Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Aethilias]

its like 100 or 150 in each location.

Even at about 150 in each location that would be wrong for the region by more than a factor of 10. Can you please post it? I don't think Northern Norway should end up being literally the only region of the entirety of Europe this map isn't posted for

 

[Engram]

The real issue is that afaik the region was probably not majority Finnish at this time, but inhabited by Sámi peoples,. I'm not sure though, someone will have to back me up/correct me here.
Based on differences in dialects, we can tell Ostrobothnians descend from Karelian settlers, while southern Ostrobothnians descend from Finno-Tavastian settlers. So it might not be worth it to represent them as a culture. Similar case with the Savonians which iirc are just Karelo-Tavastian settlers and them being considered a distinct heimo is a more recent thing.

1) Both populations were present, but the Kvens were in the dominant position around the coast.

2) Many a history book will make a distinction for Savonians at this point of history, or even earlier.

Hmm, I might have misinterpreted what I read then. The Kalix border is mentioned in Kyösti Julku's Suomen itärajan synty (1987). The final pages have a summary of the conquest of the head of the Gulf of Bothnia in English:
View attachment 1165432
"In practice, however, this Swedish settlement came to an end at Kalix, at which point it came face to face with evidently already ancient Finnish settlement at the head of the Gulf of Bothnia."

I knew the Birkalrs lived in Västerbotten, but I assumed the majority in the area wasn't Finnish. Not sure what face to face means here if the areas west of Kalix were majority Finnish.

My reading of this is that the colonisation efforts did not reach further ultimately, thus the wording "came to an end". To me this is referencing the endpoint of colonisation hundreds of years later, not the situation around the time of the Treaty of Nöteborg.

 

[Pollllo]

They are danes.

And yet you made "Transylvanians" their own thing, acknowledging them as "Romanian". Now if that were based on the fact that Transylvanians are under foreign rule and will continue being so historically, then just take a look at Scane being Swedish in 1337 just the same, also having long prior developing their own dialect, and returning to Sweden in the game's intended timeframe. One stays one won't go? "Silesian" on the other hand wasn't even a dialect at the time, the only thing you can base the split on is them under vassalage of the Bohemian Crown. There's a polarization between cultures. Just have a splitting cultures and merging them option under the right events and time passing, being able to maintain historical and gameplay wise granularity.

 

[Failtier]

Its a Dynamic Historical Event for Denmark.

This means Roskilde will be changed to Copenhagen, or Roskilde will be split in two? I am a bit confused about that decision. Copenhagen emerged as Denmark's capital (for that alone it should be its own location), and Roskilde has been (and still is) too significant for not being represented in the game.

 

[matfer13]

I don't know the history of the region, so there might be good reason for this, but why are there signficant parts of the northern swedish and finnish coastlines (around the gulf of bothnia), with majority swedish population, which are not owned by Sweden? Particularly on the finnish side of the gulf, there is a significant stretch of coastline which is majority swedish population, but I thought the main reason swedes lived anywhere in Finland would be because Sweden owned land there

The thing is that all of that coastline is part of de jure kingdom of Sweden, it's just that they don't controll it directly yet, the fact that there are settlers is good because it means that they are gonna claim it and give it to Sweden(kinda like settlers of the frontier in the wild west)

 

[grandadmiralbob]

I learn a lot from these threads. The detail from these maps makes it harder for me to play EU4.

 

[matfer13]

thats the lowest populated location in 5 years..

Yeah that's my point @Johan

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Some feedback on Saaristomeri (Archipelago Sea):

This is supposed to be the biggest archipelago in Europe. Doesn't look very impressive. Of course, most of the islands here are small, but you already have some islands that are only a few pixels in size in the map file, so why not add some more? Not every island, but enough so it appears like a proper archipelago. For reference, here's how the archipelago actually looks like.

 

[Thorum]

Yeah that's my point @Johan

I'm interpreting his reply to include a silent "you can do only one at a time". With at least 50, probably more like 100 locations, most of which at least somewhat more populated

 

[Ipponen]

The thing is that all of that coastline is part of de jure kingdom of Sweden, it's just that they don't controll it directly yet, the fact that there are settlers is good because it means that they are gonna claim it and give it to Sweden(kinda like settlers of the frontier in the wild west)

Is this true? I tried to do some research on Sweden's de facto control in this thread. Already in the 13th century Ostrobothnia was divided into the church parishes of Korsholm (Mustasaari) and Pedersöre (Pietarsaari), but of course it could be that church rule came before earthly rule. On the other hand in already 1329 Sweden was trying to exercise authority in areas north of the de jure border in the form of tithe payment. In the same year the Savonians also received a royal letter on how to pay their tithes, so it sounds like Swedish control should also extend there, but my rationale could be wrong of course. It would be great if someone else knew more about this.

 

[Slime99]

There seems to be an idea that Finns had brought agriculture to Tornionlaakso by the Iron Age, but I have yet to find concrete archaeological evidence for this

Kuusela 2014: Pohjois-Suomen rautakauden kuvasta

Kuusela 2014: Pohjois-Suomen rautakauden kuvasta

www.academia.edu

 

[PresleyYellow]

Johan heard Scandinavia was next for Tinto Maps and got so excited that he volunteered to handle the post himself.

 

[Fjellfyr]

I'm going to focus on the regions of SOGN and FIRDA in this post, but first I'll mention the sources I've used. Sorry for them all being primarily in norwegian.

Maps from the book "Norsk Historisk Leksikon - Kultur og Samfunn ca. 1500-1800". Don't know if its in english, but the maps for administrative regions of norway is online with authors blessing here (I hope they are accessible outside of norway):

https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Leksikon:Skipreide - This is for coastal norway.
https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Leksikon:Tinglag - Northern norway. Particularily interesting is the regions which are labeled as "non-taxed land" for determining populations
https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Leksikon:Prestegjeld - Inner norway eastern norway

I also used the book "Historisk-geographisk beskrivelse over kongeriget Norge (Noregsveldi) i middelalderen". Its from 1850s and has horrid font plus its in norwegian, but its very useful in describing not only administrative regions but also important land routes. https://archive.org/details/historiskgeogra00muncgoog/page/n138/mode/2up

Of the maps from the first book, I'd like to highlight this specific map, of skipreide ca 1300.

Anyways, lets get to the maps.

1) More accurate waters

If nothing else, it would be nice to improve the waterways of the region. I am so happy that Sognefjorden is a sea region! Tempting to ask for Nordfjorden as well.
- More arms of Sognefjorden, in particular Aurlandsfjorden is visibly absent. And here shows that Aurland doesn't contain Aurland.
- Dalsfjorden and Førdefjorden in Sunnfjord are almost entirely absent.
- Nordfjorden is about half of its actual length, and it shows that perhaps the wastelands here were a bit too big.
- Would be nice for Hornindalsvatnet (the biggest lake in western norway and the deepest in Europe) and Jølstravatnet could be represented. Other lakeswould be nice too, but they're likely too small.

2) More accurate provinces

In 1337, Bergenshus was not an administrative region. It should be split into Hordaland, Sogn, and Firda, if not further subdivided with more provinces. They *were* combined into Bergenshus amt later in the game's timeline, and then split into Bergenshus and Nordre Bergenshus with Sogn+Firda during the time the game runs.

Romsdalen should be Møre og Romsdal, as the people of Møre would get a heartattack hearing they are called Romsdølinger. Unless more locations are added for more subdivisions.

3) Locations in the region

First, I'd just post a cleaned up map of skipreide to see the basis I used for this.

Now, firstly there are some provinces here that are way too small to be included.
Secondly, these are 1660 borders, and thus I used the other source to try to be more accurate to 1337.

Here is my proposal for map of the region, using Bergen/Fana to judge what is an "acceptable size" of provinces here. Please take my wastelands here with a grain of salt, I was spitballing a bit based on height maps and place names.

Ytre Sogn:
- Utvær (Alternatively called Solund or Hardbakke)
- Lavik
- Klævold (Lots of spelling methods out there. This is the local approved.)
- Kvamsøy
- Tjugum
- Vik
- Syrstrond (Alternatively called Systrond or Leikanger).

On a side note, having outer parts here be part of sunnfjord needs to be changed even if no provinces are added/changed.

If too small and need combination:
- Utvær+Lavik = Lavik
- Kvamsøy+Tjugum = Balestrand. A bit ahistorical as its out of the timeframe. Southern Kvamsøy would then go to Vik.

Indre Sogn:
- Luster (having eaten Jostedalen and Marifjæren already).
- Sogndal (devoured Norum)
- Årdal
- Lærdal
- Aurland, in its proper spot. 1337 had nærøy and utland combined IRL.
- Solvorn

If too small:
- Solvorn and its valley gets eaten by Sogndal.

Sunnfjord:
- Askvoll
- Dale (If it shares name with another province, it was later renamed Holmedal, then split into the older names of Fjaler and Gaular for outer and inner part).
- Førde
- Jølster, reclaimed from the wasteland. Had a really interesting political figure from here in Audun Hugleiksson just 40 years prior to start, even built a private stone castle.
- Brandsøy.

Nordfjord:
- Stad
- Davik
- Gloppen (more common usage than Gjemmestad)
- Eid
- Stryn
- Olden

If too small:
- Stryn eats Olden.

4) Mountain crossings, similar to desert crossing. Should not be able to be settled. Used the 1850s book talking about important landroutes.

I labeled them 1, 2, 3, and will talk about them in order

- 1 is FILEFJELL, and should definitely be added as a crossing. It was the main route east-west, considered safest, and one of the fastest. This route is in part why the inner eastern valleys belonged to Gulating for a time. We know from King Sverre's saga that it was crossed with an army during the civil war period, so it should be usable for military purposes. This was also the postroute east-west, led to Lærdal having one of the four west coast markets. The people of Lærdal and Borgund was also excempt from military service for large parts of the game period, in return for clearing road so people could travel.

- 2 is SOGNEFJELL. Mentioned in letter from early 1400 that people of the inner valleys had duty to clear road for passage. Has a long chain of cairns showing the route across the mountain to Bøverdalen, quite a few dating from this period.

- 3 is STRYNEFJELL. Again, attested to have been a military crossing in King Sverre's saga, as an army is said to cross over from inner valleys and reaching Olden.

There are more crossings, like from Aurland to east, Vik to Voss, and from Luster to Olden, but based on descriptions I'm unsure armies could cross them.

This led me to the question:

Where are the inner valleys here? Skjåk, for example, can hardly be called a wasteland.

 

[Fjellfyr]

Realised I forgot to talk about anything but locations, so I'll do a small addendum
Whichever province ends up holding the area around Hyllestad, which in my proposal would be Lavik (or Askvoll), should have STONE as its resource.

This is because the hyllestad quarries were one of the most important quarries in the country, making millstones found not only all over the country but in other parts of northern europe, like germany and the baltics. It was a thousand year industry which employed 1k+ people at times.

Hyllestad quernstone quarries - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Secondly, and this may be surprising if you don't know the climate, but parts of sogn should produce FRUIT. They were in the middle ages one of the biggest fruit producing regions in the entire nordics, only beaten by Hardanger. We have letters from 1300 talking about fruit gardens in Sogndal, and in King Sverre's saga even earlier they speak of a man killed in a "fruit garden" in Vik.

From Norsk Frukthistorie (Norwegian fruit history):

Fruktdyrking = fruit cultivation. Eplegard = Apple yard.

If my map is used, I'd recommend VIK and SOGNDAL to get FRUITS as a resource.

For the remaining provinces, a mix of FISH, LIVESTOCK, LUMBER would probably be the safest bet and I doubt anybody would complain. West Coast had hard areas to farm, but you could find a decent amount of grazeland, in particular further up the mountains. A lot of the regions map will have places be named -støl which essentially just means "high up grazeland."

EDIT:

Added some more sourcing

I'll just summarize the most outstanding issues of the region from previous post:
- Too little waterways, nordfjorden is too small, sognefjorden doesn't have most of its branches, sunnfjord's fjords aren't on the map
- Wastelands in areas that very much were settled, like Jølster, Stryn, Olden, Fjærland, Borgund, and even Aurland even though its a location
- Ytre Sogn is in sunnfjord on the map here, which irks me. Even being conservative here, there is more than enough space from the big surrounding provinces to make something more accurate here. At least make one called Lavik or Klævold that contains ytre sogn that is currently in Sunnfjord and Nordhordland.
- Aurland is not in Aurland. If not changed, it should be renamed to Vik.
- Sogndal should at minimum be split into Sogndal and Lærdal, though i'd love more.
- Lack of inner valleys of eastern norway, and the route across filefjell.

 

[mermaidtyrone]

View attachment 1165301I hope this lil guy get its own name like Suome , Sami religions one day :d

That should just be Suomenusko, unless it's representing Slavic Paganism (probably not), if Suomenusko in this game is just meant as a representation of Finnic Paganism in general and not some specific strain.

 

[Axel2007]

political map​

First of all, the political map I see you have created as of 1337 is, in my guess, a way to balance the region, even though I would have liked to see a version of a beaten Denmark getting back on its feet, probably with the help of the Lübeck treaty of May 19, 1340, and the murder of Count Gerhard III — who, as many of you probably know, controlled the vast majority of Denmark. I know that this would mean Denmark only appearing on June 24, 1340, three years after the start date, and even as a vassal of Gerhard III up until Gerhard's death. Furthermore, we have Count John III, who holds Sjælland. I say this because you have portrayed Sweden holding Scania but not the other holders, which would make it — in my opinion — a more challenging and fun campaign. But in this campaign, Duke Valdemar controls Slesvig from the Eider to the Kongeå, right? He is the one who assembles the fragmented Denmark after he exchanges these lands in the treaty of February 11, 1340, which is when Denmark de facto exists again.

Just think about it one more time.

I can't seem to get my eyes off the Wadden Sea already existing when the Saint Marcellus's flood of 1362 hasn't even hit yet, along with the later Burchardi flood, which put the final nail in the coffin. When talking about the Saint Marcellus's flood of 1362, we have one of Denmark's then-major cities, Rungholt, completely disappearing.

Vegetation​

As for the vegetation, I would say Lolland-Falster and the eastern part of Fyn would be more suitable areas for farmlands, more so than the most western provinces depicted in Jylland.

Culture​

As for Denmark's culture, if we count it as more monolithic opposed to regionalized cultures in the same group, then I would like to see the culture go all the way down to the Eider. The Frisians would control or at least be present in large numbers on a little more of the Danish west coast.

Locations​

Instead of Kalø, which was only a castle, it would be more appropriate to say Ebeltoft or just Djurs.

The Ringkøbing location isn't even on its own location and should instead be located in the Bølling location. The location named Ringkøbing should be renamed Lemvig.

Instead of the four other locations of western Jutland apart from Kalø, you should just tone it down to three: Aarhus, Horsens, and Vejle/Kolding, as these were of much greater importance than Grindsted. Silkeborg could just be defined by a castle instead, as it was its primary purpose.

Split Kalundborg into two locations, the other location could be either Slagelse or Sorø. Split Ringsted into two, the other part being Vordingborg, which gained enormous importance for Valdemar Atterdag.

And split Nakskov into two, with the other location becoming Nykøbing Falster. Split Roskilde into two so we can make a market in Copenhagen when the time is right.

Malmø could potentially also be split into two if you take a bit of land from Lund and make Trelleborg, which was very important. If you want, you can also call it Skanør-Falsterbro, but it wasn't as important other than the Scania market.

Osby being so important isn't historically accurate, and the location should probably just be called the same as the area and not the city. Brekne could be called Lykå. And Hammerhus should just be called Ronne or maybe even Bornholm, as it is a single location.

And if you decide to follow the historical geography before the floods, Rungholt should also be represented. That would be my most realistic bid with the size of the provinces that we got to follow.

Materials​

So, I will go after your depiction of the map when talking materials. In Scania, many of the churches were made from sandstone opposed to the rest of Denmark making it from brick — Ribe imported from the Rhine. This was because of local sandstone deposits; most notably Hoor sandstone was used, so the location Hoor is in should probably have stone.

Randers was a big horse market, so either Randers should have horses or any of the provinces nearby it. Near the Danish west coast, there should also be another amber location, even though the trade wasn't as big as it had been in the Nordic Bronze Age.

Nakskov should be wheat; there was even a law that restricted the export of wheat aimed at these locations because locals exported their wheat outside the cities and directly to the Hansa.

Denmark should also have at least one location with lumber and one with wool in it historically.

 

[ibvfteh]

no we wont increase it.

Do you plan to decrease it? A lot of locations have 100 people. Looks like nothing can be ever done there. (Not enough people for a single building)

 

[Mrkew]

View attachment 1165159

Will the double sweden, double denmark be a thing in the game or will it be like EU4 where name placement goes over seazones?

 

[Jarzki]

Not really.

View attachment 1165413

The dates on the map indicate the most recent precense of Sámi people. This of course is not to say that Finnish tribes didn't exist all the way up to Kuusamo and Muonio. The vast Finnish interior was used by all tribes inhabiting the region.

Source: Blomstedt, Y., Laaksonen, E., Pärssinen, E., Suvanto, S., Kiuasmaa, K., & Korhonen, T. (1985). Suomen historia: 2, Keskiaika, valtaistuinriitojen ja uskonpuhdistuksen aika, kansankulttuurin juuret. Weilin + Göös.

My comment was poorly worded, by "Sami lands" I meant majority Sami territories. It's true that there was Sami presence in the areas I mentioned up until 1600s as is shown in your picture.

 

[Flamie]

Hi!

I noticed you've chosen the name Kyrkslätt for a location in southern Finland. As someone familiar with the history of this area I'd suggest you change it to Sjundeå (Sijwende, Siennde, Siioende, Siundo, Siunde, Siwndo and Siunda are all names historically used for this place, but I'd stick with Sjundeå to make it conform to the rest of the names on the map) which was a way more influential and significant town during the game's time frame, despite being a slightly younger settlement than Kyrsklätt. [1] [2] [4]

Sjundeå was the seat of many members of high nobility and other very influential members of Sweden-Finland (for anyone not familiar this is the name modern academics tend to call the Swedish Empire) including Clas Fleming, Åke Tott and Jakob Hästesko. Several of these people were influential not only in Finland, but were some of the most rich and powerful people in Sweden-Finland as a whole. Several of Finland’s Governor-Generals had their main estates in Sjundeå. [3] [4]

On historical maps you can also see Sjundeå (spelled Siundo) present while Kyrkslätt is absent. The maps I've provided are from 1635 and 1699 respectively. Finding reliable maps from earlier than this is very challenging, several of the ones I found contained lots of place names that are entirely fictional for example.

View attachment 1721411983155.png
View attachment 1721411837986.png

Sjundeå also housed two of the largest castles/estates in Finland at the time of their construction (Sjundby and Svidja). While they were built slightly later than the start point of the game, they still fit well within the game's time frame and are more than relevant. [4]

Sjundeå was a production centre of woodworking and carpentry, and wooden products, especially farm equipment such as scythes, carts and spinning wheels, from Sjundeå were known for their quality, so if you could represent this in the game somehow that would be awesome. [4]

I wanna commend you for modelling the cultures of southern Finland so well. I was slightly worried you'd make the entire southern coast Finnish majority which isn't correct for the time, but I was positively surprised. I do want to add that there were most likely Sámi people living in southern Finland in 1337, as Swedish names of certain places (ex: Lappträsk, Lappers, Noux) elude to reindeer-herding Sámi people as far south as Sjundeå. [4] There exist practically no documented records of this though, so I can't blame you for not including them. In an ideal world you'd manage to include their populations though as they were certainly not yet restricted to their current territories.

Sources

[1] Finlandssvenska Bebyggelsenamn (register of Finland-Swedish place names) [in Swedish]
[2] Diplomentarium Fennicum (register of medieval documents) [in English]
[3] Uppslagsverket Finland (Finnish Encyclopedia) [in Swedish]
[4] A. Koskivirta, Sjundeå - en nyckelkommun genom tiderna, 2010 (physical book) [in Swedish]

The maps (both available in English)

A. Bure, Svecia, Dania, et Norvegia, regna Europae Septentrionalia, 1635
J. B. Homann, Suecia, Norvegia, Russia Moscovitica 1699, 1703