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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
SCA_countries.png

Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

sca_northlocations.png

sca_eastlocations.png

sca_westlocations.png

sca_centralocations.png


sca_southlocations.png

While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
sca_provinces.png

We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
sca_topography.png

It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
sca_vegetation.png

There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
sca_climate.png

Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
sca_culture.png

Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
sca_religion.png


The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
sca_rawmaterials.png

It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
sca_market.png

Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
sca_pop.png



Not many people live up in the north..
sca_eastpops.png


sca_west_pops.png

sca_south_pops.png

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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My opinion might be slightly skewed since I am half scanian and half northerner, however the large amount of locations in the northern areas of sweden that is extremely sparsely populated compared to the few provinces in the highly populated south strikes me as odd. As an example, Höör, or Hörgh as it would be spelled at the time, could be of strategic importance due to the large quantity of sandstone that has been mined there since the 1100, being where all the stone for Lunds domkyrka was mined as an example. There are also other old cities like ystad
 
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Will this game have a TAB short key to quickly go from zoom 100% to zoom 5% etc. Like in Victoria III ?
as a EU4 veteran player this was the most satisfying and easing feature that I've encountered playing Vicky 3.
 
its like 100 or 150 in each location.
Would really appreciate a screenshot! That sounds about right for Finnmark, but way too low for Lofoten and Helgeland. I want to compare it properly with the census from 1769 for detailed data and good estimates from the 1600s (when Norway's population was back to around the same level as before the Black death).
 
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My opinion might be slightly skewed since I am half scanian and half northerner, however the large amount of locations in the northern areas of sweden that is extremely sparsely populated compared to the few provinces in the highly populated south strikes me as odd. As an example, Höör, or Hörgh as it would be spelled at the time, could be of strategic importance due to the large quantity of sandstone that has been mined there since the 1100, being where all the stone for Lunds domkyrka was mined as an example. There are also other old cities like ystad
I have the same feeling to an extent. In Zealand, born and raised, it is odd not to have the cities of Næstved and Sorø represented. However, I do get that there has to be a limit to the granularity. Sorø is located a stone's throw from Ringsted. Næstved is one of the regions oldest privileged cities and remained important throughout the period. Even today it is one of Zealand's largest cities.
My feeling is that it is just too difficult to get that level of granularity.
 
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You sure you didnt mess Blekinge up? The only Brekne I know I Bärkne, and thats west of Ronnyby not east. So maybe you mixed up the names of Ronneby and Brekne?
 
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We'll we get to see Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands?

Re: Finland
- You can just call Finland Proper "Finland" at this time assuming there's no other subdivision in the game called "Finland", this shouldn't cause any confusion. I also feel like Åland should be part of it rather than Uppland, given how, for instance it was also part of the Grand Duchy of Finland, but I'm not too sure about which subdivision it was in at the time.
- "Suomenusko", like "Romuva", is also the name of a neopagan movement, but it also just means "Finnish Faith", so I don't have as much of an issue with it ("Finnic/Kalevic Paganism would be preferable though). If it is a thing, then I don't know why Ingrians and Veps are still shown as just animist, probably an oversight.
- In the same vein, why not call Norse Paganism either Forn Sið ("old custom") or Heiðinn Sið ("heathen custom"), which is what it was refered to as in Old Norse?
- I'm pretty sure that the Swedish control of Finland at this time is a lot larger than you've shown here, I was half-expecting that you guys were going to make the different Finnish tribes into tags based on the fact that you've decided to show so little direct Swedish control, but that appears to not be the case unless I've missed something. I've even just realized that you appear to show Swedish pops in places outside of Swedish control.
- Kven culture should probably be renamed to "Ostrobothnian".
- I also think that Finnish culture is probably a bit too big, it appears to include a lot of traditional Tavastian and Ostrobothnian lands (that is, places that still speak Tavastian and Ostrobothnian dialects to this day), but I don't know if Tavastians and Ostrobothnians were already being assimilated at this time. Someone else can probably dump some research on here so corroborate/dispell what I said.

I remember there was a post that articulated all of my complaints perfectly, I just can't seem to find it. I'm hoping it has already been posted and I just haven't noticed it yet.
I otherwise agree with everything you said, but I don't think "Ostrobothnians" existed in the middle ages. They were formed when people from Finland Proper, Swedes, Tavastians and Laplanders mixed together.

Kven culture definitely was a thing back in the middle ages in Ostrobothnia and Lapland: in the iron ages Tavastians ran out of space in the south and travelled to live in the vast lands of the north, they became the Kvens.
 
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I have the same feeling to an extent. In Zealand, born and raised, it

My feeling is that it is just too difficult to get that level of granularity.

Zealand island is 7000 km² according to wiki, so in most of the regions discussed thus far, it would be 7 or 8 locations. Right now it's four. So there's definitely room to add granularity.
 
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Regarding Denmark

I see the location with Copenhagen is called Roskilde which makes sense in 1337 but will it change as Copenhagen becomes the major town?

The Kalø location is named after the Kalø castle it seems but aren't most location named after towns/villages? Alternatives could be Grenaa or Ebeltoft (preferably Ebeltoft. It got Market Town status 1301 where Grenaa only got it in 1445)

For provinces as mentioned by others Østjylland and Western Jutland are opposite. Also the naming is a weird mix of Danish and English. Historically and geographically Lolland-Falster (Nakskov) should be under the Zealand province but I understand the decision it if Funen would have too few locations.

For trade goods it was mostly different types of grains (Rye, barley, oats and small amounts of wheat). Livestock wasn't too prevalent as it was necessary to mainly have grain production to sustain the relatively large population Denmark had at this time (livestock is less efficient in terms of calories). Legumes I'm not sure was produced in any relevant amount. So maybe cut back on Livestock and Legumes and add more crops. Nice to see that the Skåne Market is represented with fish in Malmö as it was very lucrative.
Many of the churches built in Denmark were built from stone imported from Gotland so maybe stone should be produced there.

For population it seems to be very low compared to the sources I could find. The University of Aarhus mentions a population of at least 1,200,000 in the early 13th century and about 950,000 just before the black death. So 711,000 sounds quite low.

Sources:
https://danmarkshistorien.dk/perioder/senmiddelalderen-1340-1523/befolkningen-og-samfundsgrupper (this one is in Danish)
 
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I feel you're making a mistake when it comes to topgraphy, it's not how high above the ocean you are but the change in elevation. That's what determines when there are barriers and chokepoints. Sweden ends up being increadibly boring topographically this way.
 
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Great work as always! I am very happy to see that Finnish region actually got its own religion instead of being generic Animist or entirely Christian. The splitting of Finnish culture into many regional ones is also a welcome addition, though I think maybe "Bothnian" or similar culture could be added to the western parts of Finland? I tried to make an illustration of this, but maybe someone actually living in the area could correct me if this is unnecessary or somehow wrong.

Finland_new_culture.png


I would also like to ask about the presence of Swedish culture in Western Finland. By 1337 Swedes had definitely settled along the western and southern coasts of Finland, but did Swedish-majority areas actually reach as far inland as is implied here? Are there some sources for this? (Or maybe @Johan had something to do with this ;) )

Regarding vegetation, the forest coverage could perhaps be a little more sparse in the southernmost parts of Finland. The map below shows the estimated area of natural / untouched forests in Finland in 1000 and 1550 along with rough population estimates.

suomalainen_aarniometsä.png

Source: Keto-Tokoi P. & Kuuluvainen T. (2010). Suomalainen aarniometsä. (In English: Finnish Primeval Forest).

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this large impassable terrain within Karelia. It is true, that due to its remote location, Sweden and Novgorod/Russia couldn't exert much control in this area during a large part of the game's timespan, but terrain-wise it is similar to the lands around it. The area's river and lake network was used since the Middle Ages by Norse traders and "Finnish" hunters alike to get from the Baltic Sea to the White Sea, so I don't think the impassable terrain's existence is entirely justified.

impassable_terrain.png


Lastly I want to bring up something that may not be entirely within the scope of Tinto Maps and that is the change of ethnic/cultural makeup of Kainuu and Northern Ostrobothnia regions in the 1400s - 1600s. During this time, people from Savonia and Central Ostrobothnia started to migrate further north mainly in search of new farmland, but also due to tax exemptions granted to new settlers by the Swedish Crown. This movement ended up pushing the existing Karelian and remaining Sami populations, who had used these lands mainly for hunting and reindeer herding, out of the region. I wonder if there will be some mechanics related to this, where Sweden or Novgorod/Russia could support either Savonians and/or Karelians in their efforts to populate the region? Below is a picture that illustrates the movements of peoples during different times (pardon the quality, I took this picture with a phone from a physical book).

history_of_kuhmo.png

Source: Wilmi J. (2003). Kuhmon historia. (In English: the History of Kuhmo).

More in-depth information on the Savonian settlement of Kainuu can also be found from this text by Jorma Keränen: https://jyx.jyu.fi/handle/123456789/75370 , but sadly the text is in Finnish... :(

Edit: There also seems to be missing a few Finnish localizations in location names.
  • Uleåborg -> Oulu (or is this due to Swedish culture being a majority and also why is Swedish majority here?)
  • Kaustby -> Kaustinen
  • Lappo -> Lapua
  • Storkyro -> Isokyrö
  • Kajana -> Kajaani
  • Idensalmi -> Iisalmi
  • Olofsborg -> Savonlinna (or maybe Olavinlinna?)
  • Jäskis -> Jääski
I wrote this comment mainly to bring some insights on Finland from a local. I really hope this information is of help to you!
 
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I feel you're making a mistake when it comes to topgraphy, it's not how high above the ocean you are but the change in elevation. That's what determines when there are barriers and chokepoints. Sweden ends up being increadibly boring topographically this way.
I agree with the sentiment. Eastern Finland is rather hilly and rugged, but is represented as ”flatlands” since the hills don’t surpass 500 meter in height.
 
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Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

View attachment 1165160
View attachment 1165161
View attachment 1165162
View attachment 1165163

View attachment 1165164
While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
View attachment 1165169
We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
View attachment 1165173
It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
View attachment 1165174
There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
View attachment 1165176
Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
View attachment 1165177
Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
View attachment 1165181
Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
View attachment 1165182


Not many people live up in the north..

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
can we get population numbers in Finnmark?
 
There should be no Bjarmians in East Karelia or Lapland. Those areas are best replaced with Saami. On top of this I don't think the Kven culture should exist 1337 and shouldn't be called Kven not to confuse it with the actual Finnmark Kvens which formed far later. Saami should cover most if not all of Northern Ostrobothnia and Kainuu. I also think that interior East Karelia should be filled with locations it makes no sense for it to be a wasteland considering it doesn't really differ in it's suitability for the movement of troops as eastern Finland.
 
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Also Jemtish as a language exists to this day shouldn't they be a culture then? Maybe also Scanian?
 
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Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

View attachment 1165160
View attachment 1165161
View attachment 1165162
View attachment 1165163

View attachment 1165164
While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
View attachment 1165169
We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
View attachment 1165173
It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
View attachment 1165174
There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
View attachment 1165176
Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
View attachment 1165177
Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
View attachment 1165181
Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
View attachment 1165182


Not many people live up in the north..

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
Lots of things wrong in Finland:

1. ⁠No marshes, most of inland should be marshes. Finland has tons of Marshes.
2. ⁠Wht are locations localised while the Provinces are in Swedish, English and Finnish? Either both should be localised or neither.
3. ⁠Inre Österbotten isn’t a thing, that should be renamed to Kainuu or Southern Lappland. Also Egentligen Finland should be just Finland as that region was the region of Finland in the Swedish realm.
4. ⁠Finnish culture being around the regions where Tavastians live and thd Tavastian culture being split is weird. They should be merged to either Finnish or Tavastian.
5. ⁠Swedish should only be the Majority in Egentligen Finland, everywhere else it should be a ruling minority. The Ostrobothnian swedes hadn’t settled there by this point.
6. ⁠Inpassable Forests in Karelia and Kola are dumb, those clearly exist to make modern day borders easier to achieve. Those should be removed as those were just very rural areas.
 
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Great work as always! I am very happy to see that Finnish region actually got its own religion instead of being generic Animist or entirely Christian. The splitting of Finnish culture into many regional ones is also a welcome addition, though I think maybe "Bothnian" or similar culture could be added to the western parts of Finland? I tried to make an illustration of this, but maybe someone actually living in the area could correct me if this is unnecessary or somehow wrong.

View attachment 1165300

I would also like to ask about the presence of Swedish culture in Western Finland. By 1337 Swedes had definitely settled along the western and southern coasts of Finland, but did Swedish-majority areas actually reach as far inland as is implied here? Are there some sources for this? (Or maybe @Johan had something to do with this ;) )

Regarding vegetation, the forest coverage could perhaps be a little more sparse in the southernmost parts of Finland. The map below shows the estimated area of natural / untouched forests in Finland in 1000 and 1550 along with rough population estimates.

View attachment 1165319
Source: Keto-Tokoi P. & Kuuluvainen T. (2010). Suomalainen aarniometsä. (In English: Finnish Primeval Forest).

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this large impassable terrain within Karelia. It is true, that due to its remote location, Sweden and Novgorod/Russia couldn't exert much control in this area during a large part of the game's timespan, but terrain-wise it is similar to the lands around it. The area's river and lake network was used since the Middle Ages by Norse traders and "Finnish" hunters alike to get from the Baltic Sea to the White Sea, so I don't think the impassable terrain's existence is entirely justified.

View attachment 1165327

Lastly I want to bring up something that may not be entirely within the scope of Tinto Maps and that is the change of ethnic/cultural makeup of Kainuu and Northern Ostrobothnia regions in the 1400s - 1600s. During this time, people from Savonia and Central Ostrobothnia started to migrate further north mainly in search of new farmland, but also due to tax exemptions granted to new settlers by the Swedish Crown. This movement ended up pushing the existing Karelian and remaining Sami populations, who had used these lands mainly for hunting and reindeer herding, out of the region. I wonder if there will be some mechanics related to this, where Sweden or Novgorod/Russia could support either Savonians and/or Karelians in their efforts to populate the region? Below is a picture that illustrates the movements of peoples during different times (pardon the quality, I took this picture with a phone from a physical book).

View attachment 1165337
Source: Wilmi J. (2003). Kuhmon historia. (In English: the History of Kuhmo).

More in-depth information on the Savonian settlement of Kainuu can also be found from this text by Jorma Keränen: https://jyx.jyu.fi/handle/123456789/75370 , but sadly the text is in Finnish... :(

I wrote this comment mainly to bring some insights on Finland from a local. I really hope this information is of help to you!
Kven is standin for "Bothnian" but they shouldn't exist yet as the settlement of Ostrobothnia was from several sources and lasted for a long time. Even today eastern Ostrobothnia is Savo speaking and Western Ostrobothnia has Western dialects.
1721394976364.png
 
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