Stellaris Dev Diary #94 - Ascension Perks & Surveying in Cherryh

[LayZboy]

If empire A has the closed border status, is known by empire B who has traded comms with empire C which also has closed borders, does empire A get to waltz about empire C territory until empire C has made basic contact and they are no long "alpha aliens" with ? over their planets, but empire C cannot do the same to empire A because they shared comms?

 

[Seb_Jean]

YES - In fact this is arguably one of the most important things to know if you are going to have a successful game as not only do you get anomalies, these often stack with the anomalies the AI found. It adds a lot to the game and in encourages you not to survey their systems or trade maps or have other meaningful contact with small weak empires you want to conquer. Since there is almost no diplomacy/trade/etc. in the game yet, conquering folks and surveying systems is really the only thing to do for most of the game.

For me the current system about surveying, especially mid-game, was using the auto-Survey option and click Yes on anomalies. Not really the fun part.

 

[terrycloth]

Not too fussed about traditions becoming free for all thought they should be anyway. However he is right. Imagine if somebody bought a pizza for a couple GBP and the next person in line got the same pizza for free?

...six months later.

Really, I'd be more comfortable if they'd start making the older DLC part of the base game outright after a certain period of time so that you didn't end up with a huge backlog if you tried to get into the game late.

Also...

THOSE BORDERS. ARGH. Everyone screwing everyone else with stupid chokepoint shenanigans and chopping up the empires into little enclaves they can't reach with their fleets -- this is already why I hate hyperdrive and OH LOOK it's worse now!

 

[Roddo]

So anomalies are "lost" or already "surveyed" once a civ claims a system?

Can you claim systems without having surveyed all of it's planets/structures? Cause if you can, lots of possible annomalies can be lost that way.
AI is terrible at surveying, and it wouldn't be rare to get a system from war that wasn't properly surveyed.

What about progress in different special events that result from anomalies? Do they reset when a system switches hands in result from a war?

Also: Why would I want to trade for communications, knowing I'll get fewer systems to survey as a result? I could still traverse into a rival civ territory (still uncommunicated) and make some sneaky survey.

So many questions. I'm glad it's being checked.
The anomalies system was the most interesting thing in stellaris for me, and I always found it a little strange how it all worked. Having someone checking it again is bound to get these things wrinkled out.

 

[Centurian128]

Surveying & Communications Trading
The way surveying, anomaly generation and star chart trading works has never really worked very well. For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems. For this reason, we've decided to make some changes to the way surveying works. In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway. There are some exceptions to this, such as Fallen Empires, whose space will need to be surveyed manually and can in fact yield anomalies.

As part of this we have decided to remove Star Chart trading as well as the ability to buy Star Charts from Curators, and instead replace this with the option to trade Communications with another empire - acquiring Communications from an empire in a trade deal will automatically put you in comms with any empires they have comms with that you do not. This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back.

As to your cited example, that seems like something that should be in the tutorial as there have been quite a few players that admit to not knowing this, myself included. This change does not seem logical to me, or at the very least immersion breaking if the player thinks about it. Why would an empire, especially a xenophobic one as has been said, automatically give up it's in territory survey data to someone new?
And what about all that XP for your scientist that the player is giving up? Even if you can't find an anomaly there you can still get experience for your scientist to give a greater success chance for when you do find an anomaly.
You last sentence there seems to be contradictory to me. If that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back, why would you need to explore it if all in territory survey data was shared upon meeting?

Terra Incognita Changes
Finally, I just wanted to mentioned that we have done some changes to Terra Incognita to make it more clear and make it work properly with bypasses (Wormholes and Gateways). Instead of Terra Incognita being based on which physical pixels on the map your ships have 'seen', it is now based on which systems are considered visited. Visited either means that you have been to the system with a ship, or that the system is inside the borders of an empire that you have communications with. As such, Terra Incognita no longer needs to be manually lifted on empires you have met in order to not make them appear grey and washed out on the map, also making it easier to see important galactic features such as nebulas.
View attachment 313887

Umm, map mystery adds to the experience of exploration. That seems like you're removing a lot of that mystery. Also, I hope there are plans in place to remove those unclaimed spaces in the middle of that ring of connected systems all controlled by the same empire. I'd rather not have my territory look like swiss cheese.

I have a suggestion. Instead of removing Star Charts, rework them to simply remove the Terra Incognita between the trading Empires but leave out the survey data. This allows for sharing Galactic Terrain data without exposing your most profitable systems to someone you may be at war with in a couple years. Have the Survey Data as a separate trading option visible only after the TI removing Star Charts have been traded or selected to be traded. This way you have the option of keeping as much information hidden from your potential enemies as you want. Communications trade can be kept as a shortcut so that you don't have to spend potentially valuable research on identifying other civilizations. This also goes into a simple adding of Diplomacy options.

The Seen / Visited change I'd have more of a problem with if Warp and corvette scouting was being retained. With warp you can fly past a cluster of systems and get a quick scan of any potentially habitable planets that could be there. But with hyperlanes, those clusters won't be a thing anymore and without Warp there's no flying past anything. So, the binary visited / not visited is simpler from a programming standpoint, I guess.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[urogard]

In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway.

I haven't seen anyone write about this so I'm pointing it out now.

This is a bad idea on many levels because if those systems are surveyed, then you instantly know which strategic (and regular) resources are available in particular sectors.
That can be extremely critical information which I do not understand why other players should be simply GIVEN so easily.

 

[LeanneKaos]

For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems.

TBH I thought that was pretty obvious. But my grasp of what is obvious and what is unclear was always a little skewed.

I had cases where I had AI empire come in survey my planets and changed the deposit. Extremely rare but it indeed does happen.

The problem is I don't want them to do that so I usually just set border to close on first contact until I survey all of my solar systems.

From my understanding of the way borders and outposts work in Cherryh, you're not going to have unsurveyed systems in your border anymore: the outpost now only claims the system it's in, and afaik you still have to have surveyed the system to build the outpost. So that problem mostly goes away.

Unless you're forward settling to lock off territory and counting the blocked off systems as 'yours' before you've officially put a presence there. (But then if you're doing that, you probably want to close borders anyway just to ensure your block actually blocks.)

 

[Nighzmarquls]

My experience in multiplayer is that survey deposits are unique to each empire. I had a friend survey a system, I surveyed the system. We got different deposits and had different resources marked for those star systems.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

What amuses me most about that screenshot is that there are two empires with the same color. I get that the whole thick border thing is supposed to get that, but why in the world can't we get something where the AI doesn't reuse a color until all others have been picked?

 

[Zeelilus]

In regards to people saying DLC content becoming free is unfair...wot.

I bake a batch of cookies and sell them to someone for $2. They agree it's fair, they are happy with their purchase and the go live their life and enjoy the cookies.

Next week I bake someone else a batch of cookies and charge them $1. They agree this is fair, and they go live their life and enjoy their cookies.

The week after that, the first guy comes back and says he's here for his free batch of cookies. He explains that he heard they're $1 now and so he had purchased two the first time. He says he's happy that the second customer got his cookies, but to keep things fair he should get a second batch for his money's worth.

You bought a product you were happy with. It's not suddenly unfair because somebody else got a better deal than the one you were happy with, that's not how fairness works. You got what you bought, nobody's taking anything from you.

 

[Seb_Jean]

What amuses me most about that screenshot is that there are two empires with the same color. I get that the whole thick border thing is supposed to get that, but why in the world can't we get something where the AI doesn't reuse a color until all others have been picked?

Unless they use an algorythm to validate different colors on flags in randomly generated empires and change flags colors before the galaxy is generated, II don't see how they will prevent that. The thick border isn't so bad. At least, I'll be able to see the border between my vassals and me

 

[Studoku]

Also, I hope there are plans in place to remove those unclaimed spaces in the middle of that ring of connected systems all controlled by the same empire. I'd rather not have my territory look like swiss cheese.

Wiz commented on Reddit that the swiss cheese borders won't be in the realease version.

 

[Centurian128]

Wiz commented on Reddit that the swiss cheese borders won't be in the realease version.

Thank you. I don't follow Reddit, so I'd never have known.

 

[nathelbiya]

What amuses me most about that screenshot is that there are two empires with the same color. I get that the whole thick border thing is supposed to get that, but why in the world can't we get something where the AI doesn't reuse a color until all others have been picked?

This might be in a map mode where allies are shown in the same colour?

 

[Chieron]

Anomalies can't be found in other empires' space because then you could end up changing the deposits on their planets. You do not automatically see everything, you just have survey data on their planets. You don't get sensor of their ships automatically.

What about planets THEY haven't surveyed yet? Do you get survey data on those? - the wording is a bit vague here.

Also, wouldn't it have been a viable strategy not to survey celestial bodies unless they are inside your borders or neutral or have a station or are colonizable? That way, there would be a second chance for an anomaly, wouldn't it?

Also, fewer surveyable systems means less bonus from discovery.

 

[PirateJack]

@Wiz Could the auto-survey thing be locked behind the Open/Closed borders default? It doesn't make sense for an empire with default closed borders (such as Inward Perfectionists) to allow other species to map their territory that thoroughly. I can fluff away other nations as saying that open borders has precipitated trade, which has brought back information on their systems, but for Xenophobes I just can't make it mesh.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I haven't seen anyone write about this so I'm pointing it out now.

This is a bad idea on many levels because if those systems are surveyed, then you instantly know which strategic (and regular) resources are available in particular sectors.
That can be extremely critical information which I do not understand why other players should be simply GIVEN so easily.

You already know that under the current system as long as you have contact with an empire. You can see all the resources they are currently collecting including strategics.

 

[GloatingSwine]

That's not... entirely true. Currently, you can get anomalies in systems that initially belong to other empires, if you avoid surveying them or trading map data until you conquer or integrate those systems into your empire. Once the unsurveyed systems are part of your empire, you can send science ships to survey them and find anomalies. So this change could, in fact, drastically reduce the number of anomalies one can find over the course of the game.

It could, although anomalies get progressively less and less valuable as the game goes on anyway. I get the feeling that they're sort of supposed to get phased out in the midgame with more colony events coming through, but those are a bit too limited and colonies haven't really been special enough.

I expect borders will grow slower in the new system as well, meaning more neutral space to survey before all the space gets painted. So sure, you might get fewer anomalies all told, but mostly you'll be getting less of something you were only doing because it made the map untidy not because you wanted that 60 social research for finding yet another space coffin.

 

[BHydden]

That's ... Incredible. Thank you for that !

But does that mean that you'll never work again on the Ascension Paths ?

I read it as they're adding it to vanilla so that future ascension paths are not utopia dependent.

 

[Anthropophagic]

Surveying & Communications Trading
The way surveying, anomaly generation and star chart trading works has never really worked very well. For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems. For this reason, we've decided to make some changes to the way surveying works. In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway. There are some exceptions to this, such as Fallen Empires, whose space will need to be surveyed manually and can in fact yield anomalies.

As part of this we have decided to remove Star Chart trading as well as the ability to buy Star Charts from Curators, and instead replace this with the option to trade Communications with another empire - acquiring Communications from an empire in a trade deal will automatically put you in comms with any empires they have comms with that you do not. This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back.

With Trading communication is it possible to select who you are giving communication information for?

Maybe I have traders or an artisan troupe within my borders. Maybe I don't want anyone to have access to them. Or limit access for a period of time. This makes them more of a strategic resource to have them within my borders.

Maybe I don't want to introduce militaristic nation's to other ones in fear of them ganging up on me. Having the option of who to give communication to could come in handy.