Tinto Flavour #3 - 24th of January 2025 - Novgorod

[rasp01]

Dear Developers, no hate here, but you need to spend more time onto Eastern European Research. Firstly, when you are talking about so called Kievan Rus lets pronounce words correctly, there is no Kiev but Kyiv, like why would choose modern russian name for the city, if you use local names then please use local names, or if you decide to name all cities in English then it's still Kyiv. Secondly, there is no such term "Kievan Rus", haven't you ever thought why would even be called so? Was there any other Rus? No? It is the only Rus, the term Kievan was added by imperial-russian and soviet historians as part of their propaganda to try to recenter the origins of Rus into Moscow, but we all well know that Kyiv was existing long before even first mentions of Moscow. All this "northern Rus parts" like Novgorod is not totally correct, since Rus was only localized around Kyiv, Chernigiv and Pereyaslav, all other parts where just paying tribute to Rus. At that time Moscow and other local principalities were located in the region called "Zalissya" (behind the forests), they were even somewhat separated from the Rus and committed a raid on Kyiv once after which the city was burned and robbed. Do not forget that Muscovy was called Muscovy for a reason, since it was just a local principality, which population mainly consisted of local tribes, ethnicities (Ural, also Tatar and Mongol) and a little bit of Slavs and had little connection to the Rus state. Haven't you ever thought why would future emperor Peter I rebrand Muscovy into Russian Empire? It was a start of the greatest Historical and Cultural heist of all times, but these usurpers did not have a common language at a time, which where specially developed later at the end of 18 century and all peasants mostly spoke their local languages while aristocracy used French or German.

So, shortly we can talk forever about these questions, but what I wanted to say is to not play along russian propaganda and please use term Rus in all your descriptions and in-game texts.

P.S. can't even use English to separate two meanings from one word (by using two different words?): Russian as related to Rus and russian as related to Rossiya (modern state).

i totaly agree that there was no such thing as Kievan Rus. It was just Rus, capital was moved to Kyiv by Novgorodian knyaz Oleg. Also, important to mention that Russian Empire was a historical tag created by Peter the Great. However during a game years there is no such tag as Ukraine or people called themselves as Ukranians do not exist, this is totaly new born country.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

However during a game years there is no such tag as Ukraine or people called themselves as Ukranians do not exist, this is totaly new born country.

TLDR:

• This is not true.
• Using Ukrainian as a political reference to the culture/state (e.g. The Ukrainian Hetmanate) is totally fine in the second half of the game time frame (even though The Hetmanate/Cossack Hetmanate would be totally OK too).
• Using Ukraine as a geographical reference to the territory around the Dnipro river is totally fine in the first half of the game time frame.

__________________

More in detail about the political sense:

1. In the Ottoman-Commonwealth treaty of Buchach (1672) the Cossack state is called 'The Ukrainian State' (Ukrainkie Panstwo in Polish). This is formally the first recorded mention of Ukraine as a name of a political structure or a state:
   
2. Also, the term 'Ukrainian' was also commonly used to refer the local population since the XVII century, at least. E.g, Pylyp Orlyk's letters (1712) in Latin from the emigration in France. He was one of the Cossack leaders and a Hetman Mazepa's right hand and he normally used such terms as Ukrainian people (de publica Universa Ucraina), Ukrainian Republic (nune Respublica Ucrainensis) etc. in his letters:
   
3. Even Taras Shevchenko, the most prominent Ukrainian poet (1814 - 1861), lived within the game time frame and used these terms countless times.

So if the game evolves in this way, it would be totally OK to use Ukrainian to refer to the respective culture or state (e.g. The Ukrainian Hetmanate).
__________________

Now about the geographical sense:

The first mentions of Ukraine as a reference to the land/territory was in the Kyivan cronicle about the death of the Duke of Pereiaslav Volodymyr Hlibovych in a battle with the Cumans in 1187, when 'the whole Ukraine cried a lot over him'.
The oldest known transcription of the Kyivan cronicle, that survived to our days, is the Ipatian codex from 1420. That means that the term appeared somewhere between 1187 and 1420.

In any case, in the XVI century the term already appeared in European maps.
The oldest recorded is from the mid-XVI century (used by a French merchant Motiel during his Black Sea journey):

That means that the term Ukraine is totally fine to use in a geographical meaning to refer to that territory in the first half of the game time frame.

 

[Cuke]

TLDR:

• This is not true.

.... because there are Polish/Latin sources with Ukraine written in them, and they are unbiased, 3rd party, external sources in regards to the Russo-Ukrainian nationalist clashes.

 

[Druplesnubb]

XVIth century cartographers did not care about modern nationalist disputes lol.

 

[rasp01]

TLDR:

• This is not true.
• Using Ukrainian as a political reference to the culture/state (e.g. The Ukrainian Hetmanate) is totally fine in the second half of the game time frame (even though The Hetmanate/Cossack Hetmanate would be totally OK too).
• Using Ukraine as a geographical reference to the territory around the Dnipro river is totally fine in the first half of the game time frame.

__________________

More in detail about the political sense:

1. In the Ottoman-Commonwealth treaty of Buchach (1672) the Cossack state is called 'The Ukrainian State' (Ukrainkie Panstwo in Polish). This is formally the first recorded mention of Ukraine as a name of a political structure or a state:View attachment 1270399
2. Also, the term 'Ukrainian' was also commonly used to refer the local population since the XVII century, at least. E.g, Pylyp Orlyk's letters (1712) in Latin from the emigration in France. He was one of the Cossack leaders and a Hetman Mazepa's right hand and he normally used such terms as Ukrainian people (de publica Universa Ucraina), Ukrainian Republic (nune Respublica Ucrainensis) etc. in his letters:View attachment 1270401
3. Even Taras Shevchenko, the most prominent Ukrainian poet (1814 - 1861), lived within the game time frame and used these terms countless times.

So if the game evolves in this way, it would be totally OK to use Ukrainian to refer to the respective culture or state (e.g. The Ukrainian Hetmanate).
__________________

Now about the geographical sense:

The first mentions of Ukraine as a reference to the land/territory was in the Kyivan cronicle about the death of the Duke of Pereiaslav Volodymyr Hlibovych in a battle with the Cumans in 1187, when 'the whole Ukraine cried a lot over him'.
The oldest known transcription of the Kyivan cronicle, that survived to our days, is the Ipatian codex from 1420. That means that the term appeared somewhere between 1187 and 1420.

In any case, in the XVI century the term already appeared in European maps.
The oldest recorded is from the mid-XVI century (used by a French merchant Motiel during his Black Sea journey):

View attachment 1270400​

That means that the term Ukraine is totally fine to use in a geographical meaning to refer to that territory in the first half of the game time frame.

this is all sucked from a finger, somebody maybe internaly called themselves as urkanians, which is very doubtfull as itsnot recorded in western sources. Some polical block? Common, it doesnt give any real sense to include it a game. If we to include every block, which wanted to distance themselves from a great power in this cirmumstances Russian Empire. there would be thousands of them

 

[Cuke]

this is all sucked from a finger, somebody maybe internaly called themselves as urkanians, which is very doubtfull as itsnot recorded in western sources.

Ackshually, the argument is the opposite: regardless of internal naming, the name internationally is known to be Ukraine.

 

[H.A.S.E.V.I.R.]

This is from our discussion:

Panther you say?
Kinda sounds like the greater pan-european story of the black cats i guess best knows as the bodmin moor "black dog" or beast.
Pawmarks have been found but no evidence beyond that of its existence, not that that has stopped chinese dragons either

Anyways, thats a lead to follow if you want to use the big black cat motif for the flag.
Or even go for a "Set animal". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal

 

[Patron Pes]

this is all sucked from a finger, somebody maybe internaly called themselves as urkanians, which is very doubtfull as itsnot recorded in western sources. Some polical block? Common, it doesnt give any real sense to include it a game. If we to include every block, which wanted to distance themselves from a great power in this cirmumstances Russian Empire. there would be thousands of them

dude it is not "russia today" forum
you literally replied to a post with western sources

 

[Constantinus_Custodius]

I don't understand why we discuss Ukrainian history in the thread relating to Veliky Novgorod. Let's talk about Novgorod and the history of the North-West Rus in the thread of the Novgorodian Republic and talk about the Hetmanate in the thread of the Hetmanate