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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
SCA_countries.png

Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

sca_northlocations.png

sca_eastlocations.png

sca_westlocations.png

sca_centralocations.png


sca_southlocations.png

While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
sca_provinces.png

We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
sca_topography.png

It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
sca_vegetation.png

There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
sca_climate.png

Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
sca_culture.png

Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
sca_religion.png


The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
sca_rawmaterials.png

It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
sca_market.png

Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
sca_pop.png



Not many people live up in the north..
sca_eastpops.png


sca_west_pops.png

sca_south_pops.png

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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1. No complaints.

2. Because the game will have dynamic place names, meaning they will be named according to who owns them. What they're called under the hood is not entirely relevant.

3. Innre Österbotten in the sense that it's the inland part of Österbotten, which I'm guessing would be too large of a province. Also, I can see why they use the modern name of Egentliga Finland as to not cause confusion. It's also just a general rule that most locations tend to use modern spellings.

4. I don't disagree on this. Either make the Finnish culture smaller and restricted to its historical area, or just merge the two.

5. Swedes had definitely settled and built settlements on the coast at his time, but I can't find any sources stating to what amounts and the demographics, so I would question you here as to what evidence you have against the coast having a Swedish majority.

6. Impassable forests are meant to represent the fact that the area was virtually uninhabited, and most importantly for gameplay was not, and could not be used for military maneuvering. If you put your army in Finland's south, you should be able to effectively defend it from attacks. Armies marching through the forests, without any supplies or infrastructure. It's the same reason why parts of Siberia are wasteland. Ask yourself this, Is it a wasteland to let players achieve modern day borders, or are the modern day borders the way they are because that part of the world was quite inhospitable?
obviously a swede wouldnt have a problem with swedish propaganda.
 
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Kvenland shall rise again! (Will it be possible to play as them somehow, would be fun to try a King Faravid/Kaukomieli run)

I love the various divided Finnic tribes/cultures, would be nice to see the same with Swedish, i.e. Elfdalian/Dalakarlar (Dalecarlian?)

Would also be interesting to see Geatish culture (in case there are no plans on Crimea being Gothic, hopefully we'll see the map of that soon)
 
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Another thing real quick, Sami should be WAY more widespread in Finland. And like another post said, the culture should be split. Here is a ”culture map” from 1200s, with those big white areas with ”saamelaiset” all being sparsely populated by Sami. Finns took a while to spread inland. I can dig up more detailed information later.

(The colors are finnish tribes
green=finns
grey=tavastians
brown=ostrobothnians [that you call Kven]
yellow=savonians
brownish yellow=karelians
blue line on the coast shows division between finnish and swedish languages)

View attachment 1165248
Sami should definitely not be as widespread as shown in this picture. Their lands extended roughly to the modern province of Pohjois-Pohjanmaa (maybe Northern Kainuu) in mid-1300s.
 
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Norway is such a fun country to try out. Three different concentrations of population.. Viken, Tröndelag and the West Coast.. and connecting them by land is not really easily feasible.. Winters are long and harsh, and the raw materials of fish, lumber and wild game , while useful, are not as valuable as spices or gold.. There is a Silver Mine in Kongsberg (theoretically it should not be open yet, but..), but population levels are so low, that its hard to really exploit it..

Are you able to move people from one location/province to another? The establishment of the French colony, Saint-Domingue (modern day Haiti) was possible due to the Spanish colonists evacuating the western part of the Hispaniola island since there were too many pirate raids and they needed to consolidate. Eventually the French Buccaneers on Tortola moved in and used the western part of the island as a meat trading station. It was eventually recognized as a colony by the French crown and it became a key place for the growth and sale of sugar until the Haitian slave revolt in 1791.
 
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Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

View attachment 1165160
View attachment 1165161
View attachment 1165162
View attachment 1165163

View attachment 1165164
While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
View attachment 1165169
We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
View attachment 1165173
It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
View attachment 1165174
There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
View attachment 1165176
Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
View attachment 1165177
Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
View attachment 1165181
Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
View attachment 1165182


Not many people live up in the north..

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
Hey, Im from Bohuslän and very into its history and I have some adjustments I would recommend.
1. First Uddevalla is in the wrong place as the city is located within Kongahälla location in the game so if you want to keep uddevalla you would need to add a location by splitting Kongahälla in two
Uddevalla kongahälla.PNG


2. The current province of Uddevalla would be better off being named Hornbore/Hornborg(swedified) as that was the seat of the old Ting of the kingdom of Ranrike.
3. More generally the shape of Bohuslän here looks weird, as in its general shape.

e57ijked57ijke57i.png

Off the top of my head I cant think of much more, but i could look up some old norwegian/swedish names for the locations as I have the books on if so it fits the era better. Keep working on this fantastic game!
 
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About large impassable terrain within Karelia - these should be normal locations like others around -but maybe with some mechanics that allow you to colonize them after reaching some technological development or something similar later in the game. This way, the natural border between Sweden and Novgorod would be preserved.
 
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The culture map of Scandinavia looks interesting.
 
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Карта климата на 1337 год (время после средневекового климатического оптимума), 1685 год (время пика Малого ледникового периода), 1901 год (самые ранние модулированные данные).
climate_izm.png


The results of H.H. Lamb's research. with my signatures for clarity of data with dates.

Izmtemp.png

The map is based on a mathematical study of temperature fluctuations in central England over the last millennium by H.H. Lamb. And modern climate maps of various years according to the climate classification of Wladimir Köppen and Rudolf Geiger. I drew the areas by eye so that they were similar in displacement by ~ 0.5 degrees (according to the annual temperature). If I'm wrong, then join the climate discussion.

Websites of online journals with research results:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Middle-Ages
https://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/shifts.htm
 
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- Could we see a more precise population breakdown of the Finnish provinces? I feel like the Swedish population might be overrepresented here. The earliest estimate I could find quickly was from 1610, when 17.5% of the population of Finland was Swedish-speaking, according to Wikipedia. And Swedish settlement in Finland was still in progress when the game starts.

The data we have show extremely low numbers in Finland
 
Wouldn't it be better to just call the Bornholm location Bornholm?

We consistently try to name locations after town or villages if possible.
 
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I agree with some of the other people here that there are some problems with the locations in Denmark. First of all the islands of Lolland and Falster are shown as one, what makes this even stranger is that the much smaller island of Møn is shown as a separate island. Maybe split Nakskov into three locations? One for Lolland, one for Falster, and one for Møn? Or if that is too many then rope Falster and Møn together and just have the larger two as separate locations.

Secondly, it looks like the Roskilde Location doesn't include Roskilde, it is a little hard to tell on the map. I know that Copenhagen didn't have the prominence that it will have at some point yet but perhaps giving Copenhagen its own location would be appropriate and carve some of the Kalundborg location off to give it to the Roskilde location. Similar to this, perhaps the southern bit of Fyn could be split from the Odense location, called Svendborg, and given the southern bit of Fyn along with the islands of Ærø and Langeland.

Also you don't seem to have included Sjællands Odde, you know the northwestern peninsula of Sjælland, the peninsula looks like it has been cut off. In the same vein the island of Amager is not depicted on the map as distinct from the rest of Sjælland, with the since of other islands you have included as separate maybe Amager should have that honor too?

As others have said while the Kalø location could perhaps be renamed. It was indeed a fortress in the area, it wasn't the main population center, it would probably be more appropriate to have the town of Ebeltoft be the place name. After all, Ebeltof was established as a merchant town at this point. (https://danmarkshistorien.dk/vis/materiale/ebeltoft) (https://nationalparkmolsbjerge.dk/oplev-nationalparken/kaloe/test-kaloe-slotsruin)

Also, I am not sure if it is right that Nankskov, Kalundborg, Odense, and Assens are not considered farmland since the primary soil type in these areas are clay heavy JB7 soils, as in soil that is excellent for agriculture. In the same vein, I am not sure if Sand is an appropriate choice of trade good for Nakskov since the area is so agriculturally productive. (https://agro.au.dk/aktuelt/nyheder/vis/artikel/forskere-fra-au-staar-bag-opdateret-jordbundstypekort)
 
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I wanted to say that I am very happy to finally see Scandinavia, but, as I live here I do have some things to say.

I think the location of Helsingborg should be split up into Helsingborg and Landskrona/Landzcrone/Södra Säby. There are many reasons why I believe that representing Landskrona is a good reason, it was an important military and strategic location with a deep port and one of the most important forts in Scandinavia. This is the most compelling reason I think, but on the topic of military gameplay there is quite a diffrence between capturing Landskrona and Helsingborg. Capturing Helsingborg means contesting Öresund while Landskrona does not to that extent. You shouldn't be able to cross across land from Malmö directly into Helsingborg, skipping over Landskrona, the defenses there should block crossing up into Helsingborg directly along the west coast.

The Landskrona port is mentioned in the records of Saxo Grammaticus in the 12th century which was then called Sønder Sæby (Södra Säby) but became Landskrone shortly after the the turn of the 15th century gaining full city rights. In the 1650's after being ceeded to Sweden it was built out because of it's strategic military placement and deep harbour to become considered the most modern fort in all Scandinavia. Landskrona developed in a seperate manner from Helsingborg although it might not be more than a group fishing village at the start date it quickly develops into a town with city rights.

Edit: Regarding location density I think that Scania could do with more locations, as it's where much of the operational part of combat will take place in Scandinavia. Also being one of the most dense places population wise. If Halland gets four locations then Scania should get a bit more than the current 6 locations as it is more than double in size (and in value :p).

It was and continues to have very productive countryside with fertile soil, I would argue for either a crop like wheat or for fish as the RGO. And for the farmland vegetation.
1721396887764.png

Map of Skåne with aproximate location borders (red) and with Helsingborg, Landskrona and Malmö marked with circles. I've also just arbitrarily drawn borders in dotted lines just to give an idea of what it might look like, though it could also include parts of the Lund location to the east with towns like Kävlinge etc...

Unrelated but I find it odd that Bohuslän and the Gothenburg area is flatlands with no hills at all, i'm not a geogrophy major but that's not right. Source: strong gut feeling after having been there a lot.
 
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Let's say, Sweden can convert 20 people per year, they would be able to convert the vast majority of these locations in less than 50 years

thats the lowest populated location in 5 years..
 
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