists ("citizen service" civic). Gotta stomp those damm bugs!

 

[Alex_brunius]

While I can see other empires be weirded out by assimilation, I doubt it would affect the diplomatic relations much, if at all. You're not abusing them or killing them after all, or even forcibly moving them, and the only way to live in a Hive Mind empire is as a part of it, so what choices would there be? Xenophobes might hate it even more, but they already hate you, so who cares about them?

The pops probably didn't migrate peacefully and decided that they suddenly wanted to be assembled though, right?

This means assimilation is basically a form of kidnapping people against their will, to serve their enemies, likely following a conquest of their home planet...

Don't you think doing this would affect diplomatic relations negatively?

 

[henryk5pio]

Hi Wiz, I have one question, can you added to game preview border range Outposts, before building? Please, because it would be good to know before we build in what stars we will be in range.

 

[perost]

Hi Wiz, I have one question, can you added to game preview border range Outposts, before building? Please, because it would be good to know before we build in what stars we will be in range.

The current algorithm for calculating borders is simply too slow to implement this currently. You've probably noticed that it usually takes a while for the borders to change after building e.g. a frontier outpost. They talked about it a bit during the design corner stream (starting ~19min in), and they will probably rework the whole system some time in the future.

 

[henryk5pio]

The current algorithm for calculating borders is simply too slow to implement this currently. You've probably noticed that it usually takes a while for the borders to change after building e.g. a frontier outpost. They talked about it a bit during the design corner stream (starting ~19min in), and they will probably rework the whole system some time in the future.

Ok, thank you for information

 

[ashbery76]

That bug picture is what one considers as a Hive race but in the game we can get a fox looking like a Hive race.I feel species should be unique along with traits.

 

[Hertzila]

Thing is, there seems to be new different types of hivemind (gestalt consciousness, cibernetic thingie). If the default option on them is to let non-hive pops live inside your empire while being unproductive, there might be room for putting assimilation on a morally grey area, so to speak, which is something that would make them quite interesting, me thinks.

IF that were the case, possibly. However, the devs have repeatedly indicated that that will not be the case. Ordinary POPs get either purged, livestocked or assimilated. So either displacement or assimilation would be the least diplomatically problematic option, in my opinion.

Hmmm not sure about that really. I mean, the hivemind is a quite physical, biology based entity, but since the developers mentioned that there will be more emphasis on their psiconic nature, I am not so sure about it now.

While the Hive Mind is only capable of biological ascension, the Mind part has always been a mixture of the biologcial POPs and a psychic Mind connecting them all (also potentially being partially subspace-based). It's just incapable of psychic ascension since the Mind would get destroyed by the procedure.

Don't mistake the Stellaris Hive Mind with the stereotypical anthill societies most sci-fi hive minds or "hive minds" have. There may be similarities, but there are also massive departures.

That's the thing, I really wonder about what the exact process of "cibernetic assimilation" really is. From the name of it, I assumed that it would be some kind of borg-like tpe of assimilation and thus, a quite autoritarian process.

The name is quite scary, but the devs seem to let the players RP it as they want. There's quite a range of things that would still effectively convert all your POPs into synths, from full-on Cybermen style to government-sponsored heavily advertized uploading.

I was refearing to "regular" hiveminds. Still, I am mightily intrigued about what the exact mechanics and definitions will be for gestalt consciousness and the cibernetic-hivemind are. But a regular hivemind a la ant colony is pretty much the embodiment of anti egalitarianism, and was in fact used many times in science fiction in order to represent autoritarian regimes or be something akin to "space communism" (right or wrong as that last metaphor is).

Hive Minds are Gestalt Consciousness' as well, so it applies to both.

Stellaris Hive Minds really don't seem like ant colonies. At least, not in the sense it's generally used. There is no single queen that leads and rules over everyone without anyone being capable of saying no. Instead everyone forms a single mind and that mind treats all the population as we would different organs and limbs. Alien and potentially scary, sure. But in a sense, the best embodiment of egaliatarianism AND authoritarianism in one fell swoop!

The pops probably didn't migrate peacefully and decided that they suddenly wanted to be assembled though, right?

This means assimilation is basically a form of kidnapping people against their will, to serve their enemies, likely following a conquest of their home planet...

Don't you think doing this would affect diplomatic relations negatively?

The POPs might not have migrated peacefully, but neither do they when other empires conquer planets and enslave them or subject them to their alien laws. The Hive Minds at least have the excuse that the POPs literally cannot survive there without being assimilated. Diplomatically, I'd argue most empires wouldn't care much about them, as long as the Hive Mind doesn't come knocking into their territory.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

I agree with your overall point that a hive mind is unlikely to be good at diplomacy, but I think you're overstating it here. Presumably any hive mind that reaches the space age must at some point have decided that other life had value, or else it would have destroyed its native ecosystem too early. Now whether this realisation is that other life had intrinsic value or just that it had value to the hive mind matters less than the fact that it in any event doesn't seem inconceivable that the hive mind would invest energy into caring for and understanding other high life forms on their planet.

That said, I think the point still stands that other species probably would not appreciate diplomacy that is based on the hive mind's experiments with understanding their equivalents of chimps and dolphins and crows.

I think you're understating it a little. We vaguely understand and empathize with chimps and dolphins and crows because they're vaguely similar to us. And we understand cows and dogs even better, because of their connection to us.

If we farmed and ate ants, we'd care about them as a resource and our livelihood as well. And we'd understand how they act, the mechanics of it. But I doubt we'd ever care about how humanely they're raised or killed, or even comprehend that they may have feelings. Our empathy doesn't extend that far.

A hive mind did not grow up on a world with stupider hive minds, some of which it bred to be subservient or tasty. That would be analogous to us and cows and dogs and chimps. It grew up raising and eating things that are to it as ants or bacteria are to us. Similar in size and mental capacity to individual parts of its body.

Like I said, the only thing that could prepare it to understand that these little things even have feelings or value comparable to its own is if it remembers, somehow, the time when its own cells did. And then the problem would be that it has no practice or experience interacting with anything, at all, ever.

But it might not have that understanding at all. And the thing is, if ants started shooting lasers at us, we'd probably figure out pretty quickly how to talk with them. But, that's only because we'd just place them in our mind in the "things worth talking to" category. We'd start to care about their feelings, but only because we'd add them to our "things with feelings" category. That hive mind wouldn't even have such a categories in its head.

How do you define not being useful? Does it have to be detrimental, or just a neutral variety of a trait? (And what about traits that are sexual selected for despite not offering any benefits in terms of health/survival/acquiring food?)

Blond hair/blue eyes potentially fits the bill. It is still not sure how or if those traits are useful. (Although it is speculated that it was sexually selected for or is closely related to skin colour mutations.) I would personally add straight hair/wavy hair hair to that list - cannot see how either trait is more useful than the other.

Menstruation may be another one. Very few species does it, and it is apparently more taxing than reabsorption.

More generally, I imagine that the founder's effect probably does make traits common in certain populations despite never being useful. Its pretty hard to prove that any given trait/variety is useless in all circumstances though.

Hmm, the traits (in us and other species) that appear to be based completely on sexual selection are a good candidate.

But, like you said, if those mutations were originally linked to other beneficial traits, that explains it.

Like, the peacocks tail is a sign that it is strong and healthy. Because a peacock with any genetic imperfections wouldn't survive to have such a big tail. And it's actually true! The offspring of larger tailed peacocks is actually much healthier. The tail itself is a huge inconvenience and liability, but the healthy traits it's linked too are so beneficial that (at least in the time before it became as big as it is now) they cancelled out that detriment.

So, if blond hair and blue eyes was linked with the light skin that allowed humans to not all die of rickets at higher latitudes, that explains how they survived and spread.

Edit: I think a good indication of how difficult it would be for a hive mind to understand anything that is "other", is how much difficulty there is in this thread to conceive of a hive mind being wholly inhuman in its thoughts and emotions. You just humanized the hive mind by saying it would tend to other life on its planet the same way we would. But why would it be the same? It's not human.

It's our instinct to humanize the things we interact with. Because the most important things we interact with are human.

A hive mind doesn't, and has never, interacted with anything above the "ants and bacteria" level. It has never interacted with something like itself, so it wouldn't "itselfize" the other things it interacts with. And imagining it would... Is just our instinctual humanization showing through.

Everybody talking about how hive mind 2 might be happy to see hive mind 1 giving other life an opportunity to join the collective? Or show disdain over how it treats prey or lesser beings? Why? Hive mind 1 is the other, and that biomass its integrating is just food with guns, and it has figured out a way to integrate biomass more quickly than digesting it. Imagine if you met another person (the first other person you've ever met) who doesn't eat food, but just puts it on it's skin and it becomes part of them. That is what is happening from the hive mind perspective.

 

[youstas]

I have doubts about assimilation. Maybe better will be made a special assimilation civic. And devouring swarm and assimilation civic exclude each other. Assimilation to reflect Borg-style hive minds and devouring swarm to reflect Zerg/tyranid/these-starshiptrooper-bugs style hive minds. Yes, I know, balance, playability and so on but for me it's difficult to image assimilation in Tyrand Hive Mind

 

[JoeKerr_42]

I've never started a war against a hive mind but is it possible to liberate them? And if so, what happen?

 

[runrun]

I think you're understating it a little. We vaguely understand and empathize with chimps and dolphins and crows because they're vaguely similar to us. And we understand cows and dogs even better, because of their connection to us.

If we farmed and ate ants, we'd care about them as a resource and our livelihood as well. And we'd understand how they act, the mechanics of it. But I doubt we'd ever care about how humanely they're raised or killed, or even comprehend that they may have feelings. Our empathy doesn't extend that far.

A hive mind did not grow up on a world with stupider hive minds, some of which it bred to be subservient or tasty. That would be analogous to us and cows and dogs and chimps. It grew up raising and eating things that are to it as ants or bacteria are to us. Similar in size and mental capacity to individual parts of its body.

Like I said, the only thing that could prepare it to understand that these little things even have feelings or value comparable to its own is if it remembers, somehow, the time when its own cells did. And then the problem would be that it has no practice or experience interacting with anything, at all, ever.

But it might not have that understanding at all. And the thing is, if ants started shooting lasers at us, we'd probably figure out pretty quickly how to talk with them. But, that's only because we'd just place them in our mind in the "things worth talking to" category. We'd start to care about their feelings, but only because we'd add them to our "things with feelings" category. That hive mind wouldn't even have such a categories in its head.



Hmm, the traits (in us and other species) that appear to be based completely on sexual selection are a good candidate.

But, like you said, if those mutations were originally linked to other beneficial traits, that explains it.

Like, the peacocks tail is a sign that it is strong and healthy. Because a peacock with any genetic imperfections wouldn't survive to have such a big tail. And it's actually true! The offspring of larger tailed peacocks is actually much healthier. The tail itself is a huge inconvenience and liability, but the healthy traits it's linked too are so beneficial that (at least in the time before it became as big as it is now) they cancelled out that detriment.

So, if blond hair and blue eyes was linked with the light skin that allowed humans to not all die of rickets at higher latitudes, that explains how they survived and spread.

Edit: I think a good indication of how difficult it would be for a hive mind to understand anything that is "other", is how much difficulty there is in this thread to conceive of a hive mind being wholly inhuman in its thoughts and emotions. You just humanized the hive mind by saying it would tend to other life on its planet the same way we would. But why would it be the same? It's not human.

It's our instinct to humanize the things we interact with. Because the most important things we interact with are human.

A hive mind doesn't, and has never, interacted with anything above the "ants and bacteria" level. It has never interacted with something like itself, so it wouldn't "itselfize" the other things it interacts with. And imagining it would... Is just our instinctual humanization showing through.

Everybody talking about how hive mind 2 might be happy to see hive mind 1 giving other life an opportunity to join the collective? Or show disdain over how it treats prey or lesser beings? Why? Hive mind 1 is the other, and that biomass its integrating is just food with guns, and it has figured out a way to integrate biomass more quickly than digesting it. Imagine if you met another person (the first other person you've ever met) who doesn't eat food, but just puts it on it's skin and it becomes part of them. That is what is happening from the hive mind perspective.

In the same way as you notice our tendency to transpose our humanity on animal behavior, you tend to forget the different cultures we have.
Some cultures care about other species than ours as well as our own species. As for example Buddhism with its principle of ahimsa (Strive not to harm living beings or take life).
And there are many others. Do you know what is to be vegan?

On the one hand what you don t take into account in your reasoning about the relationship that the hive mind has with other. The faculty of communicating like a hive-mind is very certainly as you have been able to demonstrate, the latter sense that this species will have been able to get. This means that for millions of years, each "drone" that composes this species has lived autonomously.

On the other hand, since the evolution is not something fixed, the acquisition of this capacity may very well have occurred very shortly before this species discovered the space flight.
See even this ability have been obtained by way of science with genetic modification.
Which will go in the sense of the game since the hive mind has only the genetic modification as path of the ascension.

That is why, that according to the roleplay I wish to establish, all the cases is possible.

 

[Shadow Rose]

Do you think you'll ever add a machine version of hive minded stuff? Like I robot where the main computer controls all the robots and so on. It would fit into hive minded ideas fairly well although a few things might need to be renamed.

 

[TheAtreides84]

Cattle also does not cull and process itself. Obviously on any cattle tile, we must assume that there are members of some other species processing the cattle.

Or, of the same... which would be even more creepy.