Tinto Flavour #8 - 28th of February 2025 - Morocco

[pheonicia]

Jaysh armies is a weird thing to say. Maybe it means something different in the Moroccan dialect, but as far as I know jaysh means armies so the tech is "armies armies".

Didn't check the previous pages if someone mentioned this yet.

 

[Atromb]

1. Will Castile / Portugal conquer the magreb like they seem to do in every game of eu4? My understanding is that this is quite ahistorical, to some degree.
2. For unique units can we please see a comparison to the non-unique unit they replace / improve upon? When In-game, can you clearly see this distinction?

My hope is that the addiction of tribesmen pops should make it really hard for any chrisitian to hold rural land in the maghreb. Iberian powers held coastal towns and cities but not the countryside as there is no way they could have made the tribes submit to their authority.

 

[Jamulus]

I find the societal value change descriptions to be a bit awkward to read.

To pick an example from the post, they currently look like:
We change Societal Values by +33.00 towards Traditional Economy (Current: 64.30 towards Traditional Economy. Monthly: +0.15 towards Capital Economy)
It's a lot of words for a small text box, the opposing societal values have similar names, the number colouring is inconsistent, it just takes too long to parse.

The first suggestion I would make is to hide the current and monthly values inside the tooltip for the value, so that everything in the brackets would appear only when you hover Traditional Economy. This would make the tooltip for the event much smaller at least, while keeping the information available. In fact I think that your current/monthly information should appear in all societal value tooltips regardless of context.

Alternatively if it's important to have the current/monthly values inline, then perhaps something like:
We change Societal Values by +33.00 towards Traditional Economy (Current: 64.30-0.15)
This way the +/- and the colouring all point the same way, toward your current value, and it avoids repeating everything all the time. If we had this event with a capital economy it would show:
We change Societal Values by -33.00 away from Capital Economy (Current: 64.30+0.15)
If our current value is always used as the positive direction then we don't need nearly as much clarification to avoid ambiguity, the single value mentioned is the positive direction for all numbers in the tooltip.

 

[Oglesby]

• Has there been thought towards compressing the 'we rivaled' and 'they rivaled' into one line? Unless we have drastically increased the number of people we should be rivaling it seems like a lot of wasted space?
  • maybe dynamically split the line horizontally between, us to them, both ways, them to us?
• What is the meaning of the red shield with cross swords? Can it be something different? If not, it is not needed
  • if it is needed maybe look at going horizontally unless we feel we need space for 8 wars
• The clasping hands for alliance is hard to distinguish
• The red banner in the vassal type isn't needed. I think the pawn would suffice

• I understand that with the 'to' icon modifier the arrow is moving to the dot, but it still looks like the arrow is moving away from the icon itself.
• I prefer 'progress towards' instead of to.
• Typically will the implemented on be the date that implementation started or once it got to 100%?
• Is the flavor just flavor? Should there be an effect that increases the affects of 'funding madrasas, hospitals, mosques, or helping the less fortunate'?

• Have we seen this before?
• Is the color the same as the commoners estate? (at first I thought it was an updated commoners icon because of the color)
• (Can we switch out of the sword from the commoners icon?)

• I am not sure I am sold on the 'Box with green plus' icon modifier as 'output' or 'production increase'.

• The icon in the top right of the title bar indicates that this is from the Age of Absolutism, you don't need to spend another line to say it again. (for all advances)
• You have an icon for the estate privilege so you should use it (you use it for unit unlocks).
• I still say that the 'allows' and 'unlocks' should still follow the <icon of thing><name of thing><spacing><effect of thing> style that is used for the other line items.

• Is this how we are going to do goods substitution? makes me wonder if having different RGO buildings should create a unified trade good. This would allow for differing amounts of food and 'grain' good being made from the different RGOs.
• Question, is 'building type' used here because 'building' is reserved for things that are built while 'building type' is things that could be built? (same question on the 'unit type' subtitles.)
• now that you are classifying your building types (red banner with shield) I think it would be better served with words after the subtitle like in the unit type tooltips. So here it would be "Building Type | Defensive" or even "Building Type | Military | Defensive".
• Move the 'age icon' to the title bar right to follow advances
• Can someone remind me what the other icons right of the age icons is?
  • the two and three are village and city? and there is a marker for rural?
  • What is the Wax Green Check?
  • I know there is a Star for capital possible (do we still need the city/village/rural in this case too?)
  • Is there a marker for 'Market', if not there should.
• Is there a reason that the 'requirements for construction' is a list instead of goods tiles like production methods?

• Event images (generically but have this here for reference)
  • 2d background image looks good. (a lot of them are looking like paintings with a weathered white near the bottom)
  • 3d model looks okay though I still feel it is not needed
  • Together they appear bad

• Generically
  • I still don't understand the color coding of the unit statistics
  • The order of the items in the unit statistics appears haphazard
  • Why are we sometimes 'listings' good and other times 'tiling' goods. Pick one, preferably the latter.
  • Thank you for striped occupation

 

[viola]

I was expecting something on the future conflicts with Castille and the Christian Iberians. The Battle of Rio Salgado was one of the last major battles of the Reconquista and it happened only a few years after the start of the game.

 

[Cephei80]

Wow. I can't believe it's been exactly 1 year since EU5 Project Caesar got announced.

you smuggling it now ?

 

[Gurtannon]

Content is looking amazing!

Also, the color contrast of the new red for values is a lot better, thanks!

For me, color contrast got worse lol

Previous contrast was kinda fine for me :d

(I am color blind too)

 

[Cephei80]

Any chance for Morocco and for Tunis (and I guess some others as well) to have their dynasties as country names, like it was historically?

wasnt really a thing historically , its more modern like byzantines .
europeans and other arabs wouldnt keep chaging the designation of that land after each dynasty change so they kept using same name "marruecos & maroko & morocco & marrakesh"
locally since the idrissids the name of the land is the same , al maghrib al aqsa or simply al maghrib (land of sunset or the far west ) and its still its name today .
algeria and tunisia in other hand were named after the 1 city that represented them algier and tunis , they dropped their maghrib name but algeria originally the mid west and tunisia was the near west .

when a new dynasty arrive they only called it like this in arabic : caliphate +dynasty name + region name.
so the almoravids were like "caliphates of almorafidoun in al maghrib al aqsa wal andalus) for caliphate of almoravides in morocco and anadulsia or in a more precise way , caliphate of marrakesh .
since dynasties change and rank of the country change too 1 name remain , that is morocco and this is why castillians didnt bother and named them Marruecos / Morocco no matter the dynasty as seen there beside the almohad flag or mentioned in their reconquista songs .

note that same thing happened elsewhere like india .
we say mughal but that was a slur that refer to the mongol origin of the dynasty that europeans adopted . the nation was called hindoustan not mughal empire.

 

[RivenCR]

Is there any plans for consistency in regards to how countries are named in the Maghreb? If Morocco is named Morocco, and Tunisia is named Tunis, why isn't Tlemcen named Algeria?

In 1377 Ibn Khaldoun refers to the region now known as Algeria as Bilad Al-Jazair, meaning the country of Algeria, not the city. If he wanted to refer to the city itself, he'd have written Madinat Al-Jazair, which he didnt' do, since he spoke of the entire nation of it that you unfortunately name Tlemcen.

The least you could do is apply some consistency. If you don't want to name Tlemcen Algeria, then you shouldn't name the Maridins as Morocco and the Hafsids as Tunis.

Speaking of Ibn Khaldoun, why is Morocco receiving the event for him? The man was born in Tunis' capital and died in Cairo. There is literally no reason to give him to Morocco except Pro-Morocco bias, which seems to appear in every history game I play.

The way you handle Algeria in your games, one would think your sources are French colonial ones.

It's a really sad thing to see. Even in EU4 in later start dates, Algeria is a march of the Ottomans while Tunis is independent. This is utterly FALSE according to literally every single European source of the time which claimed Algeria was considered independant from the Ottomans since the 16th century.

 

[gaplater]

Is there any plans for consistency in regards to how countries are named in the Maghreb? If Morocco is named Morocco, and Tunisia is named Tunis, why isn't Tlemcen named Algeria?

In 1377 Ibn Khaldoun refers to the region now known as Algeria as Bilad Al-Jazair, meaning the country of Algeria, not the city. If he wanted to refer to the city itself, he'd have written Madinat Al-Jazair, which he didnt' do, since he spoke of the entire nation of it that you unfortunately name Tlemcen.

The least you could do is apply some consistency. If you don't want to name Tlemcen Algeria, then you shouldn't name the Maridins as Morocco and the Hafsids as Tunis.

Speaking of Ibn Khaldoun, why is Morocco receiving the event for him? The man was born in Tunis' capital and died in Cairo. There is literally no reason to give him to Morocco except Pro-Morocco bias, which seems to appear in every history game I play.

The way you handle Algeria in your games, one would think your sources are French colonial ones.

It's a really sad thing to see. Even in EU4 in later start dates, Algeria is a march of the Ottomans while Tunis is independent. This is utterly FALSE according to literally every single European source of the time which claimed Algeria was considered independant from the Ottomans since the 16th century.

Or maybe just call "Morocco" and "Tunis" something else. "Morocco" feels weird (and anachronistic) for that time. Merinid Sultanate is good, or even Merinid Sultanate of Fez. Zianid Sultanate or even Zianid Sultanate of Tlemsen is good too. What do you think about this ?

 

[Sulphurologist]

For me, color contrast got worse lol

Previous contrast was kinda fine for me :d

(I am color blind too)

Damnit noooo! xD

I do agree the red is less vivid, making it less distinct as 'red', but the light-darkness aspect is a lot better for readability imo.

Can I bribe your brain with some absolute metrics?
old
new

 

[Bisonmask]

Not a huge fan of the Saharan Gold Trade being an advance rather than an emergent property of the trade system, is there any particular reason why it wasn't possible to set it up as the latter?

 

[Varus90]

Jaysh armies is a weird thing to say. Maybe it means something different in the Moroccan dialect, but as far as I know jaysh means armies so the tech is "armies armies".

Didn't check the previous pages if someone mentioned this yet.

Used north of the Desert Desert, where you can find the fox fox!

English conventions on loanwords and proper names are odd.

 

[Druplesnubb]

Is the vizier taking power automatically something negative that you have to combat? Is it possible to centralize the state under the vizier instead of the sultan?

 

[Gurtannon]

Damnit noooo! xD

I do agree the red is less vivid, making it less distinct as 'red', but the light-darkness aspect is a lot better for readability imo.

Yea the problem is new red not being much distinct, otherwise lighter green looks better than old green

Can I bribe your brain with some absolute metrics?
old
new

When I zoom both “old” and “new” colors (I mean in forum) looks green and exactly same lol, looking from a bit far, new slightly looks reddy xd

I can see both colors in website clearly, but new one looks slightly like pink, otherwise I think the problem for me is that when (in new ui) light green and light red is together red stands less distinct and results in a slight inconvenience for me,

I prefer light green- dark green contrast , I think it would be best

 

[SugaryWind63002]

Will we see good old Ottoman expedition that helped Morocco to defeat Portugal in game as an evemt or situation etc? It was the battle king of Portugal died and let to Union between Portugal and Spain that ended in 1648 with rebelion and independence of Portugal from Spain

 

[pheonicia]

Used north of the Desert Desert, where you can find the fox fox!

English conventions on loanwords and proper names are odd.

Served with a side of chai tea.

Edit: well, we say it shai, but tomato potato.

 

[gaplater]

1. Will Castile / Portugal conquer the magreb like they seem to do in every game of eu4? My understanding is that this is quite ahistorical, to some degree.
2. For unique units can we please see a comparison to the non-unique unit they replace / improve upon? When In-game, can you clearly see this distinction?

About your first question. I think an invasion of the Maghreb should be impossible because of 1) Logistics (a nightmare) 2) a suicide even if a success since you'd have a lot of land with low control, a hostile population, powerful local hostile nomadic tribes, and hostile neighbours (who will find it easier to take that land from you compared to the effort you gave, again because of logistics...), you'd just lose that land to rebels or to someone else. Logistics is crucial

 

[Huskermax5]

A: any pirate mechanics?
B: is the war offensive or defensive? Is Tunis also at war?

 

[Lank1]

For production methods like the Agadir that create an effect instead of produce a good, how does it work if only half of the inputs are available? Does the effect scale, or is it binary on/off? And say it has access to all the good it needs except only 0.05 grain and 0.05 corn, will those combine to count as “1 full production”?