Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Benis69]

I made an account to give input on names in Finland.
Ekenäs should more accurately be named Raseborg, as that is the castle which dominated the area and what the county is referred too.
"Korsholm" ought to be Vasa, despite the town not being founded yet because Vasa has not come to power, as Karleby north of it is still named Karleby despite it not being founded until 1620 by Gustav Vasa's grandson Gustavus Adolphus! These should be named according to the same system for consistency's sake.
Porvoo is the finnish name despite it should use the swedish name Borgå like the surrounding locations. Same with Koivisto which ought to be Björkö.

 

[Ipponen]

Surely if the lakes conflict with location borders, it should be the locations that are changed?

I agree, but I specifically meant provinces not locations, as some province borders have doubled as state borders historically. For example the historical border of the Treaty of Teusina followed the eastern border of the province of Savolax. The border there goes near some lakes in the south, but doesn't historically go through them. That's why the same happens on the map I drew. I guess to preserve the historical shape for the most part the lakes could maybe be made a little bigger and be moved a little further south while the province border is raised a little bit to the north.

 

[DoctorSnakes]

Nice work, but I think the border between Oslo and Ski (or rather Follo if renamed) should be moved more towards the east/southeast. Until the fire that happened in 1624, much of the city was situated near the Alna river. The mouth of the river was approximately located where the ruins of Mariakirken lie today:

I don't know how warped the map projection for PC is compared to the one above, but I'm thinking the border should at least be east of Nesoddtangen peninsula. I'm thinking of something like this for the border between Oslo and Follo:

Also, a little side note. While researching, I found a useful page containing the syssels of Norway around the 1300s. I dare not copy it here in case it's against copyright law, but you can access it here. Maybe it could be of use.

 

[Hosumaija]

Fantastic stuff! I do however have to complain about the very poor names in Northern Fennoscandia. I assume this will be worked on more later but either way…
There’s seemingly no consistent pattern to when something has a Sámi or Meänkieli or Modern Swedish or Old* Swedish name. Furthermore a ton of the names are just flat out misspelled. I’d ofc recommend having the names be of the majority culture at game start (are dynamic cultural names a thing btw?).

Furthermore, while perhaps it is simply not visible in these maps, the Sámi were very widespread throughout Scandinavia and I’d expect them to be visible as minority culture in a lot of places. I’ve attached a map from Den långa medeltiden : de nordiska ländernas historia från folkvandringstid till reformation by Fredrik Charpentier Ljungqvist which shows the extent of Sámi habitation in the 1100s.

I cannot in the moment bring up a specific source but for Kven not to be represented in Pajala and Kittilä by this time is off to me. The fact that Sámi is not more present in modern Kainuu is very off and it’s questionable that Kven would even be a majority in much of it. There’s also the question of how present Kvens should or should not be further inland (as minority) considering the semi-nomadic lifestyle in which the further inland lakes and marshes were vital. For further reading Talmarapporten by Judit Malmgren et. al. is vital.

 

[Brynjar]

Also, a little side note. While researching, I found a useful page containing the syssels of Norway around the 1300s. I dare not copy it here in case it's against copyright law, but you can access it here. Maybe it could be of use.

That looks like the same map as this one (and in another book I have), which I intended to post, but forgot about. Since this version is on an completely open website, it should be ok to post directly:

Source: https://www.norgeshistorie.no/hoymiddelalder/0910-ble-norge-en-stat-i-hoymiddelalderen.html

 

[Brynjar]

Quick response, I agree. Johan responded to me and I realised I'd used the wrong provinces as measuring stick. I did a speedy (so ignore wasteland borders) much amended map with much fewer suggestions that would be +3 locations for Firda/Sogn together here, splitting sogndal once, one province for ytre sogn, and reclaiming indre nordfjord from wasteland. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...f-july-2024-scandinavia.1695964/post-29781003

I do think the population in the region is a bit under what would make sense both based on 1600s population for Vestlandet and based on leidang. Firda having 7066 pop while being expected to field 1000 oarsmen (and more crew on top) feels off, for example. In particular when it has a third of ytre sogn on the map. Northern Trøndelag is much worse off in this regard on Caesars' map but its still notable here.

For what you said about Molde, an alternative name could be Veøy, which was a tingstad and trade spot. Olav Håkonsson made an official pronouncement in 1384 that trade in Romsdal should happen on Veøy, as the kaupang of the region, though it would lose its importance from the 1500s and onwards.

Other than what you've written, I'd make a general suggestion for them to revisit the fjords on the west coast. I've mentioned Firda and Sogn's waterways, but Hordaland also has a questionable coastline. Nordhordland, Bergen and Moster being the ones that look most off. Voss as a location also seem shifted too far south compared to IRL. Definitely hope to see more lakes added too, in particular Mjøsa.

I have edited my post to include a link to that post as well.

As for Molde/Veøy, I did consider suggesting Veøy, but ended up dismissing the idea. In part because naming a fairly large location after an island with an area of 1.1 km^2 feels wrong, and in part because the settlement lost its relevance part way through the game's time line.

 

[Hosumaija]

A not even nearly exhaustive list over names in Northern Fennoscandia that should be changed. The ones marked with '...' especially. Italic indicates a Sámi name and bold Meänkieli.

'Gellivaara' to Jiellevárri
Nikkaluokta to Nihkkáluokta
'Raunala' to Rounala
'Enontakis' to Eonadat
Abisko to Ábeskovvu
'Juckasjarvi' to Čohkkiras
Jokkmokk to Jåhkåmåhkke
Arjeplog to Árjepluovve
Kvikkjock to Gamájåhkå
'Socksjock' to Suoksjåhkå
'Muorionska' to Juŋgá
'Nunnanen' to Muoná

'Korpilombo' to either Soukolo or Korpilompolo
Kittilä should be changed to Gihttel if you keep Sámi as the majority culture.
Torneå to Tornio
Råneå to Rauna
Piteå to Piitime
Kiemi to Kemi
'Hienatiemi' to Hietaniemi
Gråtesk to Gråträsk or Jeärbmure
Bränna to Ylikainus or Pränni (I'm uncertain as to why it's called Bränna and not Överkalix however I am not acquainted specifically with Överkalix's history)
Bodebyn to Puuti or Suttes

This list is based both on my own knowledge as native to the area and variously Lantmäteriet, Wikipedia, and ISoF. It is probably not perfect.
It also assumes the counties' names should match the majority culture at game start.

 

[TheDungen]

I think Rønneby is in the correct place but Brekne could be renamed to Lykkeby/Lyckeby/Lyckå as it was a Market Town

Ronneby is in the eastern part of the area assigned to Ronneby or the western part of the area assigned to Brekne. It is by far the most important city in Blekinge prior to Karlskrona (With the possible exception of Kristianople) so it makes sense it has a location, and one can argue maybe it should not be overwritten by Karlskrona. On the other hand about half it's population were forcibly migrated to Karlskrona when that city was constructed.

There's also the issue of Kristianople which was a city denmark built in the eastern most location of Belkinge before Karlskrona. I think the best way to handle it is have the easternmost location be Lycke (Lyckeby/Lyckeborg) and then under appropriate conditions if owned be denmark be renamed Kristianople and then under apporpriate conditions if owned by Sweden have it be renamed Karlskrona. the last should have significatn events about it. Karlskrona was the thrid city of Sweden after Stockholm and Riga and there's some argument if the intention was to move the capital there at one point (much more central in the empire).

 

[TheDungen]

Will there be a Sámi formable equivalent to Scandinavia?

I hate Scandinavia as a fromable tag anyway. it's totally anachronistic.

 

[Foke]

I hate Scandinavia as a fromable tag anyway. it's totally anachronistic.

Yeah totally

 

[TheDungen]

Yeah totally

Yes... that's about a movement that rose to prominence in the 1840s.

 

[Foke]

Yes... that's about a movement that rose to prominence in the 1840s.

Then Italy and Germany are anachronistic too and shouldn't be formable

 

[Viddi]

Scandinavia was not formed in the version of history that happened, but would be a very plausible late-game nation state in different historical circumstances. The languages are so similar as to almost be dialects of each other. If a few battles, royal marriages and alliances had developed differently, it's not any less plausible than a unified Germany or Italy within the timeframe.

 

[TheDungen]

Then Italy and Germany are anachronistic too and shouldn't be formable

Not saying it shouldnt' be formable, I just don't like the name which implies the 19th century movmeent. If it was formed by say the Kalmar Union it should be called the Kalmar Union or something. But other than that... if Sweden conquered all of the Scandinavian countries it would call itself Sweden. It calling itself somehting else is basically a concession to the others not a brag. Hence why if it's formed diplomatically I think the tag switch is justified, though again if it's formed from the union at the start of the game it shouldn't be Scandinavia but the Kalmar union.
Also Italy and Germany existed prior to the start of project caesar. In the early CK era.

 

[Linbot#6018]

Then Italy and Germany are anachronistic too and shouldn't be formable

Ask someone in 1337 what "Germany" and "Italy" are, and they'd know. They'd also recognise the inhabitants of those regions as Germans and Italians. But they'd have never heard of any place called "Scandinavia", nor any people called "Scandinavians".

If you don't believe me, I'll let the words of Petrarch speak for me. He was a poet alive in 1337, and wrote these words just seven years after Project Caesar's start date. Emphasis mine.

My Italy, although talking does not serve to heal the mortal wounds which I see so thick on your fair body, it pleases me at least that my sighs are such as the Tiber hopes for, and the Arno, and the Po, where I now sit heavy with grief. Ruler of heaven, I ask that the pity which led you to earth may turn you to your dearly beloved country: see , Gracious Lord, what cruel war springs from what slight causes. Open, Father, and soften and untie the hearts that fierce and haughty Mars harden and locks up. Make truth be heard there – whatever I may be – through my tongue.


You, in whose hands fortune has put control of our fair country, no pity for which seems to constrain you, what are so many foreign swords doing here? Why is the verdant earth covered with the blood of barbarians? A vain error deludes you; you see littleand think you see much, for you seek love or faith in venal hearts. He who possesses the most forces is most entangled by his enemies. O deluge gathered from what wild desert to inundate our gentle fields!If this happens to us by our own hands. Who will there now be to saveus?


Nature provided well for us when she placed the shield of the Alps between us and the German frenzy, but blind greed clashing with its own good, has now so contrived as to cause sores on the healthy body.Now within a single cage wild animals and tame flocks nestle together in such a way that the better always suffers; and t our greater grief, this is from the descendants of the people without law, whose side(as we read) was so laid open by Marius that the memory of the deed is still alive, when thirsty and tired he drank as much blood as waterfrom the river.


I’ll say nothing of Caesar, who on every shore where he sent our iron made the grass bloody from their veins. Now it seems – I know not through what evil star – that heaven has us, thanks to you to whom so much was entrusted. Your divided wills lay wastehe most beautiful part of the world. What sin, what judgment, what destiny causes you to oppress your poor neighbor, and to pursue his afflicted and scattered fortunes, and to seek our forces in foreigncountries and to be pleased that blood is shed and souls sold for a price? I talk to say the truth, not out of hatred or scorn of others.


After so many proofs are you still unaware of the deceit of the Bavarian, who raising a finger trifles with death? But your blood rains more freely, for a different rage lashes you on. For a few hours thinkof yourselves and you will see how dear he who holds himself cheap holds others. Noble Latin blood, remove from yourself these harmful burdens; do not make an idol of an empty name; for that the fury fromup there, a backward people, overcomes us in intelligence, is no natural thing but our own fault.


Is it not this the ground that I first touched? Is not this my nest, where I was so sweetly nurtured? Is not this the homeland in which I trust, the benign, devout mother that covers both my parents? For the love of God, let such thoughts sometimes move you, and look with pity on the tears of the grieving people, that for repose puts its hope in you alone, after God; and provided you just show some sign of pity, vertú will take arms against fury and the battle will be brief, for the ancient valor is not yet dead in Italian hearts.


Lords, look how time flies, and how life flees and death is at our shoulders. You are here now; think of your departure, for the soul, naked and alone, must arrive at that uncertain path. In passing throughthis valley may it please you to put down hatred and disdain, winds contrary to the serene life, and let the time which is spent in causing others pain be converted to some worthy act of hand or mind, to something praiseworthy, to some honorable pursuit. In this way one is glad here below and finds the way open to heaven.


Song, I enjoin you to tell your meaning courteously, for you must go among haughty people, and their wills are already full of the worst old habits ever hostile to the truth. You will try your luck amongthe magnanimous few to whom the good is pleasing. Say to them: "Who will give me assurance? I go crying: Peace, peace, peace."

 

[Engram]

Not saying it shouldnt' be formable, I just don't like the name which implies the 19th century movmeent. If it was formed by say the Kalmar Union it should be called the Kalmar Union or something. But other than that... if Sweden conquered all of the Scandinavian countries it would call itself Sweden. It calling itself somehting else is basically a concession to the others not a brag. Hence why if it's formed diplomatically I think the tag switch is justified, though again if it's formed from the union at the start of the game it shouldn't be Scandinavia but the Kalmar union.
Also Italy and Germany existed prior to the start of project caesar. In the early CK era.

Why would it be called Kalmar Union over literally anything else? In our fictional timeline, there will be no coronation in Kalmar. Scandinavia is a good alt history name for a country that encompasses Scandinavia.

Let's call Germany Paris Union instead /s

 

[Ipponen]

Yeah totally

I think unified Scandinavia should be called "Denmark".

 

[Brynjar]

Yeah totally

Someone wanting to form a nation is very far from that nation actually being formed.

 

[FräscheTümler]

I'm a bit late but I hope you still read the feedback here. There are a couple of points I wanted to make about North Frisia.

• This was already mentioned, but because it's really important I just want to make the point again: Eiderstedt should not be a part of Dithmarschen. I don't understand why it was depicted as such in EU4 or why it seems to be the case here again. It was settled in the 8th century by Frisians along with the rest of the North Frisian islands, it's separated from Dithmarschen by the largest river in the area and it has politically always been a part of Schleswig. There is no cultural, geographic or political reason why it should belong to Dithmarschen. I think there have already been posted more than enough maps in this thread that show this.
• At the start of the game Husum was of no importance to the surrounding area. It only started to grow in the second half of the 14th century. As someone mentioned already, up until the first great Mandränke (the great flood of 1362), the major port in the area was Rungholt on the island of Strand to the west of Husum. Rungholt was destroyed in the flood and it was only afterwards that Husum started to grow, due to survivors from Strand settling there as well as support from the Dukes of Schleswig. I would very much suggest starting out with Rungholt as the main city and moving it to Husum in 1362 together with an event (or whatever mechanic makes the most sense) for the Mandränke.
  Source (in German): Die Nordfriesen im Mittelalter, Albert Panten, Nordfriisk Instituut 2004 (new edition from 2010) - specifically the section "Die Anfänge Husums und die Stadt Tondern" starting on page 18, for the Mandränke also the previous section
• Somewhat continuing the previous points, I'd personally have two locations for the west coast of Schleswig: Rungholt/Husum with roughly the southern half of modern day North Frisia (including Eiderstedt), and Tønder with everything else south of Ribe as Tønder also was an important port at the time (and much older than Husum), however if you don't want to add more locations I guess either one works.
• I'm curious if it will be possible to dynamically change the coast lines in the game? I guess it would only be a cosmetic thing, but the North Frisian coast line has changed quite significantly in the timeframe that is depicted. A lot of land in what is now the wadden sea was lost while at the same time the main land has grown outwards with land reclaimation efforts. If this is not planned, I think there should be more islands and also some of the existing ones should be larger. At the moment it looks nothing like even what is there today, let alone what would have been there 400 or even 700 years ago.
• I assume that culture dependent naming will be a thing again, so I would like to suggest some Frisian names for the locations in and around Schleswig:
  • Husum -> Hüsem, adj: hüsemer
  • Tønder -> Tuner, adj: tunernge
  • Ribe -> Ripen, adj: riper
  • Aabenraa -> Ååwenru, adj: ååwenruer
  • Flensburg -> Flansborj, adj: flansborjer
  • Schleswig -> Slaswik, adj: slaswiker
  • Kiel -> Kil, adj: kiler
  • Rendsburg -> Ransborj, adj: ransborjer
    Source (German again): Geographische Adjektive und Einwohnernamen im Nordfriesischen, Jarich Hoekstra

 

[DoctorSnakes]

I'm a bit late but I hope you still read the feedback here. There are a couple of points I wanted to make about North Frisia.

• This was already mentioned and maybe you've changed it already, but because there was no reaction and it's really important I just want to make the point again: Eiderstedt should not be a part of Dithmarschen. I really don't understand why it was depicted as such in EU4 or why it seems to be the case here again. It was settled in the 8th century by Frisians along with the rest of the North Frisian islands, it's separated from Dithmarschen by the largest river in the area and it has politically always been a part of Schleswig. There is no cultural, geographic or political reason why it should belong to Dithmarschen. I think there have already been posted more than enough maps in this thread that show this.
• At the start of the game Husum was of no importance to the surrounding area. It only started to grow in the second half of the 14th century. As someone mentioned already, up until the first great Mandränke (the great flood of 1362), the major port in the area was Rungholt on the island of Strand to the west of Husum. Rungholt was destroyed in the flood and it was only afterwards that Husum started to grow, due to survivors from Strand settling there as well as support from the Dukes of Schleswig. I would very much suggest starting out with Rungholt as the main city and moving it to Husum in 1362 together with an event (or whatever mechanic makes the most sense) for the Mandränke.
  Source (in German): Die Nordfriesen im Mittelalter, Albert Panten, Nordfriisk Instituut 2004 (new edition from 2010) - specifically the section "Die Anfänge Husums und die Stadt Tondern" starting on page 18, for the Mandränke also the previous section
• Somewhat continuing the previous points, I'd personally have two locations for the west coast of Schleswig: Rungholt/Husum with roughly the southern half of modern day North Frisia (including Eiderstedt), and Tønder with everything else south of Ribe as Tønder also was an important port at the time (and much older than Husum), however if you don't want to add more locations I guess either one works.
• I'm curious if it will be possible to dynamically change the coast lines in the game? I guess it would only be a cosmetic thing, but the North Frisian coast line has changed quite significantly in the timeframe that is depicted. A lot of land in what is now the wadden sea was lost while at the same time the main land has grown outwards with land reclaimamation efforts. If this is not planned, I think there should be more islands and also some of the existing ones should be larger. At the moment it looks nothing like even what is there today, let alone what would have been there 400 or even 700 years ago.
• I assume that culture dependent naming will be a thing again, so I would like to suggest some Frisian names for the locations in and around Schleswig:
  • Husum -> Hüsem, adj: hüseme
  • Tønder -> Tuner, adj: tunernge
  • Ribe -> Ripen, adj: riper
  • Aabenraa -> Ååwenru, adj: ååwenruer
  • Flensburg -> Flansborj, adj: flansborjer
  • Schleswig -> Slaswik, adj: slaswiker
  • Kiel -> Kil, adj: kiler
    Source (German again): Geographische Adjektive und Einwohnernamen im Nordfriesischen, Jarich Hoekstra

Post the feedback in the relevant Tinto Maps post. They requested it, since it makes it easier for them. They do look at older posts.