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Stellaris Dev Diary #85: Decadence and Ascension Path Changes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is the last dev diary for the 1.8 'Čapek' update, and will be going over the introduction of Awakened Empire Decadence and some changes coming to the three Ascension Paths and Megastructures. Decadence is a free feature in the 1.8 update, while the Ascension Path and Megastructure changes require the Utopia expansion.

Awakened Empire Decadence
Awakened Empires were added to the game as a way of throwing a new challenge at the player in the late-game. They are intended to be formidable foes, and only the absolutely most powerful player empires are meant to be able to take them on alone. However, this could lead to an unintended game state where the Awakened Empire had conquered or subjugated all regular empires and effectively 'won', with the player being stuck as an AE subject until the end of time. In order to address this, we've added a new mechanic called Decadence for Awakened Empires. Decadence is effectively a meter, going from 0 to 100, that starts filling up for Awakened Empires once a certain amount of time has passed since awakening. The larger they are (both in terms of owned planets and subjugated empires), the faster it builds up. Decadence reduces Awakened Empire resource income and fleet power, and also increases the rebelliousness of their subjects, and has very large penalties at high levels of Decadence. What this means it that while an Awakened Empire might start very strong, and grow even stronger as they expand, that very expansion will eventually turn into decline, until they're weakened to the point where the rest of the galaxy can rebel and overthrow them - if you end up their subject, you just have to be patient, build up your forces, and wait for the right moment to take back your freedom. Awakened Empires have also been changed so that they prefer to subjugate other empires (though still taking some planets as well) to conquering them outright, so there should always be a collection of subjects chafing under the precursor yoke and biding their time.
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Ascension Path Changes
One of the most loved features in Utopia is the Ascension Paths - the ability to choose an 'end goal' for your empire and species in the form of Psionic, Synthetic or Biological Ascension. However, the decision to restrict the Psionic and Synthetic paths based on ethics was less popular, and though I think the reasoning for it is sound (making ethics more diverse), this is a case where I think there is a valid case to say that balance should take a step back in favor of letting the player decide the path or their own empire. For this reason, we've lifted the Spiritualist-only restriction on psionics and have opened up for Spiritualists to research robotics and synthetically ascend. We have also removed the Materialist-only restriction on AI Citizen Rights.

To compensate for this loss, Spiritualists have received a buff in the form of stronger Temples, and Materialists have been given a new living standard called 'Academic Privilege' that boosts happiness and research output at the cost of more consumer goods. However, though we've lifted the hard restriction, the impact of the ascension paths on ethics attraction and faction happiness remain. This means that, for example, a Spiritualist empire that decides to Synthetically Ascend will have significant troubles with unhappy factions and materialist ethics drift, and similarly, the pursuit of Psionics will cause increased Spiritualist attraction and the likely creation of a strong Spiritualist faction.

In addition to these more general changes, there's a few more path-specific changes and additions:
Psionic: Buffed traits and Psi Corps building, and added an alert to tell you when the Shroud is ready for use. Additionally, psionically awakening other species in your empire now happens more often.
Synthetic: Added the ability to assimilate new biological pops into synthetic bodies, and the addition of robomodding significantly buffs this path. Synthetic and Cyborg leader traits were nerfed a bit to compensate.
Biological: Increased the total trait points by 1, and reduced the cost of advanced traits such as Robust.
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Megastructure Changes
The headline feature of Utopia was the Megastructures, massive constructions requiring tens of thousands of minerals and decades to construct. A frequent criticism we have received for the Megastructures is that they simply do not feel significant enough, with comments on how the Dyson Sphere should realistically be producing millions of energy, and so on. We've made some changes in 1.8 that we hope will address some of these complaints, though I want to preface this by saying that Megastructures are not and will never be 'realistic', nor is Stellaris meant to be a realistic game in the first place. However, they are meant to feel impressive and special, and when a handful of Habitats with solar power processors can match a Dyson Sphere in output, that impressiveness tends to fade, no matter whether it's actually balanced or not.

For this reason, we have decided to make a change to the Dyson Sphere and Science Nexus. Both of these Megastructures have been majorly buffed, with a finished Dyson Sphere now producing 1000 energy and a fully upgraded Science Nexus outputting a total of ~750 science. However, they have been changed so that each empire can now only build one of each, similar to the Sentry Array. This means that they can be very powerful without having to massively increase the build time or cost to prevent them from simply being spammed. Ringworlds have not been changed, and can be built in any number you want, indirectly buffing the effectiveness of the Circle of Life perk.

Additionally, we've made a tweak to the Master Builders perk. This perk, when taken, will now give you the Mega-Engineering technology if you do not already have it, similar to how World Shaper gives Atmospheric Manipulation and Mastery of Nature gives blocker techs. This allows for reliable access to Mega-Engineering for empires that want to focus on Megastructure construction.
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That's all for today! Next week we'll post the full patch notes for 1.8 and Synthetic Dawn. See you then!
 
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That's not how it works. Buddhism is a deeply spiritualist way of life but still centered around the idea that personal identity is just an aggregate of impressions and accidents without intrinsic reality. On the other hand there are lots of parapsychologists who are materialists. They just happen to think that psi is a provable natural phenomenon (which, as far as the game goes, actually is).

Provable natural phenomenon != Material phenomenon.
Materialism- the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

If there is anything to the universe other than good ol' matter and energy, then that universe is non-material.

In USSR psi-powers was intensively researched, and USSR was strongly anti-religious party. Did they seek something spiritual? I would say psi-powers are from bio-engineering brunch, not from spiritual. In Azimovs first psychic was a robot, later it was non-religious spiritual oligarchy. Hiveminds should be psychics from the get go, it's their main perk. Also Prethoryns are psychics, too, nothing spiritual about that.

This is where we get into the reality stellaris trying to be a hodge podge but it can't.
You can't have jedi(spiritual psionics) alongside bio-psionics.

I was thinking in the same way, but about xenophobia/filia. I think civics should be more significant.

I do too, but the game is already cut into too many chunks to really do that.

Also it would put the end to xenophobe-pacifistic nonsense.

Plenty of isolationist groups, people and even states throughout history.
 
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Provable natural phenomenon != Material phenomenon.
What? How does it work? I'm pretty sure whatever can be proven and reproduced automatically becomes material. It's almost like "materialists can't use warp technology". If other dimensions can't be seen, then they're not real.
 
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Provable natural phenomenon != Material phenomenon.
Materialism- the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

Well, even theosophic spiritualism is a materialist philosophy because it postulates an etheric body as source of the phenomena. It's just a different kind of matter. Do not fall for the common error of pseudo-skeptics which conflate "materialist" with "scientific" or even "true". To really qualify as non-materialist in the widest sense you must postulate some entity or force transcending reality, a.k.a. God. Not even hellenistic gods qualify.
 
Your average evidence: In USSR psi-powers was intensively researched, and USSR was strongly anti-religious party. Did they seek something spiritual? I would say psi-powers are from bio-engineering brunch, not from spiritual. In Azimovs first psychic was a robot, later it was non-religious spiritual oligarchy. Hiveminds should be psychics from the get go, it's their main perk. Also Prethoryns are psychics, too, nothing spiritual about that.

Yes i agree. Psionism is not always tied to spiritualism (darth vader was heavily cybernetic and use force. In mass effect humans use neural implants for help them to use biotic etc...) but the second level of psionism, like it is in the game is actually heavily spiritualist or mystical. I mean shroud is basically astral plan and all of your pops are connected each other with telepathy, leaders are immortal etc...

Level 2 ascension will drastically attract your empire to an ethos, which is fine. But that's another reason why i think that you should be able to choose 2 level 1 of ascension instead of a level 2 ascension. (like cyborg/gene= space marines for exemple or cyborg/latent psionism). This would allow you to have more options for customize your empire but it would allow you to control more easily the ethos drift too. (For exemple a level 1 of psionism which unlock latent psionism would attract pops to spiritualist ethos but far less than the level 2 when you clearly leave the material plan etc...). That would allow you to be heavily cybernetic, have some leaders psionic and still materialist, coz, like your said, psionism (or at last the first level of it) still explicable by science.
 
It's too late to matter for this update but it seems to me that the nexus' have a built-in advantage, they can make up for all the laboratories you have on the ground. It seems to me that the issue is that science is flat rate and thus 'moar is better'. Sure, that's kind of okay I guess but something like software inc has diminishing returns as you assign more workers to a task. It could be that technology has some upper limit on how much science can be allocated to it each turn, and anything over that is reduced. Therefore more science would be better but you can sidestep that building 10 science nexus' would give you 750% research speed. Or, and I've long advocated for this: give us the ability to research whatever in our three slots but perhaps some technologies dip from more than one pool. Perhaps unused science could contribute at a lower rate encouraging diversity but allowing focus if you want to go all out on engineering.

Then something like a science nexus can be used to sort of displace all the laboratories you built on the ground and free up for other uses. Who knows, maybe there are bonuses to happiness on planets that don't have every square inch covered in metropolises, or you can replace industrial buildings with leisure and entertainment. There's all these really cool things that I'm guessing might end up being done one day, but for now this feels like a stopgap measure where you recognize they aren't super awesome but we have to wait until next patch comes around. I'm having flashbacks to the removal of the purge individual pops button and just hoping like that we'll see a nice halfway point one day.

I know that sounds complain-y but it's supposed to be discussion that was mixed with a bit more 'this again?' than I really intended. Sorry about that, there's always got to be a 'one step back' feature with every update and this seems like that one. The other stuff sounds quite good.
 
It's too late to matter for this update but it seems to me that the nexus' have a built-in advantage, they can make up for all the laboratories you have on the ground. It seems to me that the issue is that science is flat rate and thus 'moar is better'. Sure, that's kind of okay I guess but something like software inc has diminishing returns as you assign more workers to a task. It could be that technology has some upper limit on how much science can be allocated to it each turn, and anything over that is reduced. Therefore more science would be better but you can sidestep that building 10 science nexus' would give you 750% research speed.

Stellaris already does have a mechanic that does lead to diminishing returns and is one of the only reason to build nexuses. The more planets and population you have, the more science is required for each tech. The Nexus provides a way of producing science without increasing the science costs.
 
Stellaris already does have a mechanic that does lead to diminishing returns and is one of the only reason to build nexuses. The more planets and population you have, the more science is required for each tech. The Nexus provides a way of producing science without increasing the science costs.
There is also Consumer Goods - they become very costly as an empire starts to grow in size.

So depending on how large your empire is, a Science Nexus doesn't just equal 750 science plus some extra science speed, but also easily saves you an extra 50-100 M and 100 E per month, plus it has a positive effect on your unity cost.
 
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There's a little too much personal hostility flying around in this thread right now. I'm going to ask that everyone keep it civil or some moderation will occur.
 
Spiritualists just need something that is actually and exclusively spiritualist in nature. Personally, I'd love to see PDX add a system for tracking and expanding (or suppressing) religious beliefs to the game. It could allow for some interesting diplomatic effects (Space Pope? Butlerian Jihad?) on top of its role as part of a Spiritualist empire's identity. :)

Maaaaan that would be so insanely cool! I really would love to see each ethos getting its own unique mechanic. Religions for spiritualists, ambassadors for xenophiles, superweapons for militarists, unique techs for materialists... there are lots of great options left to explore regarding ethoi differenciation.

I feel like this is really a matter of perception. To me, the names and descriptions of the Civics alone add a lot more to an empire's identity than the actual percentage bonus. The latter is just a number that helps represent something, but by itself it doesn't tickle my imagination. The description does. It adds to the puzzle that is my overall image of an entire culture. :)

Paradox have some of the best writers in the industry, and they don't even make RPGs! Good stuff indeed. But if the description is not paired with an equally flavourful / powerful bonus, it seems lacking to me.

But perhaps rather than increasing the bonuses, there should be more Ethos-specific events and choices that pop up only for qualifying empires? There's already a few of them in the game (the heretic cult springs to mind), but certainly this could be expanded upon, and I'm sure it could support and strengthen the player's idea of what their civilization should look and feel like. Have Militarists do more exercises on rival empires' borders. Have Authoritarians crack down on dissenters among the populace. Pogroms for Xenophobes. And so on. Ideally they could be tied to Civics rather than Ethos, but it would surely be a lot of work to come up with so many events ...

Oh, absolutely. Events and anomalies are this game's salt of the Earth. The more the merrier!

Apart from these things hopefully fitting much better to their respective Ethos, it would also be the difference between preventing something, and offering something in addition. The latter is, of course, much more palatable to all players.

Indeed, but it always baffles me to see that there are always players that sees an addition of an exclusive feature for one ethoi (say, the xenophobe's purge options) as some kind of unfair restriction for the rest of the ethos.

I personally think that since Stellaris revolves around how futuristic alien civilizations manages their respective societies, ethoi-exclusive civics are the way to go regarding differenciation. Make more civics depend on ethos (since the ideals of your society configure its governance system), and make said civics in the same mold of fanatic purifiers or agrarian idyl (tie special mechanics with huge bonuses and restrictions to them). Still, it seems that the game is advancing towards that direction, as the new and revamped Inwards Perfection seems to point.
 
Can the Dyson sphere limit be modified? I enjoy making the galaxy go dark.
 
Easy solution to the Dyson sphere and research nexus buff leading to a limit.

Efficiency issues.

You can build, repair, conquer, whatever as many nexuses and Dyson spheres as you want.

If you have more than one research nexus, they have issues with duplicate research and coordinating data. So, the first one gives 750 science. Every additional one gives... 270. Just like now. No problem anymore!

And, routing the power from one Dyson sphere into your power economy is doable. But more than that? It starts to get devalued, or wasted. So, the first is 1000. Every additional sphere is 200. Bam, no need for a limit anymore there, either!

Edit: also, plural of bonus is bonuses. Plural of nexus is nexuses or just nexus. Please stop with the nexi and boni, please! :p
 
A query regarding Decadence- will it at some point apply to both larger AI Empires and Player Empires? Something that, if one is careful, one could possibly manage in some form if that route occurs?

Could make late game interesting, especially if the ethics and goverment type effect things.
 
A query regarding Decadence- will it at some point apply to both larger AI Empires and Player Empires? Something that, if one is careful, one could possibly manage in some form if that route occurs?

Could make late game interesting, especially if the ethics and goverment type effect things.
Although I'll probably be modding this in anyways, I sincerely doubt it. The reason for decadence now I believe is due to Fallen Empires having a civic called "Ancient Caches of Technology", giving +50% minerals & +50% energy (in contrast, the normal civics give +10% energy IF you are an oligarchy OR +10% minerals as anyone, as two separate civics)

Additionally, Fallen Empires start with all technology researched (and thankfully them knowing dangerous tech doesn't affect the end-game crisis), so the entire game they're researching repeatable techs, potentially having massive stacks by the end of the game.

Normally this is balanced by them being far behind when they awaken, but at some point they'll be as big as a normal empire, except they still have all these multipliers, making them far more powerful than a normal empire of the same size.

Awakened Empires are portrayed as being a sudden late-game empire that's just as powerful as the other established superpowers, but they currently play a bit more as either "ROFL Stomp I win!" or they woke up too late and one normal empire/end-game crisis is getting too powerful for them to stop. The purpose of decadence is now when they're at the same size as a normal superpower, they'll be weakened to the point they're on par with said other empires rather than keeping their "catchup multipiers" the entire game.


Oh and I feel the need to repeat I'm just speculating. I'm not affiliated with Paradox.
 
Additionally, Fallen Empires start with all technology researched (and thankfully them knowing dangerous tech doesn't affect the end-game crisis), so the entire game they're researching repeatable techs, potentially having massive stacks by the end of the game.
Currently, FE/AEs dont research repeatables, all science points that they gain capturing planets with labs or being materialist and having sattelites are wasted.
I think that AEs should research repeatables in a future update.
 
Currently, FE/AEs dont research repeatables, all science points that they gain capturing planets with labs or being materialist and having sattelites are wasted.
I think that AEs should research repeatables in a future update.
Huh, I didn't know this. They used to research them since in an earlier version if you cheated and switched to them mid-game, they'd have a handful of repeatable techs. Must've been patched out. Good to know, for exploitable reasons of course.

The best reasons.