Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Stormy seas]

Do you have any plans to add glaciers to the graphical map in the Norwegian Wastelands or is it to granular?

 

[Erbeilas]

Actually, I found that name in a few old maps.

On this topic, what's the policy on old spelling? Because I see some variety there, like both Waestbo and Växjö.

 

[Johan]

On this topic, what's the policy on old spelling? Because I see some variety there, like both Waestbo and Växjö.

Older is better

 

[Futski]

I was refering to another users comment, specifying Bølling, Grindsted and Silkeborg as potential candidates for merging into other locations. If so needed for increasing locations elsewhere.

Nis Baggesen said:
Others have already commented on the Danish locations, and I'll just quickly concur with the observations that Bølling, Grindsted and Silkeborg make little sense for the era, and could probably be collapsed into neighboring locations. At the very least Ringkøbing should be at Ringkøbing Fjord, where you have placed Bølling.

I think it's fair to say that they were less important, at least until the modern period, than Nyborg, Svendborg, Slagelse, Vordingborg, København and (Nykøbing) Falster

The point is I think there's a decent case for increasing the total amount of locations in Denmark, i.e. Norway and Sweden are filled with locations, that have 100-1000 pops, while Denmark has like 12 locations with a higher pop count than Stockholm, which is why I think it's reasonable to swap the two inland ones, for ones positioned on the coast, while still adding more locations on Fyn, Sjælland and Southern Jutland. Especially because barely anybody lived in the Central part of Jutland before the 1750-1900 period.

 

[Sten Sture III]

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

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While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
View attachment 1165169
We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
View attachment 1165173
It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
View attachment 1165174
There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
View attachment 1165176
Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
View attachment 1165177
Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
View attachment 1165181
Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
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Not many people live up in the north..

Spoiler: Location Pops

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I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.


Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…

Is there a reason why the Gutnish are there own culture on Gotland but the Geatish are not in southern Sweden? One can argue that the Geats did not see themselves as Swedes yet by 1337

 

[Focus my son]

Finland is not never has been and never will be Scandinavia.

I hoped I was not to only one to notice this disgrace

 

[Boxtrot]

Alright having taken some time to check everything, I've just put some numbers on paper to really get a grasp of things.

Denmark in this dev diary (slesvig & skane included) has 42 locations. It has a population of 711K + 135K + 193K (denmark, slesvig and skane)
The Nothern Netherlands by comparison (a relatively high density area and roughly similar sized) has about 44. From what I could gather, the population numbers are somewhat similar at least in 1300.

Now Norway, which on this map has a population of 469K. Meanwhile Norway on this map has 113 locations. 113. While it's true that norway has around 10x more land area, it's still a bit lopsided I think.

View attachment 1165851

I've highlighted the Eiderstedt peninsula in red in the population map as the dev diary didn't include the locations.

1. This is Aabenraa
2. I would suggest adding in Sonderborg, it gained city rights before the startdate and had plenty of military significance.
3. From maps I've seen, Ribe seemed to have been a bit smaller in size and was often part of the kingdom of denmark with these borders instead of the larger bit covering all of Tønder as well.
4. Similarly I would also go with Tønder as a location as it also received town privileges before the startdate

Lastly I wanna again draw attention to the Uthlande or the Nord Frisian Islands which used to be much more massive in size.
The Town of Rungholt is said to have had a population of about 3000 before being drowned into the sea during the Groote Mandrenke or Saint Marcellus Flood, which in total killed around 25000 people.

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A map from 1600 still showing the outlines of the island and the bay in which rungholt sank.

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Now with regards to this comment.


So is this for the entire region of Northern Europe or is it more of a guideline? If so, perhaps a compromise could be made to merge some locations in norway as it seems overly dense with many provinces having 8 or more locations, while in Europa Universalis they were just that, one singular province. Meanwhile there are eve more provinces than vanilla eu4 if I recall correctly, while other regions of the world have seen their province number be reduced. Because I really think Denmark sits below the reasonable number of locations.

Yea, This is what i'm trying to say as well, Denmark in comparison to Norway and Sweden has very few locations.



I think having south jutland there is not the best solution as you said yourself, it leads to confusion. South Jutland should be synonymous with Schleswig and I think it would be better to be more consistant in that regard than having both as shown by paradox or having south jutland moved up to above schleswig.

I prefer Schleswig myself like you have done, so you can have a north and south province, instead of being stuck with South South Jutland and North South Jutland

The locations you put together with it I would probably merge into the East Jutland province and Hardsyssel/West Jutland province.

So this density is just insane. While I respect your work as it is very detailed, this is definitely too much, this would be like putting 1000 locations in france.

I think the terms around South Jutland is confusing. Sønderjylland (Southern Jutland) means Jutland south of Kongeåen. Sydjylland (South Jutland) is the southern part of Nørrejylland. i.e. The part south of Midtjylland, but north of Sønderjylland. Maybe using the syssel system for names of provinces in Jutland would be nice. Possibly with an event later into the game that remanes the provinces. In gerneral the constant use of directions to discrabe areas are just a bit confusing. Maybe slesvig could be seperated into "Ellumsyssel" and "Istedsyssel". Vendsyssel-thy also does not makes much sense, when at the time, thy was Thysyssel. Then again, i don't think there are better names to call it.

The last img. you included made me think. Should Denmark start as 4 tags? Slesvig led by Duke Valdemar V, (Who would become King Valdemar III of Denmark) Scania as a dominion of Sweden, and the rest split between Count John III of Holstein-Plön, and Count Gerhard III of Holstein-Rendsburg. Maybe calling their tags Jutland and Zealand would fit. Could be an interesting start, as John, Gerhard, and Valdemar could all have become king. Gerhard might even have been the favourite.

I think having Ribe, Tønder, and Sønderborg all seperate location would make for too many small locations. Having Ribe being part of Denmark would be a mistake i think. During things like the treaty of Ribe in 1460, it is clear that Ribe is considered part of Slesvig, but it would later become seperated. I cannot quite tell when it became properly intergrated though.

 

[Druplesnubb]

Because it wasn't really an integrated domain at the time? Scania as well as large parts of Denmark had been mortgaged out just 5 years prior to the start date by Christopher II, because of a bankruptcy.

The Danish Crown regained Scania less than 30 years after the start date.

Isn't that what the Control mechanic is for?

 

[Boxtrot]

Quick question, is Fehmarn part is Schleswig the tag? It ought to be, but it is kinda hard to tell from the map. Looks like it isn't on the first image.

 

[Boxtrot]

Since I know that you sometimes take feedback on these posts I thought I would mention a few things in regard to Denmark. Even if I am about to gut my home of Silkeborg in the progress.

To make my arguments I am going to use two pictures
https://jggj.dk/thesis.htm

View attachment 1165792

It shows the parish sizes in medieval Denmark. Which the thesis points out correlates (I know I know) quite neatly with population density. Not many surprises here, as it also correlates nicely when you look at a map of the soil types of Denmark.

Brought to you by: https://data.geus.dk/geusmap/?lang=...tskort_200000,jordartskort_25000,dkskaermkort or as a picture:

View attachment 1165793
The important one here is the light brown one, which represents clay-heavy soils, while the orange and pinkish ones are sandier and thus less suited for agriculture, though not necessarily impossible.

Regarding the population, I do think it is a bit on the low side, but I believe this can be chalked up to this being Denmark in the Kingless times, etc. If you’re set on the numbers, I suggest redistributing the population from areas I think are too high to those that are too low. I will only mention the localisations where I think the population needs to change and not judge every single one to determine if their population makes sense.

Using the above maps, I suggest the following changes to localities, ordered by province:

Vendsyssel-Thy:

• Thisted: Change raw material to wheat, increase population to a number that more adequately represents the population density. Change vegetation to farmland.
• Hjørring: Increase the population, but not as much as Thisted.
• Skagen: I would suggest a change to fish or even salt since Læsø is part of it.

Nørrejylland:

• Aalborg: Change vegetation to grasslands; I think livestock is fine.
• Viborg: Change raw material to wheat.
• Randers: I understand why you chose salt, but I think there is an argument for horses or wheat.

Western Jutland:(I think I saw a comment where you guys already picked up on that naming mistake )

• Ringkøbing: I think fish is fine; amber could be considered.
• Holstebro: Change to livestock or wool.
• Bølling: Unsure about salt, but I don’t know much about the area; could consider livestock and wool, or less likely, amber.
• Varde: Change raw material to something other than wheat; my suggestion is livestock or wool, but amber and fish would not be questioned too much.(Denmark should never have more than one amber province, but one west coast province would not be too illogical. However, I lean more towards fish and livestock.)

Østjylland:(I think I saw a comment where you guys already picked up on that naming mistake )

• Silkeborg: The population needs to go down, not to the levels of Grindsted, but in my mind, it needs to be at least halved. Change vegetation to woods or flatlands. Raw material could be lumber or wheat, as it is about 50% wooded areas with sandy soils, and 50% decent agricultural producing land but not the best. It is not known for livestock.
• Grindsted: To my knowledge, livestock was more a western Jutland thing; could change it to sand. A bit at a loss, as the area is kind of a nowhere area but not quite western Jutland. Change vegetation to flatlands.
• Aarhus: Fine.
• Kolding: Fine.
• Kalø: Fine.

Sønderjylland:I generally think these are fine.

Funen:

• Assens: Argument for farmland vegetation, but grassland is fine. I don’t know about any salt production in the area; would suggest changing to wheat.
• Odense: I would change vegetation to farmland, raw material to legumes (for variety’s sake) or wheat. Argument for some of Assens' population to be moved to Odense, as it also contains islands with high population density and is the larger of the two Funen provinces.
• Nakskov: Change vegetation to farmland, change raw material to legumes (if it represents a higher value good than wheat) or wheat. This is historically the land best suited for non-modern agriculture. Historically, it was owned for quite some time by royal bastard lines, who grew wealthy from their land on this island.

Zealand:

• Kalundborg: Argument for farmland over grassland. I do think the population could be increased a bit. I think it produces medicaments? If that is an agricultural-type good, I think it is fine.
• Ringsted: Fine.
• Roskilde: Fine.
• Helsingør: I would move some of the population elsewhere, change vegetation to woods or grassland. Wheat is fine, but fish would also work. Historically, it’s known for being the king's hunting grounds, so the woods there were preserved, but they’re not exactly extensive.

Malmöhus (if the area is Danish culture, why does it have Swedish spelling?)

• Generally, I think they’re fine. I think the population might be low, but I don’t know where to find it. Why is Malmö spelled in a Swedish way when it's Danish culture?
• Argument for Lund to be wheat/legumes/medicaments.

Göing

• I don’t know much about the area; it looks fine.

Halland:

• Looks decent.
• Varberg: I think I would change from sand to wheat.

Blekinge:

• Sölvesborg (why Swedish spelling when Danish culture?) should have an increased population, not much, but to be above its neighbors.
• Rønneby: I would change vegetation to woods; it’s very rocky there. Wheat is fine though.
• Brekne: Change vegetation to woods; see Rønneby reason.

Should there be a clay producing location?

 

[rapido]

Hi again, some comment on economy and population in the northernmost areas of fenno-scandinavia.

Firstly as some has already mentioned, kven is often tied to the modern finnish speaking population of northern Norway. However in the period when this game take place kven is used by norwegians to describe the finnish population of todays northern Finland. In the primary source material I see the Norwegians mention Kvens, Tavastians and Karelians. The finnish speaking population is never referred to as one group. Which is odd, since these are out-group names which tend to have next to no nuance. In term of language Kven is by finnish people often percieved as just finnish, but spoken poorly. In northern Norway it is however percieved as its own language. This modern population arrived mainly from the Torne Valley in Finland and sweden, but several kvens arrived permanently already from the 1600s. Possible earlier, but I have not seen this (I have looked through almost all the tax records from the time and period). In the research literature these people are often refered to as kvens, or "Finnish speaking". The term Finnish is often avoided, because they predate the finnish national movement and because the Norwegians refer to the sami population as "finns", so the terminology avoids some confusion. The terminology is however hotly debated these days and someone will be angry no matter what.

Here is a map from the book "Samenes historie før 1750" written By Lars Ivar Hansen and Bjørnar Olsen, I will be referencing some maps from this book. A version of this book exists in english as well, but I have just read the norwegian one. This picture show Norwegian fishing villages in 1520. I assume that the authors have used the tax records from 1519 and 1520. This illustrates my earlier point that the coast is quite different from the the fjords and the Inland. Most of these coastal villages also contains a small church, some representatives of traders from Bergen, a priest, a Bailiff and a church warden. The settlements move further inwards during the 17th century, and is mostly placed next to places where the cod spawns. These Norwegian settlements only exported stockfish.

This next map, from a bit further south shows areas where sea-sami people collected tithes, from use of their land. These same areas also has large saami permanent settlements along the fjords. They where mostly combining fishing with some animal husbandry and the occational hunt. Pink means that the saami population where collecting tithes from norwegian fishermen, blue means saami collecting tithes or rent from saami people.

Another point I will make is that the sami population was far more widespread then the current culture map implies. In most of the fjords towards the location named "Birndal" There is a fairly large saami minority. Further south and to Røros (Middle of Norway) and Jemtland there is also a considerable minority, but I will not comment in detail on this, other than that judging by court records and taxation censuses they most certainly where there.

The Language the south sami speak is quite different from northern Sami. Think Swedish-German or something like that. Clearly related but only intelligeble with great effort and some study. By the rest of the population at the time, and certainly by the state they where all considered to be saami. Today most saami people recognize the difference between the southern and northern populations, they still consider themselves sami though.

I have looked through some tax records so I can provide some population figures from the 16th century, I will just use 1567, and some later records to fill inn some gaps. The tax records give each tax paying man, which later sources indicate is roughly 1/5 of the population. So I will provide some figures where I have taken the number of people in 1567, and then multiplied it by five, estimating the total population, location by location. This is the most common way of estimating population from these kind of sources. The population of the area is also assumed to have returned from the black death in this period. Overall the population in this region is tied to the price of stockfish further south. Low prices meaning that people would have to move away to sustain themselves. This is most apperant in Finnmark where the climate is significantly worse than just a bit further south. (eg. Raisa, and Troms).

N: Counted as Norwegians, S: Counted as Saami
Alta -N: 315, S: 190- 315 counted as norwegians (including two scottish men, and some swedes) (Loppa and Sørvær Parish). 190 counted as saami, (Altenby, lerbotten, komagfjord and lerretsfjorden)
Hammerfest -N:1095, S:35 (to low). 35 counted as saami (this is very low, but this tac record is made by the swedish tax collector so he was not really supposed to tax these guys. Later tax records puts the saami population in this area as a bit larger then Porsanger, but smaller then Alta) 1095 - counted as norwegian, this includes some roughly 5 swedish families, as well as two scottish families.
Kautokeino - S; 55 counted as saami (Kautokeino and Lapojervi)
Karasjok - S: 95 counted as saami (Aviovara)
Deatnu -N:315 S:170 85 counted as saami (Tenoby and Utsjoki), also 85 at the coast (Laksefjorden and Tanafjorden) total 170 people. - The tax unit utsjoki refers to a specific place along the tana river where the utsjoki river meets the Tana river. Its a village there, church built there in the 17th century. The Norwegian population lives exclusivly at the outermost coast here as well
Porsanger - S: 85 counted as saami (Porsangerby) This location is only the bottom of the fjord wheras this tax unit cowered the whole fjord. They went to court in Kjelvik, which is in the province Hammerfest as of now.
Vardø -N:800, S:310. 310 counted as saami (This is a large sami settlement sustained by the fisheries close by) There is a shoemaker, priests, a judge, tax collecter and a nobleman here. Around five swedes, some danes, two scotsmen and a dutch guy.
Varanger: S:95 (Neiden and Pasvik). The earliest tax record I found here was from 1593.

The area between the location Varanger and Kola: Petzinka Molouskoj, Prirechnyi, suenokele, Peszneskoi, Mafelskoj has a combined population of 1205 saami in 1593. They all have a mix between traditional saami names and russian-orthodox names. This is according to a Norwegian tax record. There is probably some russian sources on this alas, they are written in the old cyrillic script and not available to western researchers at the present. On the wider question of the culture in the rest of Kola, I think Sami would be a better fit for the population here then Bjarmian. Othere, the viking trader and explorer reporting to king Alfred the great also places the Biarmians on the other side of the white sea from Kola, you can estimate this from the sailing times he reports as well as the directions in his attestation to Alfred.

For the county troms I was able to estimate the following. Norwegian numbers are from the 1567, they are more or less complete with enough detail to match individuals to the locations used in this game. In all these provinces there is some scots and swedes, as well as the occational dane. These might be post-reformation arrivals. The dano-Norwegian authorities are mostly concerned with counting ethnicity in disputed areas towards the russian and swedish border, since the foreigners where claiming to tax the saami people, not the actual land. Lofoten and vesterålen probably also saw a significant sami precence, at the very least during the seasonal fisheries. Here are som population estimates, estimated in the same way from above.

N: Counted as Norwegians, S: Counted as Saami
Raisa S:415 N: 160. I used 1593 records for the sami here, that is the first which gives population with enough detail for this area.
Troms S: 215 (1571, swedish record) N: 1120
Senja S:90 (1571, swedish record) N: 910
Bardodalen S:105 (1571, swedish record)N: 680
Trondenes S:90 (1571, swedish record) N: 1120
Ofoti S: 105 N: 285
Hamarøy S: 230 N: 440
Steigen S: 60 N: 485
Bodø S:70 N: 1220
Langens S:0 N: 2785
Lofotr S:0 N: 2250

Some naming suggestions:
Raisi -- Skjervøy, this was the court place and the main administrative center during early modern times. "Skierfføe" in early modern danish spelling
Bardodalen -- Dyrøy, Alstahaug or Gibostad. These where the main administrative centers found in the location. "Dyrøe, Alstahoug, Gibostad" in danish spelling
Ofoti - Ofoten is consistent with modern and early modern spelling, "Ofoden" in danish.
Lofotr - Lofoten is consistent with early modern spelling, the danes spelled it "Lofodden"
Langenes - This was a fairly populated area, by northern norwegian standards. Vesterålen is the common name used today, with widespread use in the early modern period and earlier. Langenes refers to one particular court place.

I am not that familiar with the administrative details further south, so I could not be bothered to continiue south.

On the Trade goods I believe it should perhaps be even more fish at the coast of Finnmark, in the fjords and further inland furs where often exported. In the 16th century, the sami population often payd their tax with furs, before coinage became common. The location called Alta contains some copper deposits which where known from the 17th century, but not exploited before the 19th century. Alta also provided timber for the western part of Finnmark due to the pinewood in the area. The location called varanger also provided timber, but mostly for the eastern part of Finnmark. The main export good was however stockfish.

During the period most of the trade in the area goes through Bergen, because the authorithies wanted supplies to Finnmark, but where unable to figure it out themselves, so several traders from Bergen agreed to them getting a monopoly in exchange for providing wheat and other equipment to the region. However there are thousands of pages with court documents showing how this did not happen in all kind of ways, illegal traders from Hamburg, Holland, Russia, sweden, and brittain being some of the troublemakers for the traders from Bergen. According to the ledgers I have seen the traders from Bergen where running deficits during the monopolies in Finnmark. But they could have been cooking the books, (they are being sentenced for doing this several times through the period).

Best regards

 

[smurffiix]

Love the map and the new hierarchical system for places, it makes the locations feel more real when they are more connected to each other. As I I haven't commented before so I hope this becomes clear and concise.

I like the way large parts of finland are not in Sweden's control despite the Treaty of Nöteborg, though it does bring up some questions about a couple of placenames. If I’ve read your map correctly most of the coast from Uleåborg to Porvoo is majority swedish. In his book Sveriges Österland (2008) the historian Kari Tarkiainen posits that throughout medieval times finnish was the vast majority even in most “swedishised” (if that’s a word) areas. There were naturally exceptions, with areas that had strong swedish majority, but that the norm was a majority finnish commonfolk even in cities like Åbo. For a long time this was tied to food production. The Swedish and Finnish farming methods differed and the Finns were more reliant on fishing and hunting. This doesn’t mater so much for the place names of for example Åbo and Nystad as they were well under Swedish control, but why would more far off places like Uleåborg and Olofsborg have Swedish names if the majority of the people were Finnish and they weren’t yet under the control of the crown?

Especially Uleåborg and Olofsborg feel out of place since neither fortress had been built 1337. Being built 1590 and 1475 respectively. If you really want to give Uleåborg a Swedish name I think Uleå would probably fit better, but (considering the distance to Sweden the chances of it having a Swedish majority would be less than for example Storkyro) I think Oulu would fit better at the start. On Olofsborg I didn’t find much about the time before the castle was built, so it would perhaps be easiest to name it after the water by which the castle was built. Kyrönsalmi.

On another note. According to Tarkiainen cities like Åbo och Hanko/Hangö (Ekenäs on your map) had sizable Russian and especially German merchant populations. It’s hard to see from your map if they will be included or not.

I’m guessing Nyland and Egentliga Finland are their own provinces since they have so much importance it would mess with late game to have them be included in Tavasteland and Satakunta respectively. On the other hand I don’t understand the division between Inte Österbotten and Österbotten. Wouldn’t it make more sense to divide them into Österbotten and Norra Österbotten (or Österbotten and Pohjois-pohjanmaa?) somewhere around Karleby/Brahestad? It would fit better with the divisions Finland had in the late 1700s.

I would also recommend changing the name Far Karelia to North Karelia. I know it doesn’t quite make sense, but from what I’ve been able to find it’s the more historical.

I also have some thoughts about the cultures. Now, I don’t have any references for this, but I’m pretty sure the Sámi people had a presence more south than Enare and Nunnanen. Also, I think Åland might have been basically Swedish since the viking age.

As a last point, the population around places like Suomussalmi, Paltamo and Sotkamo have never been very high. Now I’m not an expert on exact historical populations throughout history, but I would be surprised if those areas had populations comparable to Valkeasaari and especially higher than Mikkeli. If I’m not mistaken this was one of the last places in Europe for agriculture to become widely adopted.

I hope my feedback could be of use. I would have a final question. Would it be possible to make Tavastia (as Häme) and/or Savo playable tribes? With how Project Caesar handles control it wouldn't be crazy to have them as political entites with very low control on everything but their homelocation. Without some very skilful manoeuvring they would be integrated into the kingdom of Sweden. This could fit the Karelians as well, and also be implemented in other parts of the world.

 

[Danskjävel]

Older is better

Then

Kalundborg --> Kalundæburgh
Helsingør --> Hælsingør
Roskilde --> Roschilde
København --> Hafn/Køpmannæhafn
Ringsted --> Ringstade
Slagelse --> Slauløsæ
Vordingborg --> Worthingburg
NyKøbing (Falster) --> Nykobing
Lolland (or Nakskov) --> Laland (or Nacascogh)
Nyborg --> Nyburg
Svendborg --> Schwineburg
Odense --> Othensuuigensem or Odansue, I'd definately go with the latter
Assens --> Asensz (or maybe just keep it Assens...)
Hjørring --> Heringa/Jhoringy, I'd stick with the latter as it's closer to 1337
Skagen --> Skaffuen
Thisted/Thy --> Tystath/Thiut
Aalborg --> Alaburg
Viborg --> Vvibiærgh (perhaps just go with Vibiærgh)
Randers --> Randeros/Randros (IDK, both feels way too Spanish)
Aarhus --> Aros/Arus
Holstebro --> Holstatbro
Ringkøbing --> Rennumkøpingh
Varde --> Wartwik/Warwath/Warwith
Kolding --> Kaldyng
Ribe --> Ripa
Haderslev --> Hathærslefheret/Hatherslef, latter probably works best

I skipped a few of the locations other have problematized, and some that has been suggested new names for already.


Source:

lex.dk (very useful source for surface level things like short etymological explanations and brief historical overviews. It's the official Danish encyclopedia, just search for the contemporary location names on the site.)

 

[Mar1998]

If Ribe could be split to add Tondern as a location, and Aabenraa could be split to add Sonderburg, I think that would be great given both towns (especially Sonderburg) are of great historical importance but also to more accurately create Northern Schleswig/Southern Jutland county borders. Thanks

 

[Kairaix]

Then

Kalundborg --> Kalundæburgh
Helsingør --> Hælsingør
Roskilde --> Roschilde
København --> Hafn/Køpmannæhafn
Ringsted --> Ringstade
Slagelse --> Slauløsæ
Vordingborg --> Worthingburg
NyKøbing (Falster) --> Nykobing
Lolland (or Nakskov) --> Laland (or Nacascogh)
Nyborg --> Nyburg
Svendborg --> Schwineburg
Odense --> Othensuuigensem or Odansue, I'd definately go with the latter
Assens --> Asensz (or maybe just keep it Assens...)
Hjørring --> Heringa/Jhoringy, I'd stick with the latter as it's closer to 1337
Skagen --> Skaffuen
Thisted/Thy --> Tystath/Thiut
Aalborg --> Alaburg
Viborg --> Vvibiærgh (perhaps just go with Vibiærgh)
Randers --> Randeros/Randros (IDK, both feels way too Spanish)
Aarhus --> Aros/Arus
Holstebro --> Holstatbro
Ringkøbing --> Rennumkøpingh
Varde --> Wartwik/Warwath/Warwith
Kolding --> Kaldyng
Ribe --> Ripa
Haderslev --> Hathærslefheret/Hatherslef, latter probably works best

I skipped a few of the locations other have problematized, and some that has been suggested new names for already.


Source:

lex.dk (very useful source for surface level things like short etymological explanations and brief historical overviews. It's the official Danish encyclopedia, just search for the contemporary location names on the site.)

The location names better also change with age, otherwise the older names gonna look goofy as hell during the last 50-100 years of a campaign

 

[Killerrabbit]

I would suggest some changes to Norway.

1: Adding more impassable areas to reflect the steep mountains that make travel outside of the fjords and coastline near impossible.

• In the map I drew in the Sunnmøre-Alps and parts of Trollheimen as impassable
• The Ålfoten-mountains and the Naustdal-Gjengedal mountains likewise
• The Stølsheimen and Vikafjellet mountains between Sogn and Voss (it's possible to hike over them, but nobody would do this as travel by sea was more practical)
• Not drawn by me on the map but the Dovre and Rondane mountains should also create an large impassable area. In general, it's sufficient to have a single passable connection between eastern Norway and Trøndelag, in the Østerdalen. Then another passable area between Romsdalen and Gudbrandsdalen.

Connection between Eidfjord and Numedal is probably better as a passable tile as marching a army here would have significant attrition. Except for local trade it was much more convenient to travel along the coast by sea.

2. Better fjords.

IRL the fjords are larger and go more inland than in your map. I drew a suggestion of what would make it better.

3. Splitting up Bergenshus and adding some more interesting locations there.
Bergenshus was created later, and is really big as a province... there are 3 very distinct regional identities here that were own administrative regions in 1337.

• Firdafylke (Nordfjord + Sunnfjord - you could call it "Firda" for short.)
  • Kinn (fish) - province that follows the coast, largest population in this region and richest. Has a monastery at the settlement of Selje, and a sizable stone church.
  • Eid (horses) - could also be named "Nordfjord" or "Stryn". Famous for it's "fjording" breed of tough workhorses that were also exported to the islands and iceland.
  • Jølster (timber) - could be part of Kinn, but I think it's better to have it seperate. Smallest population in this region.
• Sygnafylke (Sogn is the modern name for it)
  • Hyllestad (stone)
  • Sogndal (fiber crops) - biggest population in this region
  • Lærdal (fruit) - should have a passage-connection to Hallingdal over Filefjell. This was only a mountain path in 1337, but in the 1600s it was built as a road that could support horses and carts. Still, the main connection between east and west would be to travel by ship.
  • Aurland (fruit) - Could also be named "Vik" as this probably was a larger settlement. Please note that the current province of "Aurland" does not include the actual Aurland.
• Hordafylke (Hordaland)
  • The rest of Bergenshus. Voss should probably have way less population, and the city of Bergen should be the most populous location in Norway in 1337.

The province of "Romsdal" should be renamed "Møre", as the area of Romsdalen is sandwitched in between Nordmøre and Sunnmøre.


4. Norwegian demographics:

The estimate you put in overall matches well. But the distribution is too heavy on eastern Norway, which only in more modern times became populous. In eastern Norway the farms were much larger than in the west and Trøndelag, which could sustain a larger population by heavy emphasis on fishing. There is kinda a source for demographics from 1277, the Leidang recorded by king Magnus Lagabøte - how many large longships each region needed to build, equip and outfit with men. This corresponded roughly to the population. Far inland areas without a river connection were excluded.

Sunnafjeldske: (Eastern Norway, but only the coastal areas + along major rivers) 48

Egdafylke / Agder: 15

Bergenshus: 63

• Firdafylke: 15
• Sygnafylke/Sogn: 16
• Hordafylke: 32

Møre + Romsdal: 40

• Sunnmørafylke: 16
• Nordmørafylke: 16
• Romsdal: 8

Trøndelag: 68

• Naumdøla fylke: 9
• Sparbyggja fylke: 8
• Eynafylki: 7
• Værdølafylki : 5
• Skeynafylki : 5
• Stjørdalsfylki : 8
• Strindøfylki: 8
• Gauldølafylki: 10
• Orkdølafylki: 8

Hålogaland: 13

No leidang in the sami-dominated areas for Romsa/Troms or Finnmark/Finnmarku.

So some people should be moved to reflect this.



The sami:

In general, the sami should be a minority in the northern part of Hedemark, Trøndelag, Nordland; and the majority in Troms/Romsa and Finnmarku/Finnmark.

However, in the locations of Røros, (this changed after the establishement of the copper mines in the 1600’s) Meråker, Snåsa, Lierne and Hattfjelldal they should be a majority or close to it.

There has been extensive assimilation in especially the coastal areas, where the Sea-Sami who were fishermen gradually became norwegian in modern times, while the nomadic reindeer herding sami didn’t assimilate to any major extent.

In 1337 the coastal areas would be a mix of sami and norwegian. There was significant norwegian migration there, especially from the west coast.

Sami names:

Right now the only sami-named location is Deatnu (Tana) and Raisa. If you want only norwegian names then they should be changed. But IMO it would be better to add more sami names, at least where they form a majority. Here is some more:

Kautokeino - > Guovdageaidnu

Karasjok -> Kárášjohka

Porsanger -> Leavdnja

Alta -> Áltá

Bardudalen -> Beardu

Varanger -> Várjjat

While I suggest keeping Hammerfest and Vardø to reflect the attempts of norwegian colonization of the region.

 

[Futski]

Having Ribe being part of Denmark would be a mistake i think. During things like the treaty of Ribe in 1460, it is clear that Ribe is considered part of Slesvig, but it would later become seperated. I cannot quite tell when it became properly intergrated though.

Nope, Ribe was a crown possession, or rather, until the Reformation, the authority was split between the crown and the church.

Ribe as well as Fanø and random bits of a few Wadden Sea islands were outside the duchies.

So with regards to Ribe, it's quite accurate.

 

[Futski]

Given

isn't that what the Control mechanic is for?

Not necessarily. The king can have absolute control over it, while the area is treated as a separate possession.

 

[Killerrabbit]

Not a single salt production location in the whole Scandinavian peninsula? Is it really correct?

Norway produced salt, but did so inefficiently by boiling ocean water, requiring a lot of timber. Gradually this salt was replaced by imports. Salt was 25% of Swedens imports, and for Norway it was probably even higher as the exports of both dried and salted fish became a large industry.

 

[TraditionalistLeo]

Yeah, I'm quite torn on Kven culture as well, I thought it's maybe representing Finnic peoples that lived around Torneå Valley? But I agree with you that maybe Kven is not the best option to represent the people living in Ostrobothnia region and as such Tinto team should perhaps opt for something else.

I read a study of a Finnish historian where he proved with place names that the mysterious "Kvens" were actually Tavastians who moved up to the Torneå valley during the iron age because they ran out of space in Tavastia. Torneå valley had excellent lands for farming and they could get comfortable with trading.

Eventually the Tavastians got in trouble with Novgorod and Sweden, and the Kvens seem to have chosen their own ruler. Even on Wikipedia there's information about how the Kven ruler allied with a Norwegian ruler to attack the Karelians (who were with Novgorod).

Later Kvens obviously mixed with Sapmi, Swedes, Savonians, etc. and ended up under Swedish management.

Ostrobothnians (pohjalaiset) are a different subculture which probably came about when Swedes and people from Finland proper mixed in southern Ostrobothnia. This only happened after Gustav Vasa came into power and cities were founded in the Ostrobothnian coast. I think Paradox could represent them too somehow, but they shouldn't exist at the game start like Kvens.

EDIT: I think this is the study which I had read. He also tries to explain who the Bjarmians were. I recommend reading it! (For those who are not Finns, unfortunately it's written in Finnish.)