• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
SCA_countries.png

Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

sca_northlocations.png

sca_eastlocations.png

sca_westlocations.png

sca_centralocations.png


sca_southlocations.png

While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
sca_provinces.png

We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
sca_topography.png

It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
sca_vegetation.png

There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
sca_climate.png

Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
sca_culture.png

Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
sca_religion.png


The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
sca_rawmaterials.png

It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
sca_market.png

Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
sca_pop.png



Not many people live up in the north..
sca_eastpops.png


sca_west_pops.png

sca_south_pops.png

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
  • 166Like
  • 66Love
  • 6
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:
So all those blank territories at the north and in Finland... Are those different tribes living there? I suppose they are not playable and will be different from American natives, right?
 
On the Swedish pops issue:

I did some calculations.



The total population of Finland, including the provinces of Egentliga Finland, Satakunta, Österbotten, Nyland, Karelia, Tavastia, Savonia, Far Karelia, Inre Österbotten, and the Åland islands is 123,670. Of that population, 62,573 pops live in locations that are Swedish-majority and Finnish-minority. An additional 11,630 live in Finnish-majority Swedish-minority locations, as stripes on the map indicate.



Assuming that the aforementioned Swedish-majority provinces are on average 67% Swedish and the Swedish-minority provinces are 33% Swedish on average, and that the non-stripes provinces are 0% Swedish, we get a total of 45 672 Swedish pops in Finland. That is almost exactly 37.00% of the total Finnish population, or more than twice that of the 17th century peak. These are just estimation, but it gives a rough picture of what the real number likely is.



In other words, for any resemblence of historical accuracy, the number of Swedish pops shouls be less than half of what they are right now. If the 37% figure is accurate, I’d cut the number by two thirds and distribute that to the relevant local Finnic culture.
I agree that the amount of Swedish pops should be toned down. My first thoughts were that maybe the larger size of locations gives a wrong impression, but if your calculations are anywhere near correct, I think Paradox should definitely reconsider these numbers... By 1337 much of these areas had been under Swedish control for about a century so these numbers feel definitely off.
 
  • 10Like
  • 3
Reactions:
I agree that the amount of Swedish pops should be toned down. My first thoughts were that maybe the larger size of locations gives a wrong impression, but if your calculations are anywhere near correct, I think Paradox should definitely reconsider these numbers... By 1337 much of these areas had been under Swedish control for about a century so these numbers feel definitely off.
This also includes parts of Finland not under Swedish control. The part of Finland under Sweden is nearly 50% Swedish.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Great work as always! I am very happy to see that Finnish region actually got its own religion instead of being generic Animist or entirely Christian. The splitting of Finnish culture into many regional ones is also a welcome addition, though I think maybe "Bothnian" or similar culture could be added to the western parts of Finland? I tried to make an illustration of this, but maybe someone actually living in the area could correct me if this is unnecessary or somehow wrong.

View attachment 1165300

I would also like to ask about the presence of Swedish culture in Western Finland. By 1337 Swedes had definitely settled along the western and southern coasts of Finland, but did Swedish-majority areas actually reach as much inland as is implied here? Are there some sources for this? (Or maybe @Johan had something to do with this ;) )

Regarding vegetation, the forest coverage could perhaps be a little more sparse in the southernmost parts of Finland. The map below shows the estimated area of natural / untouched forests in Finland in 1000 and 1550 along with rough population estimates.

View attachment 1165319
Source: Keto-Tokoi P. & Kuuluvainen T. (2010). Suomalainen aarniometsä. (In English: Finnish Primeval Forest).

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this large impassable terrain within Karelia. It is true, that due to its remote location, Sweden and Novgorod/Russia couldn't exert much control in this area during a large part of the game's timespan, but terrain-wise it is similar to the lands around it. The area's river and lake network was used since the Middle Ages by Norse traders and "Finnish" hunters alike to get from the Baltic Sea to the White Sea, so I don't think the impassable terrain's existence is entirely justified.

View attachment 1165327

Lastly I want to bring up something that may not be entirely within the scope of Tinto Maps and that is the change of ethnic/cultural makeup of Kainuu and Northern Ostrobothnia regions in the 1400s - 1600s. During this time, people from Savonia and Central Ostrobothnia started to migrate further north mainly in search of new farmland, but also due to tax exemptions granted to new settlers by the Swedish Crown. This movement ended up pushing the existing Karelian and remaining Sami populations, who had used these lands mainly for hunting and reindeer herding, out of the region. I wonder if there will be some mechanics related to this, where Sweden or Novgorod/Russia could support either Savonians and/or Karelians in their efforts to populate the region? Below is a picture that illustrates the movements of peoples during different times (pardon the quality, I took this picture with a phone from a physical book).

View attachment 1165337
Source: Wilmi J. (2003). Kuhmon historia. (In English: the History of Kuhmo).

More in-depth information on the Savonian settlement of Kainuu can also be found from this text by Jorma Keränen: https://jyx.jyu.fi/handle/123456789/75370 , but sadly the text is in Finnish... :(

I wrote this comment mainly to bring some insights on Finland from a local. I really hope this information is of help to you!
The Kven culture should just be removed and replaced by Ostrobothnian. The name Kven is pretty mysterious and it was never/almost never used after the Viking age. The traditional Finnish tribe identities don't include Kven and historically the areas inhabited by Kven in the PC map were inhabited by Ostrobothnians. Nowadays the only people that are called Kven are Finnish descended people living in Finnmark. Having Kvens exist as a culture at game start is borderline pseudohistory as far as I know.

The devs also equate Kven to Meänkieli for some reason. Meänkieli did not begin to form until 1809, when Finland became part of Russia and the Finnish speakers west of the Tornio river were separated from the rest of the Finns. Additionally the border of the Swedish and Finnish languages is too far to the west. I remember reading it was at the river Kalix, though I can't find any sources for language borders right now.

1721395260621.png

Suomalaiset = Finns
Hämäläiset = Tavastians
Pohjalaiset = Ostrobothnians
Savolaiset = Savonians
Karjalaiset = Karelians
Saamelaisia = Sámi
 
  • 4
  • 3
Reactions:
The Kven culture should just be removed and replaced by Ostrobothnian. The name Kven is pretty mysterious and it was never/almost never used after the Viking age. The traditional Finnish tribe identities don't include Kven and historically the areas inhabited by Kven in the PC map were inhabited by Ostrobothnians. Nowadays the only people that are called Kven are Finnish descended people living in Finnmark. Having Kvens exist as a culture at game start is borderline pseudohistory as far as I know.

The devs also equate Kven to Meänkieli for some reason. Meänkieli did not begin to form until 1809, when Finland became part of Russia and the Finnish speakers west of the Tornio river were separated from the rest of the Finns. Additionally the border of the Swedish and Finnish languages is too far to the west. I remember reading it was at the river Kalix, though I can't find any sources for language borders right now.

View attachment 1165351
Suomalaiset = Finns
Hämäläiset = Tavastians
Pohjalaiset = Ostrobothnians
Savolaiset = Savonians
Karjalaiset = Karelians
Saamelaisia = Sámi
I posted this map already with the same translation btw
 
Why is the location Brekne to the right of Ronneby? In reality Ronneby lies 14 km east of Bräkne-Hoby. That would be the equivalent of switching the locations of Kalmar and Öland.
 
in my opinion Fanø should be added. Because of it's maritime importance in the 18th and 19th centuries. Which lead to Fanø having the second largest fleet just behind Copenhagen. It's maritime success began after the island bought itself free from the crown in 1741.
Sources:
the wiki page for Fanø.
the website Fanøhus, read sejlskibsepoke.
the website mitfanø.dk, read Fanøflådens udvikling 1796 – 1815.
I cant post links beacause i have not posted enough to use links


denmark.png
 
Last edited:
Apologies if I'm wrong on this - but shouldn't the Vepsians and Ingrians share the Suomenskuo religion, instead of being generic animists? They are Baltic Finnish groups after all, pretty closely related to Finns and Karelians.
 
Last edited:
  • 6Like
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:
The Kven culture should just be removed and replaced by Ostrobothnian. The name Kven is pretty mysterious and it was never/almost never used after the Viking age. The traditional Finnish tribe identities don't include Kven and historically the areas inhabited by Kven in the PC map were inhabited by Ostrobothnians. Nowadays the only people that are called Kven are Finnish descended people living in Finnmark. Having Kvens exist as a culture at game start is borderline pseudohistory as far as I know.

The devs also equate Kven to Meänkieli for some reason. Meänkieli did not begin to form until 1809, when Finland became part of Russia and the Finnish speakers west of the Tornio river were separated from the rest of the Finns. Additionally the border of the Swedish and Finnish languages is too far to the west. I remember reading it was at the river Kalix, though I can't find any sources for language borders right now.

View attachment 1165351
Suomalaiset = Finns
Hämäläiset = Tavastians
Pohjalaiset = Ostrobothnians
Savolaiset = Savonians
Karjalaiset = Karelians
Saamelaisia = Sámi
I agree that the Kven culture is problematic, but it definitely should not be replaced by Ostrobothnian as today's regions of Pohjois-Pohjanmaa and Kainuu were not settled by what could be considered "Finnish" people yet in 1337.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I get that Stockholm Skärgård is difficult to get the right but I would really like for you to take a 2nd look at it, it looks really awful.

Also the borders of locations in Svealand are very strange.
The location of Nyköping does not include Nyköping it is further south and is placed in Kolmården, same for Södertälje which is in Nyköping.

I hope this is noticed and it is fixed

Also, no marshes in Finland? Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like there should be.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
There is literally no way almost all of the western coast of finland would be a swedish majority. At that time the only swedes in finland were the upperclassmen which obviously dont make the majority of the population. Also there is a swedish majority in some locations that sweden doesnt even own? What a joke.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Lots of things wrong in Finland:

1. ⁠No marshes, most of inland should be marshes. Finland has tons of Marshes.
2. ⁠Wht are locations localised while the Provinces are in Swedish, English and Finnish? Either both should be localised or neither.
3. ⁠Inre Österbotten isn’t a thing, that should be renamed to Kainuu or Southern Lappland. Also Egentligen Finland should be just Finland as that region was the region of Finland in the Swedish realm.
4. ⁠Finnish culture being around the regions where Tavastians live and thd Tavastian culture being split is weird. They should be merged to either Finnish or Tavastian.
5. ⁠Swedish should only be the Majority in Egentligen Finland, everywhere else it should be a ruling minority. The Ostrobothnian swedes hadn’t settled there by this point.
6. ⁠Inpassable Forests in Karelia and Kola are dumb, those clearly exist to make modern day borders easier to achieve. Those should be removed as those were just very rural areas.
1. No complaints.

2. Because the game will have dynamic place names, meaning they will be named according to who owns them. What they're called under the hood is not entirely relevant.

3. Innre Österbotten in the sense that it's the inland part of Österbotten, which I'm guessing would be too large of a province. Also, I can see why they use the modern name of Egentliga Finland as to not cause confusion. It's also just a general rule that most locations tend to use modern spellings.

4. I don't disagree on this. Either make the Finnish culture smaller and restricted to its historical area, or just merge the two.

5. Swedes had definitely settled and built settlements on the coast at his time, but I can't find any sources stating to what amounts and the demographics, so I would question you here as to what evidence you have against the coast having a Swedish majority.

6. Impassable forests are meant to represent the fact that the area was virtually uninhabited, and most importantly for gameplay was not, and could not be used for military maneuvering. If you put your army in Finland's south, you should be able to effectively defend it from attacks. Armies marching through the forests, without any supplies or infrastructure. It's the same reason why parts of Siberia are wasteland. Ask yourself this, Is it a wasteland to let players achieve modern day borders, or are the modern day borders the way they are because that part of the world was quite inhospitable?
 
  • 6Like
  • 5
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
1. No complaints.

2. Because the game will have dynamic place names, meaning they will be named according to who owns them. What they're called under the hood is not entirely relevant.

3. Innre Österbotten in the sense that it's the inland part of Österbotten, which I'm guessing would be too large of a province. Also, I can see why they use the modern name of Egentliga Finland as to not cause confusion. It's also just a general rule that most locations tend to use modern spellings.

4. I don't disagree on this. Either make the Finnish culture smaller and restricted to its historical area, or just merge the two.

5. Swedes had definitely settled and built settlements on the coast at his time, but I can't find any sources stating to what amounts and the demographics, so I would question you here as to what evidence you have against the coast having a Swedish majority.

6. Impassable forests are meant to represent the fact that the area was virtually uninhabited, and most importantly for gameplay was not, and could not be used for military maneuvering. If you put your army in Finland's south, you should be able to effectively defend it from attacks. Armies marching through the forests, without any supplies or infrastructure. It's the same reason why parts of Siberia are wasteland. Ask yourself this, Is it a wasteland to let players achieve modern day borders, or are the modern day borders the way they are because that part of the world was quite inhospitable?
The area was consistently used as a means of attacking locations past it
1721398384875.png

1721398397567.png

 
  • 10
  • 5Like
  • 3
Reactions: