Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Inzano]

Has to be noted that there are multiple errors with the hundreds in the top map. Like it includes hundreds from the 18th century like Munkbrarup herrede. In general the area that I know a bit better (the Slesvig duchy) is a complete mess in terms of hundreds on that map and I assume it generally uses much later hundred divisions than 1513. Crucially the border between Slesvig and Holsten is also wrong. The actual border goes between Levenså and old Ejder. Jernved is part of Slesvig. Heck, the northern part of what is Kiel today is part of Slesvig. It's very nicely designed but unfortunately I think there's a lot of errors.

I'm not the author of the map, I just found it on one of the Discord servers and thought it would be good for the Scandinavian thread. The developers are Scandinavians too, so they probably recognize mistakes on the map. But it's good to point out mistakes.

 

[Hamnstad]

I'm not the author of the map, I just found it on one of the Discord servers and thought it would be good for the Scandinavian thread. The developers are Scandinavians too, so they probably recognize mistakes on the map. But it's good to point out mistakes.

I actually think the guy who made the map is also on the forum here somewhere. I know the map from his reddit thread a couple of years back and found that it generally seems to go by much more recent administrative divisions than what you find if you actually read Kong Valdemars Jordebog. I really don't want to criticise it too harshly, he clearly put in a lot of work and it looks very good but it has to be noted that it has a lot of obvious mistakes.

As I pointed out in one of my previous posts the research sharing in the baltic area is not always great. A lot of unis do good historic research and apply forwardthinking methods but it stays largely in their ecosystem. Language barriers probably do not help here. I shared some maps from even credible and talented top researchers with obvious mistakes. I'm very upfront about that my knowledge about Swedish history is much more limited but similarly it would also be rare to find a Swede with a more intricate understanding of Danish history, especially so far back.

It is maybe also worth noting that Paradox makes some similar mistakes to the map. Where the map throws Jernved to Holstein, the current Paradox EU5 map shared in this thread throws Eiderstedt to Dithmarschen (the peninsula on the west which back then I believe was an island).

I have been working on a more detailed map of Denmark in the 14th century in December based on the actual administrative records we have from around that time (both from the monarchy and the church) but it needs a lot more work before I really want to share it anywhere, that's why I find some of this so immediately striking.

I think generally the map is emblematic of a pretty major issue about the 14th century. Our records are not great and often people turn to much later sources to rationalize how it would have looked, even when it contradicts the few contemporary sources from back then that we have.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

I wanted to compile my miscellaneous and scattered map suggestions into one definitive suggestion for the Swedish border in Finland:

Red = Fully owned by Sweden at game start.
Orange = Under various degrees of colonization by Sweden at game start, population mostly Sami with settler pops of swedish and various finnish cultures, total population numbers should be very low (below 500).
Light blue = Possible Viborg fiefdom tag, which I think would be a historically accurate and interesting addition.

Most of the land in Finland outside of these borders should be almost entirely Sami with very low population numbers (50-100 per location). Couple exceptions to this are Joutsa-Itis-Kouvola-Heinola area which could probably have finnish pops (Sysmä area was settled at this time but if it was under Sweden's control is extremely unclear and I couldn't find evidence for it) as well as the Joroinen area near Mikkeli (same deal as with Sysmä in Juva and such). One additional exception is well technically part of Russia Tinto Maps in Karelia so I won't talk about that here.

Sources and more information can be found in all my other posts in this thread, I won't put it all here.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

I wanted to compile my miscellaneous and scattered map suggestions into one definitive suggestion for the Swedish border in Finland:

View attachment 1251446

Red = Fully owned by Sweden at game start.
Orange = Under various degrees of colonization by Sweden at game start, population mostly Sami with settler pops of swedish and various finnish cultures, total population numbers should be very low (below 500).
Light blue = Possible Viborg fiefdom tag, which I think would be a historically accurate and interesting addition.

Most of the land in Finland outside of these borders should be almost entirely Sami with very low population numbers (50-100 per location). Couple exceptions to this are Joutsa-Itis-Kouvola-Heinola area which could probably have finnish pops (Sysmä area was settled at this time but if it was under Sweden's control is extremely unclear and I couldn't find evidence for it) as well as the Joroinen area near Mikkeli (same deal as with Sysmä in Juva and such). One additional exception is well technically part of Russia Tinto Maps in Karelia so I won't talk about that here.

Sources and more information can be found in all my other posts in this thread, I won't put it all here.

Some more maps, this time for culture & religions.

1. "Historically accurate" culture map

This map tries to be as historically accurate to 1337 as possible. At this time, ostrobothnian and savonian identities have not yet formed and settlers in the north retain their original heritage from the lands they came from. I don't think this is ideal unless you want to add dynamic events creating those cultures after some decades pass.

Note the Karelian minority in Uleåborg. There is historical evidence that there was a small population of Karelians living there and that the area was in the sphere of influence of Novgorod after 1323. Didn't stop Sweden from settling it though.

White = Finns proper (Egentliga finns/varsinaissuomalaiset, includes Satakunta finns)
Orange = Tavastian (Hämäläiset)
Light blue = Swedish
Light green = Karelian (Karjalaiset)
Yellow = Sami (Saamelaiset/Lappalaiset)

2. Better gameplay/More cultures

This map uses anachronistic ostrobothnian and savonian cultures, which I think is a good idea. Some accuracy sacrificed for simplicity's sake.

White = Finns proper (Egentliga finns/varsinaissuomalaiset, includes Satakunta finns)
Orange = Tavastian (Hämäläiset)
Light blue = Swedish
Light green = Karelian (Karjalaiset)
Yellow = Sami (Saamelaiset/Lappalaiset)
Brown = Ostrobothnian (Kven/Kainulaiset/Pohjalaiset)
Red = Savonian (Savolax/Savolaiset)

3. Religions

Yellow = Catholic
Orange = Sami Shamanism
Red = Orthodoxy
Light Blue = Finnic paganism

This map is more vague because it's impossible to know for sure where the line between a "catholic" and a "pagan" goes in this period as there was a lot of syncretism. So I've put paganism mostly in areas that are on the edge of Tavastia or that were recently taken from Novgorod, as Novgorod seems to have been less eager to fully convert the Karelians (evidenced by Finnic mythology surviving for longer among them even until the 19th century) than the Catholics were (a lot of violent crusades were launched to "reconvert" finns who had abandoned catholicism for paganism). Also, it is not clear how quickly Sweden converted orthodox practitioners in the lands they had taken before the treaty of Nöteborg, so the line between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is also very blurry.

Sami shamanism should obviously be exclusive to Sami culture, and an ethnic religion.

Again, sources can be found in my earlier posts in this thread. In general, I've tried to use local sources like wikipedia pages about municipalities and municipal websites, as well as whatever online sources are available, so take it all with a big grain of salt as I am too lazy to go and read academic literature for a video game.

 

[Slime99]

I would honestly merge FInns Proper and Tavastians, trying to delineate their border is an unnecessary pain and their archaeological culture was very much the same. This is mostly if Savonian is merged with Karelian which I can also get behind at the time. Eitherway I don't think Kvenish should be a culture as it arbitrarily incorporates Karelians in some locations but not in others for some reason and it is largely redundant with representing Tavastians and Finns proper in the area. The biggest gripe I have with the culture is that it chooses to represent both Finns in Northern Ostrobothnia and Norbotten AND Finns in Osrobothnia and Southern Ostrobothnia, areas which were settled centuries before by Finns.

 

[Slime99]

To see what I mean with Southern Ostrobothnia

Kyrönjoen suuseudun rautakautisen kulttuurikeskuksen hävittyä vuoden 800 tienoilla jäi seutu avoimeksi etelästä tuleville erämiehille ja uudisasukkaille. Suoranaista asutuskatkoa ei tule olettaa mutta pitkään Etelä-Pohjanmaan väestöä edustivat ilmeisesti lappalaiset. Muinaislöytöjen puutteesta on päätelty, että hämäläisten muutto alueelle on tapahtunut aluksi hitaasti. Alueesta muodostui Sastamalan, Pirkkalan ja Kyrön nautinta-aluetta, Kyrön suunnasta Kyrönjoen seutu on saanut hämäläiset asukkaansa. Uudisasutus on todennäköisesti ollut vilkasta 1100-luvulla. Asutus eteni Kyrönjokivarren lisäksi 1200-luvun alkupuolella myös toisiin jokilaaksoihin nykyisten Laihian ja Vöyrin alueille sekä hieman myöhemmin myös Lapualle. (Vrt. Luukko 1950 s. 5, 40-41, 68-75.)

Pohjanmaan kyröläiset asuttajat lienevät lähtöpaikoillaan joutuneet kristinuskon vaikutuspiiriin, katolinen kirkko on järjestänyt Pohjanmaan uuden asutuksen oloja lähes alusta saakka. Alueen hallinnollinen järjestely on muodostunut myöhäisintään 1200-luvun alkupuolella, vuosisadan jälkipuolella perustettiin Kyrön naapuriin Pietarsaaren ja Mustasaaren kirkkopitäjät. Myöhempi hallinto- ja käräjäpitäjäjako rakentui kirkollisen aluejaon pohjalle. (Vrt. Luukko 1950 s. 147, 150, 165.)

Pohjankyrön hajaantumisaalto tapahtui 1500-luvun alussa, kun ensin Vöyri irrotettiin siitä ja Mustasaaresta omaksi kirkkopitäjäkseen ja tämän jälkeen Laihialle ja Ilmajoelle perustettiin omat kappeliseurakunnat. Vöyri erottautui pian myös omaksi hallintopitäjäkseen. Suurin piirtein 1500-luvun puolivälistä 1600-luvun alkuun ulottuvalla ajanjaksolla Ilmajoki, Laihia ja Lapua itsenäistyivät sekä kirkollisesti että hallinnollisesti. (Luukko 1950 s. 186-188, 384-386, 460-463.) Vuonna 1607 hallitus ryhtyi jakamaan Pohjanmaan suuria pitäjiä edelleen ja Vähäkyrö erotettiin kirkkopitäjäksi. Hallinnollinen jako seurasi jälleen perästä ja entisestä Pohjankyröstä jäi jäljelle Isonkyrön pitäjä. (Luukko 1945 s. 316–318.)

Hallinto ja aluejako

Kyrön alue kuului vanhastaan Hämeeseen, joka ulottui nykyisen Helsingin seudulta Pohjanlahden rannikolle. Ydin-Kyrö siirtyi Hämeestä hallinnollisesti Satakuntaan, joka mainitaan kirjeessä sinetillä 1331 (kopio Turun tuomiokirkon Mustassa kirjassa) ja on jakautuneena kahteen kihlakuntaan 1540. Kyröläiset olivat velvoitettuja kantamaan veroja Tyrvään kivikirkon rakentamiseen. Vastineeksi kyröläisille oli osoitettu oma paikka Tyrvään Pyhän Olavin kirkossa. Nykyään Ydin-Kyröön kuuluneet kunnat Viljakkala, Hämeenkyrö, Ikaalinen, Parkano, Kihniö, Kankaanpää, Jämijärvi, Karvia ja Honkajoki sekä Pomarkun Tuunajärven ja Siikaisten Sammin kylät kuuluvat Luoteis-Pirkanmaan ja Pohjois-Satakunnan seutukuntiin.

Kyrö eriytyi varhain Pohjankyröön ja eteläosan Hämeenkyröön. Yhä on nähtävissä näitten kahden alueen välissä harvemmin asutettu erämaa-alue, osa vanhaa suunnatonta Hämeenmetsää. Väestö keskittyi Suur-Kyrössä etelä- ja pohjoisosiin, mikä edesauttoi eriytymistä.

Hämeenkyrö jakautui 1641 Hämeenkyrön ja Ikaalisten kirkkoherrakunniksi, jako muodostui myös kunnallishallinnolliseksi perustaksi. Ikaalinen jakautui Kankaanpään eriytyessä kappeliseurakunnaksi 1775 ja kunnaksi 1865. Samana vuonna myös Karvia itsenäistyi Ikaalisista omaksi kunnaksi ja Honkajoki ja Parkano 1867. Kihniö puolestaan itsenäistyi Parkanosta 1918. Hämeenkyröstä 1874 irtaantunut Viljakkala yhdistyi kuntaliitoksella Ylöjärveen 2007. Viimeisenä Ikaalisista itsenäistyi Jämijärvi 1899.

Väestö

Väestöä Kyröön on esitetty tulleen Kyrösjärven vesistön kautta Sastamalasta ja Pirkkalasta. Ydinkyröläiset ovat etnisesti, kulttuurisesti ja puheenparreltansa hämäläisiä. Etelä-Pohjanmaan Pohjankyrö on saanut asutusta myös Ruotsista ja Savosta. Asutusvirta kulki Kyrönkangasta ja Kyrönjokea pitkin. Savolaisia tuli eritoten itäisiin ja pohjoisiin osiin, joitten asutus ei ollut yhtä vakiintunutta ja tiivistä kuin Kyrön eteläosassa. Vanhastaan alueella on asunut lappalaisia. Vielä 1600-luvulla myös Ydin-Kyrön pohjoisosissa mm. Sydänmaalla sanotaan tunnetun lappalaissukuja, jotka ovat sulautuneet valtaväestöön (Papunen 1996 s. 163, ks. Huurre 1971 s. 25).

Kyrön keskiaikainen pitäjä

Kyrö on kyröläisten jo varhain Hämeenkyröksi ja Pohjankyröksi jakaantuneen alueen vanha nimitys.

www.messon.fi

 

[Slime99]

I would make Fredrikshamn Tavastian, as Kymenlaakso is considered to have been Tavastian.

 

[Slime99]

My suggestion for Central and Northern Ostrobothnia

Mostly based on this map of 1650

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Pohjois-Pohjanmaa_1650.jpg

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

I would make Fredrikshamn Tavastian, as Kymenlaakso is considered to have been Tavastian.

I wasn’t sure how far east they should be, it was a bit unclear in the sources i looked at if Vehkalahti (what the name of the location should be) was settled from the west or the east.

It was a headache in general to find information about the entire area between Tavastian and Karelian cultural spheres (modern day Kymenlaakso and Päijät-Häme) during the 14th century. If you have a good source for it I’d love to read it.

 

[Slime99]

I wasn’t sure how far east they should be, it was a bit unclear in the sources i looked at if Vehkalahti (what the name of the location should be) was settled from the west or the east.

It was a headache in general to find information about the entire area between Tavastian and Karelian cultural spheres (modern day Kymenlaakso and Päijät-Häme) during the 14th century. If you have a good source for it I’d love to read it.

Perinteisen kuvan Vehkalahden asutushistoriasta on muokannut ansioitunut historian tutkija Ragnar Rosén. Asutushistoria kuitenkin muuttuu ja tarkentuu jatkuvasti uudempien tutkimusmenetelmien ansioista.

Kymenlaakson alueella maanviljelyn harjoittaminen pääasiallisena elinkeinona on saattanut alkaa vasta noin 1000 vuotta sitten, kun vesireittien varsille asettuneiden yhteisöjen asuinpaikat näyttävät arkeologisen aineiston perusteella muuttuneen pysyvämmiksi. Haminan muinaisjäännöksiä vuonna 2006 inventoineen Johanna Enqvistin mukaan nuoremmalle rautakaudelle (n. 600–1300 jKr.) ajoittuvien löytöjen silmiinpistävä vähäisyys ei välttämättä osoita asutuksen väliaikaista katoamista vaan pikemminkin tutkimuksellista aukkoa.

Ilmeisesti vanhempi hämäläisasutus on rautakaudelta. Asutuskauden viimeinen vaihe kattoi ruotsalaisen väestön muuton saaristoon ja rannikolle, samoin pitäjän pohjoiskulmaa asuttaneen huhtakaskiväestön. Ajanjakson tärkein kulttuuriympäristöön liittyvä muistomerkkion seudun paikannimistö, esim. vanhat kylien, jokien, järvien ja saarten nimet. Oman eritysryhmän muodostaa tällöin vanha ruotsinkielinen aines (Summanjoen laakso, Kirkkojärvenympäristö), muisto seudulle 1300-luvun alussa asettuneesta ja sittemmin suomalaistuneesta väestöstä. Kaskialueen nimistö puolestaan on tyystin suomenkielinen ja viittaa Lappeen suunnalta tulleeseen asutukseen. Muuttoliike kytkeytyy taustaltaan laajempaan slaavien asettumiseen Suomenlahden lähialueille ja tulokkailta saatuihin kulttuurivaikutteisiin.

Asutushistoria on yhteydessä taloushistoriaan, mikä heijastuu asuinpaikan valintaan. Erämies arvioi paikkoja omalla tavallaan, maa- ja karjatalouden harjoittaja omallaan ja merenkulkija ja kauppamies puolestaan omallaan.

https://www.hamina.fi/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Kulttuuriymparistoohjelma_2008_yleinen_09122010-1.pdf

 

[Capitano Diego Alatriste]

As apiary products/beeswax has been added to the game I started to think where in Finland could be best place for that. Maybe unfortunately it seems, that there were no honeybees in Finland untill they were brought here around 1750. First proper production of apiary goods started in Turku and then it did spread, mostly in Finland Proper area, places neighboring Turku.
Some sources:
This website is in Finnish, but has swedish language option.
Study from university of Tampere. It is about honey production in early 1900s, but it has opening that tells about earlier history. And it is in finnish.

So beeswax as starting good would not be historical for Finland, but maybe there could be event or decision after 1700 where you could spend some money to change the raw good, maybe for Turku and one other location around it. There could be for example small flavour event for the owner of Finland proper that tells that "Professor Pehr Kalm brought honeybees from Sweden to University of Turku, and from there honey production started to spread in Finland" (Source is the upper link before). Then there could be two options in the event, like "good for him!" which gives some small reward and other "historical" option to spend some money to change the raw good of Turku and other random location around it.

In the topic of changing raw good I did also think about potatoes and at least in finnish wikipedia says that first potatoes did come to Inkoo, which is in Nyland between Raseborg and Sjundeå. Also Asikkalas, which is close to Tavastehus, chaplain Axel did promote potatoes wery eagerly. So I think that if there will be some events to change some raw good to potatoes, when they will come to Europe, they should be changing around Nyland and Tavastland mostly, and after 1700. And it is ok if some locations have lumber rawgood which turns to potato, because in Finland it was common to burn the forests to fields, so not every new potato would make other crops/food related rawgoods to disappear.

Picture of the finnish potato wikipedia page: