Tinto Flavour #24 - 3rd of June 2025

[Burgundy_UB]

This is such an interesting idea, and it does make sense to me. "Maybe the Golden Horde should be represented as an IO itself, with a competition between the main hordes to get supremacy, like the HRE. The Khan should be elected during the Quriltaï by the main hordes, and a Borjigin, as the Ilkhanate."

I find the idea of a Horde "HRE" exciting! Do you reckon that the vassal/member Hordes should control their own armies, be allowed to Raid neighbours but not allowed to declare war outside of the Golden Horde HRE? (I think that if they declared wars on their own they'd either get smashed over time or devour the world, especially if they have access to the flip-territory-when-at-war mechanic.)

Yes, that seems fine ! Only the Khan should be able to declare war on foreigners, but the vassal hordes could only raid their neighbours. And the subdivision of the Golden Horde in several smaller ones would make the Golden Horde's explosion easier to be historical, as the vassals hordes would just separate from the main Golden Horde.

 

[Burgundy_UB]

I appreciate the ambition but I think some of these suggestions are a little anachronous? In the Great Troubles, loyalties were personal and often rapidly changing rather than there being stable subordinate hordes; the Golden Horde was rather closer to a unitary polity undergoing a ferocious civil war than a decentralized polity. For example, Edigu's initial powerbase was in Crimea even though by origin he was a Manghit. I'd make an exception for the Blue Horde and the Grey Horde, because they're relevant in 1337, but I don't know it makes sense in a 1337 start to have e.g. the Khongirads as a faction. Naghday didn't found a powerbase in Khwarezm because he was a Khongirad, he was simply an influential general. I've read Favereau's works, but I think you're reading back too far from her account of the late Jochid period into the politics of 1337.

What a crazy forum where you can argue about Favereau's work about the Golden Horde !

I agree about the personnal loyalty of the the vassals of the Khan, but it's not CK3. So, we need to think with a gameplay based on states, even if it's anachronic.
I was wondering that, with a decomposition of the Golden Horde in several vassal ones, the game of succession could be mor historical, with the candidate to be Khan trying to influate the different hordes in order to be elected in the Quriltaï. And the civil wars would be more accurate as well, with some factions with the different hordes aside, which could lead to an explosion of the Horde.

 

[Sizvahstar]

Those horse archer units require 0 men per month?

Is that 20% off 1 man, rounded down? In that case it would be good to show fractions.

My guess is, the GH being an Army Based Country, your army would disintegrate much too fast if you lacked any land, so a few of/all your combat troops are dirt cheap on Manpower cost maintenance for this reason.

 

[CrabHelmet]

What a crazy forum where you can argue about Favereau's work about the Golden Horde !

I agree about the personnal loyalty of the the vassals of the Khan, but it's not CK3. So, we need to think with a gameplay based on states, even if it's anachronic.
I was wondering that, with a decomposition of the Golden Horde in several vassal ones, the game of succession could be mor historical, with the candidate to be Khan trying to influate the different hordes in order to be elected in the Quriltaï. And the civil wars would be more accurate as well, with some factions with the different hordes aside, which could lead to an explosion of the Horde.

I think the decomposition of the Golden Horde is really difficult to do accurately because cultural identity on the steppes was so enormously fluid. In 1337, Noghay has only just died and the extent to which a distinct group has mythologised him as a founder and so created a Nogay Horde is pretty limited. Haji Tarkan/Astrakhan has only be founded very recently and hasn't displaced Sarai as the major trading city of the area, so the idea of an Astrakhani Khanate is pretty limited. The word "qazaq" hasn't been applied to any particular grouping yet. Nor has Osbeg been mythologised as the founder of an Osbeg/Uzbek horde, and when he is, it isn't even culturally for the people who refer to themselves as Uzbeks now!

Almost all of these identities came into existence *after* the collapse of the Golden Horde as people came to identify with the successor states. There was no Astrakhani or Noghay or Kazakh identity which *predated* the collapse. As such I have a lot of skepticism about the cultural map presented.

Really, it seems to me it would be better if the Golden Horde fractured into states based around key settled locations from which various warlords could extract wealth and reward followers. There was an Astrakhan Khanate because Astrakhan was at the mouth of the Volga and trade passed through it which could be levied and extorted. Same situation for Crimean Khanate on the trade running through Crimea via the Black Sea, and Kazan in terms of controlling the upper Volga. If Sarai had never been so completely sacked that Astrakhan rose to prominence, then we may have talked of a Sarai Khanate rather than an Astrakhan Khanate and identity would have been different.

As such, my radical suggestion would have just been to have a singular Kipchak culture covering what is listed as the Crimean, Astrakhani, and Noghai cultures currently listed by Paradox, representing the Dasht-i Qipchaq, and for splits just to be based on a settlement hub.

 

[TarasChornyi]

Probably someone has already mentioned this, but Halych/Volhynia and Kyiv were not part of the Yoke. They were more like direct tributaries/vassals with a high level of autonomy. In the 1300s Halych/Volhynia likely didn't pay any tribute at all

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Kurultai is a gathering, it shouldnt be a manpower building, maybe use this as a flavour name for parliament?

considering theres a tag named Vladimir, why not call it the "Velikiy Knyaz"(Grand Prince essentially)

maybe add some trade bonus modifiers like merchant capacity to sweeten the deal a bit

If any member, including the Grand Prince, pays less than 50% of the capacity, it will get a development malus, portraying the small-scale raids conducted by the Horde to put the princes in line.

idk i think it would be better getting a cb, yknow to allow the members in the IO to resist without actually breaking the IO

while the other allows any member to request the Tatar-Overlord to become the new Grand Prince of Vladimir:

i suggest there could also be a cb for those who rival(in the IO) the Grand Prince to claim the title. anyway keep up the good work

 

[Sizvahstar]

Actually, I need to ask something here.

If an ABC tag loses all it's land, even if their military units cost no manpower, will they be forced to raid and conquer just to feed themselves? In other words, is access to the market tied exclusively to a tag owning a Location or a building in a Location, meaning that army-based tags are at risk of starvation?

 

[Sizvahstar]

*checks watch: it's been 12 hours so I think it's OK to add another comment*

The more I think about the GH and the Tribes the more I feel like all it is is a Peasant-blocker. What is the point of the Estate? Can we please see at least an Estate Privilege you can give them?

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Despite the vast majority of the Golden Horde pops being tribal, 98% of them are considered Dhimmi, and that has a huge impact on the gameplay.

3,017,000 tribal pops will not act as tribal pops, due to belonging to the Dhimmi estate.

Most of these are Tengri and those just flat out shouldn't be Dhimmi by default. Which religions are considered to be Dhimmi should vary by law, but by default it should only include Christians and Jews, with some other religions like Zoroastrianism and Hinduism being added, but "pagan" religions like Tengri should basically never be included.

 

[Sirbab]

Most of these are Tengri and those just flat out shouldn't be Dhimmi by default. Which religions are considered to be Dhimmi should vary by law, but by default it should only include Christians and Jews, with some other religions like Zoroastrianism and Hinduism being added, but "pagan" religions like Tengri should basically never be included.

One of the devs recently posted that they changed which religions can be dhimmi, and notably I did not see tengri on there.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

One of the devs recently posted that they changed which religions can be dhimmi, and notably I did not see tengri on there.

Which dev?

Edit: nevermind, it was pavia's comment on last wednesday's post.

 

[Sirbab]

Which dev?

Edit: nevermind, it was pavia's comment on last wednesday's post.

Aye that's it, sorry, I wanted to help but I've got a fever that makes it hard to focus.

 

[Oglesby]

Actually, I need to ask something here.

If an ABC tag loses all it's land, even if their military units cost no manpower, will they be forced to raid and conquer just to feed themselves? In other words, is access to the market tied exclusively to a tag owning a Location or a building in a Location, meaning that army-based tags are at risk of starvation?

I think it is based on locations. But for building-based polities it would work as they are 'in' a location. Maybe it is based on the units location?
It wouldn't be limited to food. It would be all of the maintenance goods.
And we have the outstanding question of what pops die when 'regular' units take damage if they have no land.

 

[Sizvahstar]

Good answer. I would hazard to guess that there's a Distance Cost, maybe to the Market Center, for maintenance goods bought, while Food likely is local.
You pose a good question there.

 

[prinscky]

So basically the Golden horde is just busy dealing with rebellions and collects tributes. Is there any plan that a player could have chance of deciding the future of Golen horde? Like to implement certain reforms that could turn the country into a sedentary and stable monarchy?

 

[Polesie Admiral]

It is treason then…

y'know would be interesting if the Grand Prince(or any second powerful in the IO) would have the option to align with the pretender, legitimate khan or go for independence

 

[turoo7]

Is the Golden Horde's name dynamic? It would be cool for it to become the Golden Kingdom/republic if it changes government type

I mean it never called itself the Golden Horde that's what later Russian historians called it.

The actual period names for it are listed like the Ulus of + (insert current ruler or famous borjigin like Jochi or Batu) or the Kyshak ulus in arabian sources. - 2022 the Mongol World.

 

[turoo7]

Tribes and Chieftains as two separated class? Why is that? I thought the chieftains are chief of the tribes.

That's one of my gripes with EU4. There;s the tribes estate which I dislike for a similar reason to your comment, there's the culture + tags like Korchin, Oirat, Halh etc which has an event were you supposedly get rid of all the tribes but it doesn't do anything besides culture converting some provinces. But Chahar, Koshuud etc get tags without a culture. Then later on Mongolia can get the noble and cossack estates. What are the nobles the nobles of?

The Korchin tag + culture shouldn't exist as an independent tag in 1444. Around 1400 The Korchins being themselves borjigins tried to claim the throne in a three way succession crisis in the Northern Yuan only to lose retreat into their heartland only to crushed there. They during Dayan Qaan's reign were actually so loyal they were allowed to keep their lands and were given additional territory unlike the rest of the nobility who had it confiscated into appanages for Dayan's sons. There's ust no reason to have independent Korchin "tribe" without balkanizing the rest of the Northern Yuan into an asian HRE.

and the Mongolian tribes are academically debatable if they actually existed especially as depicted in game or if they were just ethnicities or regional identities formed from regional administrative/military units. Mongol society resembled a tiered system with commoners or black bone on the bottom with no blood relation to those at the top, nobles or white bone above them and then the Chinggisids. Like Halh the administrative region was created in the 1500s and only a century later do we see refrences to it as a people group.

 

[lovebeam]

Sarai was an exception for the vast sea of nomadic tribes of the steppe, the presence of sedentary peoples and vassals is undeniable, but the essence of the Golden Horde, as well as subsequent khanates, were precisely nomadic leaders and batyrs, even in the late Crimean Khanate the basis of the army and power were nomads, sedentary peoples were tributaries and traders

The Golden Horde had a developed urban culture, especially in the Volga region, the Black Sea region and the Syrdarya region (Sygnak, Jend, Sauran). Over 100 urban centers have been discovered on the territory of the horde. This should be reflected on the development map, everything is red there for some reason.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

hey here I wrote all my suggestions for the tatar yoke to make it more interesting some of the suggestions I wrote here already: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/suggestions-for-the-tatar-yoke-io.1840585/

 

[h_adik]

Is there will be any succession struggle and civil wars between different branches of Jochids and reasons that caused as irl? Any ways to end OzBegs reforms to centralize and feudalize GH or fail to end this reforms and cause civil war. I can suggest some content related to Yoke and reforms/civil wars GH:
1. Tatar Yoke:
1.1. Before Mengu-Timur tributary was collected by imperial administrative (they could be from any culture) tax collectors from Mongolia/Yuan. They did population census calculated how much tribute needed to be collected by those censuses and did quite a lot of work. All tributes went to Karakorum. Also title of Grand Pricipality of Vladimir was appointed there.
1.2. We don`t know when, but most likely in reign of OzBeg, GH started to grant and "outsource" tax collection to local Rus Princes.
1.3. Kyev was in dirrect control of Mongols. Unlike Vladimir where they approved title, Kyev Princes was appointed directly from GH until it fully lost to Lithuania. Even as a part of Lithuania it still paid tribute (cause who dare to say no to khan).

Overall you may add tributary reforms, choose from who must collect taxes/tributes with both benefits and debuffs.

2. Adminstrative and dynastic reforms of OzBeg and his successors:
2.1. OzBeg khan not only reshaped tributary system, but also administrative system of GH. First of all problem in any steppe horde at this time, was every Ulus (administrative part) has own Chinggisids. So every Ulus could declare independance or claim to title khan of GH. There for he killed all other Chinggisids and established feudal system where leader of Uluses appointed from local aristocrats.
2.2. The problem it would worked, if there wasn`t other Chinggisid countries nearby. For example GH Chinggisids sometimes ruled in Chagataid Khanate. So new Chinggisids could spawn or flee to other Khanates.
2.3. It all started to fall apart already after death OzBeg khan, his successor was too kind to his cousins, after it's backfired to assassination of Ozbegs grand successor.

Overall other than tributary system idk how it can be implemented to game. Maybe race with time to reform or be torn apart with civil war/ Maybe multiple ways to reform (feudalize/reforming Uluses but save Chinggizids) or stay in horde way.

3. Civil war started with other Chinggizids trying to avenge and retake control over GH. In one side new aristocrats (famous Mamai and his puppet khans mostly from White Horde) risen under Ozbeg and pretenders from different branches of Jochids (mostly from Blue Horde).

3.1. We still don`t know who was those first claimants, but chaos after them lead to war between Uluses and their own khans that claimed to all GH. All ended over 3 pretendents: Mamai (non Chinggizid can be presented as ruler White Horde or regent), Urus Khan (khan of Blue Horde or also named as Sozak Khan or Khan of Sozak), Tohta Khan (was originally from one of Uluses of Blue Horde, his father was killed by Urus khan in one of those wars to rule over Blue Horde) with help of Timur. Last two was from two different branches of Jochids (while we don`t know exactly from which was Urus, for last decades historians claim that he wasn`t from same House as Tohta Tuka-Timurids).
3.2. For a small time Urus khan was able to unite GH. but couldn`t kill other two. At last he died in a way to stop another time Tohta (he already crushed armies of Mamai and Tohta multiple times). And left Tohta as main pretendent to rule over all of GH. Defeat of Mamai was just a time (Rus Principalities was more likely to support any Chinggizids than Mamai, because Mamai pissed them by giving title of Grand Prince not flavoured ones and everyitme when puppet khans changed).
3.3. And last death of GH. All this chaos was annoying everyone in a Silk Road and the main controller Timur. Trade in the North way stopped, and to control it and also having GH in his hands Timur was main interested thir party of this wars. But Tohta was the smart one, and wanted independence. This lead to most bloody battles in the east, armies that Europe not see for another centuries. But Tohta was not the best general, maybe one of the best politics (maybe not same level as Ozbeg but still) but not a general (even if we don`t look how good was his opponent Timur).
3.4. In the end, whithout good leader, GH started to fall appart. All cities in lower Volga was burned by Timur, Tohta run away into Lithuania, other Tuka-Timurids started to rule over different Uluses (later known as khans of Crimea, Kazan, Big Horde), successors of Urus khan (they later will be known as Uzbek-Kazakhs and Kazakhs) started war to control again over Blue Horde against Shaybanids (other Tuka-Timurids, that later will be known as Uzbeks and Sibir Khans). And somewhere Nogai trying to save something or at least make his own Ulus.

Overall this big mess is difficult to balance, but I think it can be made by dividing GH by crisis by two states white and blue hordes with different rebels across countries.

I don't think all of this needs to be implemented, for example simulate or spawn all minor claimants or etc. But reforms and choose between different ways to collect tribute I think needs to be implemented.