Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Flamie]

Hi!

I noticed you've chosen the name Kyrkslätt for a location in southern Finland. As someone familiar with the history of this area I'd suggest you change it to Sjundeå (Sijwende, Siennde, Siioende, Siundo, Siunde, Siwndo and Siunda are all names historically used for this place, but I'd stick with Sjundeå to make it conform to the rest of the names on the map) which was a way more influential and significant town during the game's time frame, despite being a slightly younger settlement than Kyrsklätt. [1] [2] [4]

Sjundeå was the seat of many members of high nobility and other very influential members of Sweden-Finland (for anyone not familiar this is the name modern academics tend to call the Swedish Empire) including Clas Fleming, Åke Tott and Jakob Hästesko. Several of these people were influential not only in Finland, but were some of the most rich and powerful people in Sweden-Finland as a whole. Several of Finland’s Governor-Generals had their main estates in Sjundeå. [3] [4]

On historical maps you can also see Sjundeå (spelled Siundo) present while Kyrkslätt is absent. The maps I've provided are from 1635 and 1699 respectively. Finding reliable maps from earlier than this is very challenging, several of the ones I found contained lots of place names that are entirely fictional for example.

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Sjundeå also housed two of the largest castles/estates in Finland at the time of their construction (Sjundby and Svidja). While they were built slightly later than the start point of the game, they still fit well within the game's time frame and are more than relevant. [4]

Sjundeå was a production centre of woodworking and carpentry, and wooden products, especially farm equipment such as scythes, carts and spinning wheels, from Sjundeå were known for their quality, so if you could represent this in the game somehow that would be awesome. [4]

I wanna commend you for modelling the cultures of southern Finland so well. I was slightly worried you'd make the entire southern coast Finnish majority which isn't correct for the time, but I was positively surprised. I do want to add that there were most likely Sámi people living in southern Finland in 1337, as Swedish names of certain places (ex: Lappträsk, Lappers, Noux) elude to reindeer-herding Sámi people as far south as Sjundeå. [4] There exist practically no documented records of this though, so I can't blame you for not including them. In an ideal world you'd manage to include their populations though as they were certainly not yet restricted to their current territories.

Sources

[1] Finlandssvenska Bebyggelsenamn (register of Finland-Swedish place names) [in Swedish]
[2] Diplomentarium Fennicum (register of medieval documents) [in English]
[3] Uppslagsverket Finland (Finnish Encyclopedia) [in Swedish]
[4] A. Koskivirta, Sjundeå - en nyckelkommun genom tiderna, 2010 (physical book) [in Swedish]

The maps (both available in English)

A. Bure, Svecia, Dania, et Norvegia, regna Europae Septentrionalia, 1635
J. B. Homann, Suecia, Norvegia, Russia Moscovitica 1699, 1703

 

[Foke]

Considering that the production is exactly trade goods and not the main local production, I'd say that Livestock is spot on for central Jutland given that the main trade from there was the cattle drives down Hærvejen (which I hope will be represented) to Holsten and Hamburg. But yes some of the Wheat should probably be Sturdy Grains

Good points. Looks like Hærvejen is represented looking at this:

 

[Johan]

Is tar grouped with lumber? It was one of Finland's major exports during this the early modern era.

Tar is a produced good

 

[Johan]

I agree with the sentiment. Eastern Finland is rather hilly and rugged, but is represented as ”flatlands” since the hills don’t surpass 500 meter in height.

500 meters up and down is basically flatlands.

 

[Johan]

can we get population numbers in Finnmark?

yes

 

[HugotheDuke]

Iceland map, please?

 

[Johan]

Would really appreciate a screenshot! That sounds about right for Finnmark, but way too low for Lofoten and Helgeland. I want to compare it properly with the census from 1769 for detailed data and good estimates from the 1600s (when Norway's population was back to around the same level as before the Black death).

 

[mermaidtyrone]

I would argue these would constitute as raids more than actual military maneuvers. There was no attempt at capturing territory or fighting opposing troops, but simply to cause damage to the opponent. Guerilla fighting simply, with very small numbers of men. The validity of the wasteland would very much depend on what kind of combat we will be seeing in the game. If the game will allow such guerilla warfare to be preformed with tiny stacks, then sure, then the wasteland won't make sense, I will grant you that. However, if war is going to be represented like in Eu4, with large armies moving about, it makes very little sense for such an army to march through such terrain. On the other hand, if they include a proper supply system, perhaps like that found in Imperator, then the wasteland wouldn't be needed on the basis that you wouldn't take armies there due to the lack of supply.

Well I recall there being talk of some impassable terrains actually being passable, but with heavy attrition. However if that Karelian land is to be impassable, then basically the whole of Lapland except the coasts should be too.

 

[BurnBird]

Well I recall there being talk of some impassable terrains actually being passable, but with heavy attrition. However if that Karelian land is to be impassable, then basically the whole of Lapland except the coasts should be too.

I mean, I honestly wouldn't be opposed to large parts of Lapland being impassable, perhaps with the exception of along the rivers.

 

[simon21715]

Himmerfjärden is drawn FAR too much to the west.. should be here.

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Even then I think real life Nyköping is in Kolmården location, see the small bay in southeastern Kolmården, that's where real Nyköping is. And the city of Västerås seems to kind of be in Enköping location (compare Västeråsfjärden on a real map and the location map). Even if it's technically in Västerås location, I think adding some margin wouldn't hurt.

I also think Vadstena location doesn't actually contain Vadstena. See the small bay in northeastern Vättern

And please add Hjälmaren

 

[Pescavelho]

2) Many a history book will make a distinction for Savonians at this point of history, or even earlier.

Mikael Agricola lists the heimot as: Finns, Tavastians and Karelians. Obviously not an authoritative source though.

 

[Slime99]

This is not flatlands

 

[Futski]

What do you think of the Kalundborg location? It is so large and incorporates southern areas that feel very distinct from Kalundborg. Sorø has such a rich history as does Næstved (though of course that is under Ringsted). Would it make sense to split Næstved and Vordingborg from Ringsted, or are we getting greedy?

I think Sorø suffers from being too close to Ringsted. Sorø and Ringsted needs to sten-saks-papir about who gets the name.

Kalundborg should be represented, but it could easily be split up towards the south, but whether it should be Slagelse or Korsør, I don't know, both have valid claims.

I fear Næstved and Vordingborg has the same issue as Sorø and Ringsted, they are too close, even if they are both important places historically.

 

[Goldchruzi]

How come the finnic Vepsä & Ingrians are generic Animist when there exists a specific finnic Ukonusko faith?? Oversight?

As an aside, Estonia should be more pagan considering the 1343 pagan uprising. Liv culture also makes little sense to be Romuva instead of Ukonusko as they're finnic (Livonian) rather than Baltic (Latgalian)

 

[mermaidtyrone]

Tammerfors should be called Pirkkala / Birkala as this was the administrative parish of the time. Tampere wasn't founded until 1779.

 

[qweyt]

There are a few mistakes in the map of Finland that I have noticed.

Cultures:
- Bjarmian is nonsense. The term itself is a name Scandinavian explorers gave to various Finnic peoples they encountered, not an actual historical people group. The area currently given to Bjarmian should be split between Sami in Kola, Karelian in White Karelia and perhaps some Vepsian as well.
- Tavastian is placed too far east. It currently includes much of Savonia while leaving out large parts of historical Tavastian heartland.
- Finnish culture is a bit weird as a whole. If you want to replace Bjarmian with something that makes sense, I think Ostrobothnian would be good. It was at the game's start date just as separate from the other Finnish cultures as the others. The people in Finland Proper were quite similar to Tavastians though, so Finnish could just be merged into Tavastian, but it can also be left there.
(Attached a map of how the culture map in Finland should look like)

Locations:
- Heinola is misplaced. In reality it is located between Lahti and Joutsa.
- Mikkeli is also slightly misplaced and should be about where the Heinola location is currently.
- Alakurtti is misplaced. It should be much closer to Salla.
- Siikalatva is misspelled. On the map it says Sikkalatva.
- The location Kasivarren is incorrectly named. It is a misspelling of "Käsivarren Lappi" which means "Lappland of the arm", named so because looking at the shape of Finland on the map that part kinda looks like an arm. The name makes zero sense for the game's period long before Finland's modern shape on the map came to be. Also all other locations are named after towns, so this should be Kilpisjärvi instead, as it's the biggest town in the area. Though I personally would remove the entire location as Kilpisjärvi has only 114 people now and has never been significant enough for its inclusion to make sense.
- There are two locations, Prirechnyi and Suenokele which I think are different names for the same village. One of the locations should be removed as that area does not have enough population to warrant that many locations.
- That huge wasteland just off the eastern border of Finland does not deserve to be there. While not super important historically it was more so than some of the locations in northern Lappland and people did move through that area enough for locations to be added there. I already proposed above the removal of a couple locations in Lappland, perhaps they could be moved into this area.

 

[Chieron]

500 meters up and down is basically flatlands.

But those altitude changes are not even common in the Alps. Only the mountain pastures will be that different from the valley grounds. But nobody fights there or builds stuff on those.

So far, the logic how the topography class is determined has always been very vague in every maptalk. Of course, we do not actually know, what effects the "roughness class" entails. However, mere altitude measures seem to be rather pointless as determiner. A flat highland is much easier to handle than a rough lowland for all imaginable purposes (transportation, battles, construction,..). Or marshes, those appear to be strictly below sea level, but in reality that is not the relevant part. That terrain is usually swampy, which of course also occurs elsewhere and seems to be a vegetation class in PC.. The geographic classification system as displayed is quite weird.

When I think about battle effects, there would be a huge difference between totally flat terrain without any hills or drainage ditches and quite flat terrain with rolling hills (say 10-20m elevation differences) or small rivers. With the 500m logic, even rough hills and mesas are simply "flat". That does not seem useful. A sheer 50m cliff face does not exist in that logic, but would alter a potential battle extremly.

 

[Ahmadmltft]

We could. But provinces don't have support for dynamic names yet.

"Yet" does that mean that eventually they will?

 

[Linbot#6018]

Shouldn't you be able to recreate the modern OTL Swedish-Finnish border? Also, I think it's a bit strange that the locations in the Salla region follows the post-Winter War frontier.

 

[Johan]

5. ⁠Swedish should only be the Majority in Egentligen Finland, everywhere else it should be a ruling minority. The Ostrobothnian swedes hadn’t settled there by this point.

Sources?

Most swedish speakers that emigrated north went to the eastern side in the 14th and 13th century.