Tinto Flavour #8 - 28th of February 2025 - Morocco

[Cephei80]

Is there any plans for consistency in regards to how countries are named in the Maghreb? If Morocco is named Morocco, and Tunisia is named Tunis, why isn't Tlemcen named Algeria?

In 1377 Ibn Khaldoun refers to the region now known as Algeria as Bilad Al-Jazair, meaning the country of Algeria, not the city. If he wanted to refer to the city itself, he'd have written Madinat Al-Jazair, which he didnt' do, since he spoke of the entire nation of it that you unfortunately name Tlemcen.

The least you could do is apply some consistency. If you don't want to name Tlemcen Algeria, then you shouldn't name the Maridins as Morocco and the Hafsids as Tunis.

Speaking of Ibn Khaldoun, why is Morocco receiving the event for him? The man was born in Tunis' capital and died in Cairo. There is literally no reason to give him to Morocco except Pro-Morocco bias, which seems to appear in every history game I play.

The way you handle Algeria in your games, one would think your sources are French colonial ones.

It's a really sad thing to see. Even in EU4 in later start dates, Algeria is a march of the Ottomans while Tunis is independent. This is utterly FALSE according to literally every single European source of the time which claimed Algeria was considered independant from the Ottomans since the 16th century

mate , its not that dense , Ibn Khaldoun is likely to be in every maghreb culture as an event .
the issue with algeria is that is that you cannot name tlemcen as algeria. its like calling sparta as athens
algeria is a city that became important later under ottoman rule , before it it was tlemcen , and tlemcen isnt algeria but a different state .
morocco and tunis are different is because they had sultans. the realm was known , so when the country fragment temporarily during a civil war the unifier still rule over the same countries , Ifriqiya (tunis) or Al maghrib al aqsa (morocco) . in case of algeria its borders were often chewed up by morocco and tunis with tunis securing east of modern day algier many times.

as for algeria , it is commonly known it fell before tunis , the city did surrender and gave its keys to Suliman . and it WAS part of the ottoman empire , dont you dare deny ottoman presence .
if name me the sultans of algeria since 1444 , i wont accept beyliks of the turks , you say independent ? then name who ruled you ? also explain why west of algeria did pray of friday in the name of Sultans of marrakesh and on center and east in the name of Sultan of constantinople ? if algeria was independent as you claim they would pray in the name of their sultan or ruler but they didnt .
even the american colonies had more independence than algeria for a fact .

 

[Cephei80]

Served with a side of chai tea.

Edit: well, we say it shai, but tomato potato.

morocco is team Tea not chai . unlike most the arabs , morocco got its tea from the sea hence they call it Atae or Atay and Tae in amazigh morocco , they say chai as much they say Thé . this mean when moroccans say Chai its said as a foreign word.
the maps of chai vs tea are wrong because Tea got introduced by sea and peoples use T not SH.

 

[nyetflix2]

the Arab fanatsia

You mean like tbourida? Cool idea but what will it add to the game? I guess maybe you can consume some gunpowder and horses to get a bit of prestige.

 

[NDIS]

Dear God, I swear I'll be going to the gym every morning if this UI stays in the release version!

 

[RivenCR]

mate , its not that dense , Ibn Khaldoun is likely to be in every maghreb culture as an event .
the issue with algeria is that is that you cannot name tlemcen as algeria. its like calling sparta as athens
algeria is a city that became important later under ottoman rule , before it it was tlemcen , and tlemcen isnt algeria but a different state .
morocco and tunis are different is because they had sultans. the realm was known , so when the country fragment temporarily during a civil war the unifier still rule over the same countries , Ifriqiya (tunis) or Al maghrib al aqsa (morocco) . in case of algeria its borders were often chewed up by morocco and tunis with tunis securing east of modern day algier many times.

as for algeria , it is commonly known it fell before tunis , the city did surrender and gave its keys to Suliman . and it WAS part of the ottoman empire , dont you dare deny ottoman presence .
if name me the sultans of algeria since 1444 , i wont accept beyliks of the turks , you say independent ? then name who ruled you ? also explain why west of algeria did pray of friday in the name of Sultans of marrakesh and on center and east in the name of Sultan of constantinople ? if algeria was independent as you claim they would pray in the name of their sultan or ruler but they didnt .
even the american colonies had more independence than algeria for a fact .


View attachment 1261670

Your information is incorrect. Ibn Khaldoun correctly calls the region known as Algeria today as Bilad al-Jazair, bilad meaning country. If he wanted to refer to the city, he'd have said Madinat Al-Jazair. He didn't. Hence, he referred to an entire nation. In 1377.

Also, Algiers did not "fall" to the Ottomans. Algerian scholars called upon the Ottoman Sultan to help against the Spanish and WILLINGLY chose to accept vassalage, which lasted barely a few decades.

European sources are clear that Algeria became effectively independant from the Ottomans around the late 16th century.

Algeria was pretty much always a nation. The only sources that claim otherwise are French ones after 1830. Go figure why, eh.

All the Zayanid Sultans are Algerian. So were Zirid ones. And Hammadids ones. And Fatimid ones. And I can keep going for a while.

Algeria didn't pray in the name of the Sultan of Marrakesh, they prayed in the name of the Ottoman Sultan : of course, he was the Caliph.

"even the american colonies had more independence than algeria for a fact ." Yeah, that's a load of bs. I can tell you're Moroccan or French. Or both.

I could bring you hundreds of documents proving my stance. By the way, the map is from 1738. Morroco isn't named Morocco, but Algeria is. Very interesting, isn't it?

Truth about Algeria is AWAY from French sources past 1830. Everything I've sent you are sources prior to 1830. Just translate it all. The last life is even about Algerians attacking TURKISH boats. So much for a "vassal".

 

[Atromb]

Your information is incorrect. Ibn Khaldoun correctly calls the region known as Algeria today as Bilad al-Jazair, bilad meaning country. If he wanted to refer to the city, he'd have said Madinat Al-Jazair. He didn't. Hence, he referred to an entire nation. In 1377.

Also, Algiers did not "fall" to the Ottomans. Algerian scholars called upon the Ottoman Sultan to help against the Spanish and WILLINGLY chose to accept vassalage, which lasted barely a few decades.

European sources are clear that Algeria became effectively independant from the Ottomans around the late 16th century.

Algeria was pretty much always a nation. The only sources that claim otherwise are French ones after 1830. Go figure why, eh.

All the Zayanid Sultans are Algerian. So were Zirid ones. And Hammadids ones. And I can keep going for a while.

Algeria didn't pray in the name of the Sultan of Marrakesh, they prayed in the name of the Ottoman Sultan : of course, he was the Caliph.

"even the american colonies had more independence than algeria for a fact ." Yeah, that's a load of bs. I can tell you're Moroccan or French. Or both.

But did Ibn Khaldoun refer to the area around the city (modern day central algeria) or to the entirety of the modern day country? The latter seems unlikely given that until the stablishment of the regency both bejaia and tlemecen were larger/more important than algiers.

 

[RivenCR]

But did Ibn Khaldoun refer to the area around the city (modern day central algeria) or to the entirety of the modern day country? The latter seems unlikely given that until the stablishment of the regency both bejaia and tlemecen were larger/more important than algiers.

No, he referred to the nation itself. You can use Google Lens to translate the arabic text.

 

[Atromb]

Your information is incorrect. Ibn Khaldoun correctly calls the region known as Algeria today as Bilad al-Jazair, bilad meaning country. If he wanted to refer to the city, he'd have said Madinat Al-Jazair. He didn't. Hence, he referred to an entire nation. In 1377.

Also, Algiers did not "fall" to the Ottomans. Algerian scholars called upon the Ottoman Sultan to help against the Spanish and WILLINGLY chose to accept vassalage, which lasted barely a few decades.

European sources are clear that Algeria became effectively independant from the Ottomans around the late 16th century.

Algeria was pretty much always a nation. The only sources that claim otherwise are French ones after 1830. Go figure why, eh.

All the Zayanid Sultans are Algerian. So were Zirid ones. And Hammadids ones. And Fatimid ones. And I can keep going for a while.

Algeria didn't pray in the name of the Sultan of Marrakesh, they prayed in the name of the Ottoman Sultan : of course, he was the Caliph.

"even the american colonies had more independence than algeria for a fact ." Yeah, that's a load of bs. I can tell you're Moroccan or French. Or both.

I could bring you hundreds of documents proving my stance. By the way, the map is from 1738. Morroco isn't named Morocco, but Algeria is. Very interesting, isn't it?

Truth about Algeria is AWAY from French sources past 1830. Everything I've sent you are sources prior to 1830. Just translate it all. The last life is even about Algerians attacking TURKISH boats. So much for a "vassal".

Also another point but Barbarossa did conquer Algiers from the zayyanids, although, you are correct that the zayyanids had just become an aragonese/spanish vassal at that point, and their emirs were basically puppet rulers.

As for the last map, european countries have traditionally refer to islamic dinaties by the name of their capital, which historically was often just an exonym. Morocco is just a european reference to marrakesh that wasn't used internally, and as you show Marrakech didn't become the oficial consitent exonym for the country until more recent times. Fes being used as the exonym instead though doesn't mean it was a different political entity.

 

[Atromb]

No, he referred to the nation itself. You can use Google Lens to translate the arabic text.

Sure but like what nation? Eastern algeria had historically been considered part of ifriqiyya until the regency of algiers so I find unlikely that he would also include that.
Same with the large swathes of the sahara that your map includes and that opperated autonomously from any maghrebi dinasty.

 

[nyetflix2]

No, he referred to the nation itself. You can use Google Lens to translate the arabic text.

Any chance you can post a higher quality version? It's a bit hard to make out some words

 

[Ekyman]

Any chance you can post a higher quality version? It's a bit hard to make out some words

 

[nyetflix2]

No, he referred to the nation itself. You can use Google Lens to translate the arabic text.

this doesn't really seem clear to me in the text. The one part where he says Bilad al-Jazair, which you boxed in green, he is saying "Bilad Bejaia is connected to Bilad al-Jazair in its (the latter's) east)". He doesn't define the precise boundaries of this country, and he is in the middle of listing various provinces in order from west to east. I really see no reason to equate Bilad al-Jazair with Al-Maghreb al-Awsat. He mentions Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat earlier in the text, saying that its "base" (assumedly capital) is Tlemcen, and lists within it Balad Honaine, Oran, and Al-Jazair. The most logical interpretation to me is that Bilad Al-Jazair, for Ibn Khaldoun, is one of several subdivisions of Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat. But perhaps I am missing some nuance in the text?

and if it is as you say, Atromb raises a good point.... what was so special about Algiers already in 1377 that its name is applied to such a large region despite not being its capital nor the largest city?

 

[gaplater]

this doesn't really seem clear to me in the text. The one part where he says Bilad al-Jazair, which you boxed in green, he is saying "Bilad Bejaia is connected to Bilad al-Jazair in its (the latter's) east)". He doesn't define the precise boundaries of this country, and he is in the middle of listing various provinces in order from west to east. I really see no reason to equate Bilad al-Jazair with Al-Maghreb al-Awsat. He mentions this latter earlier in the text, saying that its "base" (assumedly capital) is Tlemcen, and lists within it Balad Honaine, Oran, and Al-Jazair. The most logical interpretation to me is that Bilad Al-Jazair, for Ibn Khaldoun, is one of several subdivisions of Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat. But perhaps I am missing some nuance in the text?

and if it is as you say, Atromb raises a good point.... what was so special about Algiers already in 1377 that its name is applied to such a large region despite not being its capital nor the largest city?

Exactly

 

[RivenCR]

this doesn't really seem clear to me in the text. The one part where he says Bilad al-Jazair, which you boxed in green, he is saying "Bilad Bejaia is connected to Bilad al-Jazair in its (the latter's) east)". He doesn't define the precise boundaries of this country, and he is in the middle of listing various provinces in order from west to east. I really see no reason to equate Bilad al-Jazair with Al-Maghreb al-Awsat. He mentions Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat earlier in the text, saying that its "base" (assumedly capital) is Tlemcen, and lists within it Balad Honaine, Oran, and Al-Jazair. The most logical interpretation to me is that Bilad Al-Jazair, for Ibn Khaldoun, is one of several subdivisions of Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat. But perhaps I am missing some nuance in the text?

and if it is as you say, Atromb raises a good point.... what was so special about Algiers already in 1377 that its name is applied to such a large region despite not being its capital nor the largest city?

Ibn Khaldoun is not citing "divisions" of Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat, he's listing the different provinces of the nation he names Bilad Al-Jazair.

As you can tell in the following capture, he says "within the province of Oran, in Bilad Al-Jazair".

Oran is a bit more than 400km away from Algiers. If by Bilad Al-Jazair he meant the surroundings of the city, surely he wouldn't mention Oran as a province of it.

As for Atromb's point, I have no clear answer to it. And Ibn Khaldoun isn't here to answer anymore either. But the fact is, he mentions Oran as a province of Bilad Al-Jazair, and Oran was in the hands of the Sultanate of Tlemcen then... He used the names interchangeably. For Ibn Khaldoun, Bilad Al-Jazair and Tlemcen is the same thing.

 

[nyetflix2]

Ibn Khaldoun is not citing "divisions" of Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat, he's listing the different provinces of the nation he names Bilad Al-Jazair.

As you can tell in the following capture, he says "within the province of Oran, in Bilad Al-Jazair".

Oran is a bit more than 400km away from Algiers. If by Bilad Al-Jazair he meant the surroundings of the city, surely he wouldn't mention Oran as a province of it.

As for Atromb's point, I have no clear answer to it. And Ibn Khaldoun isn't here to answer anymore either. But the fact is, he mentions Oran as a province of Bilad Al-Jazair, and Oran was in the hands of the Sultanate of Tlemcen then... He used the names interchangeably. For Ibn Khaldoun, Bilad Al-Jazair and Tlemcen is the same thing.

Well this one is a bit more enticing, but are you sure we cannot interpret it as "they settled him and his family in Kelaat Beni Salama in the province of Oran from Bilad al-Jazair"? Meaning that Bilad al-Jazair was simply their previous location, and now they have been moved to the province of Oran.

 

[nyetflix2]

Ibn Khaldoun is not citing "divisions" of Al-Maghreb Al-Awsat, he's listing the different provinces of the nation he names Bilad Al-Jazair.

As you can tell in the following capture, he says "within the province of Oran, in Bilad Al-Jazair".

Oran is a bit more than 400km away from Algiers. If by Bilad Al-Jazair he meant the surroundings of the city, surely he wouldn't mention Oran as a province of it.

As for Atromb's point, I have no clear answer to it. And Ibn Khaldoun isn't here to answer anymore either. But the fact is, he mentions Oran as a province of Bilad Al-Jazair, and Oran was in the hands of the Sultanate of Tlemcen then... He used the names interchangeably. For Ibn Khaldoun, Bilad Al-Jazair and Tlemcen is the same thing.

Also are you sure it's a direct quote? Because just a line later, it refers to Ibn Khaldoun in the third person.

 

[RivenCR]

May I add, you also have a map from Al-Idrissi in the 12th century including cities such as Cherchell into what he calls Bilad Al-Maghrib Al-Awsat.

Well this one is a bit more enticing, but are you sure we cannot interpret it as "they settled him and his family in Kelaat Beni Salama in the province of Oran from Bilad al-Jazair"? Meaning that Bilad al-Jazair was simply their previous location, and now they have been moved to the province of Oran.

You could, but as an native Arabic speaker, that's not how I understand it.

 

[RivenCR]

Also are you sure it's a direct quote? Because just a line later, it refers to Ibn Khaldoun in the third person.

Also are you sure it's a direct quote? Because just a line later, it refers to Ibn Khaldoun in the third person.

It's a restranscription. from his book, Al-Muqqadimah. The author is quoting Ibn Khaldoun.

 

[nyetflix2]

May I add, you also have a map from Al-Idrissi in the 12th century including cities such as Cherchell into what he calls Bilad Al-Maghrib Al-Awsat.

Did you mean to type Bilad al-Jazair here? Because I don't really see how that proves anything. And also Cherchell is not super far from Algiers.

You could, but as an native Arabic speaker, that's not how I understand it.

Fair enough. It's not my mother tongue so there's not much more I can say.

 

[ElReyVI]

we have managed to establish firm control within our borders.

As you stated, the Marinid Sultan of Morocco managed to "[...] establish firm control within our borders.".

Yet I only see a administrative power of 33. Wouldn't that be a bit inaccurate? I think the points from diplomacy should go to administration in order to represent the former circumstances. Else the statement makes no sense with an administrative power of 33.