Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[TheDungen]

Why would it be called Kalmar Union over literally anything else? In our fictional timeline, there will be no coronation in Kalmar. Scandinavia is a good alt history name for a country that encompasses Scandinavia.

Let's call Germany Paris Union instead /s

Then have an event where you chose where the treaty is signed and the country gets named for that.

 

[Chieron]

But no one called the Kalmar Union Scandinavia.

I doubt that many people referred to that entity much at all. It was three countries under the same monarch, not a unified one. In most cases you either refer to the relevant country or the monarch, not the nebulous "union". The Kalmar Union is more the concept of this personal union, not a country.
If the three kingdoms would've actually been united as a country, a geographical term would've been chosen as the proper name.

 

[TheDungen]

I doubt that many people referred to that entity much at all. It was three countries under the same monarch, not a unified one. In most cases you either refer to the relevant country or the monarch, not the nebulous "union". The Kalmar Union is more the concept of this personal union, not a country.
If the three kingdoms would've actually been united as a country, a geographical term would've been chosen as the proper name.

I would asusme it would have been something like The union of northern crowns or something like that, not Scandinavia. I don't think the term existed when the Kalmar union was around. It sure as heck wasn't anything people identified with like Italian and german. Heck the people of Sweden barely identified as Swedish.

 

[Capitano Diego Alatriste]

I would asusme it would have been something like The union of northern crowns or something like that, not Scandinavia. I don't think the term existed when the Kalmar union was around. It sure as heck wasn't anything people identified with like Italian and german. Heck the people of Sweden barely identified as Swedish.

Not going to lie, The union of northern crowns or The Northern Empire sounds cooler than Scandinavia. Plus it could also be better name to fit the finns in.

 

[TheDungen]

Not going to lie, The union of northern crowns or The Northern Empire sounds cooler than Scandinavia.

I've alwys modded Eu4 to make it the Nordic Union, but that is of course as anachronistic as Scandinavia.

 

[DoctorSnakes]

I would asusme it would have been something like The union of northern crowns or something like that, not Scandinavia. I don't think the term existed when the Kalmar union was around. It sure as heck wasn't anything people identified with like Italian and german. Heck the people of Sweden barely identified as Swedish.

I am pretty sure that "Kalmar Union" is also just a historiographical term for the union and not a contemporary name for it. Scandinavia and its variants, on the other hand, have been around for quite a long time. Not so much in the native languages, but in Latin. There is a good chance a united Scandinavian kingdom would have ended up being called Scandinavia due to Latin Catholic influence.

 

[Linbot#6018]

I am pretty sure that "Kalmar Union" is also just a historiographical term for the union and not a contemporary name for it. Scandinavia and its variants, on the other hand, have been around for quite a long time. Not so much in the native languages, but in Latin. There is a good chance a united Scandinavian kingdom would have ended up being called Scandinavia due to Latin Catholic influence.

I mean it seems as though by far the most likely thing for it to be called would be Denmark

Clearly we should add an option for Sweden to form Denmark if it unites Scandinavia

 

[TheDungen]

I mean it seems as though by far the most likely thing for it to be called would be Denmark

Clearly we should add an option for Sweden to form Denmark if it unites Scandinavia

No I very much doubt that, the swedish rising up and evicting the danish shows they didn't feel very danish. If so it would probalby be Magna Danica, greater Denmark.

 

[Danskjävel]

Hopefully not-EU5 will have different options for forming overarching tags.

And yes, Scandinavia doesn't sound especially cool or immersive if you form it in the middle of the 16th century. But where things like 'Union of the Northern Crowns' sounds cool, it's even less immersive than 'Scandinavia', which at least somewhat ressembles a geographical region.

The concept of "(the) North" as more than barbarism enters intellectual circles in the 18th century and thus around the same time as 'Scandinavia' is being used to describe languages. But 'the North' is an extremely vague concept. Goethe writes that the French speaks of Berlin as Germans do of Stockholm, and historian Bernd Brunner sums it up well: "the North begins where the South ends" (2023, p. 6). Don't get me wrong, this has changed, and today Norden (the North) carry very specific connotations, praxis and international institutions. But the argument that, for the sake of historicity, 'Scandinavia' should be ditched for something with 'the North' doesn't hold up.

Scandinavia in a modern sense leaves out Greenland, Faroe Islands, Iceland (and to some also Finland), in contrast to the North (Norden), but set in 16th century, realisticly these areas would be considered very peripheral, and the languages spoken by the vast majority of inhabitants would be Scandinavian (Swedish, Norwegian and Danish). The North at the time is practically a contrast to the South.

I hope we're getting some options in cases like this. Scandinavia is fine, but more dynamic options for formations would be great.

Sources:
Brunner, Bernd (2023): Extreme North. A Cultural History. Norton.

Etymology of "Scandinavian" by etymonline

"generally in mild contempt"). Alternative adjective Scandian (1660s) is from Latin… See origin and meaning of scandinavian.

www.etymonline.com

 

[TheDungen]

Hopefully not-EU5 will have different options for forming overarching tags.

And yes, Scandinavia doesn't sound especially cool or immersive if you form it in the middle of the 16th century. But where things like 'Union of the Northern Crowns' sounds cool, it's even less immersive than 'Scandinavia', which at least somewhat ressembles a geographical region.

The concept of "(the) North" as more than barbarism enters intellectual circles in the 18th century and thus around the same time as 'Scandinavia' is being used to describe languages. But 'the North' is an extremely vague concept. Goethe writes that the French speaks of Berlin as Germans do of Stockholm, and historian Bernd Brunner sums it up well: "the North begins where the South ends" (2023, p. 6). Don't get me wrong, this has changed, and today Norden (the North) carry very specific connotations, praxis and international institutions. But the argument that, for the sake of historicity, 'Scandinavia' should be ditched for something with 'the North' doesn't hold up.

Scandinavia in a modern sense leaves out Greenland, Faroe Islands, Iceland (and to some also Finland), in contrast to the North (Norden), but set in 16th century, realisticly these areas would be considered very peripheral, and the languages spoken by the vast majority of inhabitants would be Scandinavian (Swedish, Norwegian and Danish). The North at the time is practically a contrast to the South.

I hope we're getting some options in cases like this. Scandinavia is fine, but more dynamic options for formations would be great.

Sources:
Brunner, Bernd (2023): Extreme North. A Cultural History. Norton.

Etymology of "Scandinavian" by etymonline

"generally in mild contempt"). Alternative adjective Scandian (1660s) is from Latin… See origin and meaning of scandinavian.

www.etymonline.com

I would say the north actually starts being used by the 30 years war, wasn't Gustavus II Adolphus the Lion of the North?

The likeliest name for a Kalmar union become a single kingdom is likely the united kingdoms (Of Denmark Sweden and Norway). Preferably we should get an event which lets us name the union. Keep the forming members name, Scandinavia or something with Nordic.

Edit: The term Septentrionalis (northern in latin) is used to referer to these all in 1555 (source). The norse sagas use Norðrlönd. I would say the concept of Norden exists long before Scandinavia does.

 

[Danskjävel]

I would say the north actually starts being used by the 30 years war, wasn't Gustavus II Adolphus the Lion of the North?

The likeliest name for a Kalmar union become a single kingdom is likely the united kingdoms (Of Denmark Sweden and Norway). Preferably we should get an event which lets us name the union. Keep the forming members name, Scandinavia or something with Nordic.

You might be right, but I'm not sure this denotes "the North" as the three kingdoms. But rather I think refers to a more general concept as the north/south division of Europe during the 30 years war. But I wouldn't know!

I agree with having options, but I don't think 'Nordic' should be one. This is a late 19th (post Scandinavism) term, and implies qualities inherent to the Nordic.

 

[TheDungen]

You might be right, but I'm not sure this denotes "the North" as the three kingdoms. But rather I think refers to a more general concept as the north/south division of Europe during the 30 years war. But I wouldn't know!

I agree with having options, but I don't think 'Nordic' should be one. This is a late 19th (post Scandinavism) term, and implies qualities inherent to the Nordic.

The term Septentrionalis (northern in latin) is used to referer to these all in 1555 (source). The norse sagas use Norðrlönd. I would say the concept of Norden exists long before Scandinavia does.

The linkeliest name for it might be Imperium Septentrionale or Regnum Septentrionale.

Edit: Here's a cool thing Septentrionale actually referes to the starts of the northern sky. And even today we have Nordstjärneordern in Sweden. It may not be a good country name but I could eaisly see a title of a monarch of thus region united carrying the title upholder of the northern vault of the heavens or somehting like that.

 

[Linbot#6018]

No I very much doubt that, the swedish rising up and evicting the danish shows they didn't feel very danish. If so it would probalby be Magna Danica, greater Denmark.

The alternative history we require here in order for Scandinavia to remain united is one where that does not happen and their allegiance to Denmark is confirmed.

 

[Danskjävel]

The term Septentrionalis (northern in latin) is used to referer to these all in 1555 (source). The norse sagas use Norðrlönd. I would say the concept of Norden exists long before Scandinavia does.

The linkeliest name for it might be Imperium Septentrionale.

Oh well, this is new to me. And to Bernd Brunner writing the history of the idea of Norden/the North it seems

Also the Wiki-article sums up well the specific Swedish idea of the North as a very Swedish thing, if it is to be believed "It long remained for the rest of Europe the authority on Swedish matters". Until recently Nordiska Museet did a similar thing with exhibiting "det nordiska", but with ultimately only Swedish objects. But that's another discussion

Interesting to read about Norðrlönd. I have several sources describing the emergence of the concept of "the North", but none of them mention neither Norðrlönd or Gustavus Adolphus. The former is still rather vague, and as far as I can see mainly found in Icelandic litterature where it would make sense to have a narrative of their origin (be it Norway or a larger context). Was there a general idea of Norden in medieval Scandinavia (barring Iceland)? I don't know. But obviously in some circles it would be evident that you could communicate in your own language with people in some places, and in some places you couldn't. Still, as the author of the paper The Emergence of Norðrlönd in Old Norse Medieval Texts, ca. 1100-1400 writes:

"The term Norðrlönd thus had a dual meaning, depending on the context. It was either a vaguely defined region, north of the great power centres in the South, or a micro-region within a system of four competing structures to the West, North, East and South." (Jakobsson 2011).

Later he writes that the advent of Catholicism also meant that instead of contrasting with the Catholic south (Rus' east and British west), those in power tried to relate to the south instead of contrasting themselves. It seems we might actually have a concept that more or less disappeared during the time Project Caesar covers. And when it resurges in more popular use in the late 19th century, it refers to practially the same context Old Norse legends that Jakobsson are analysing.

I think this is very indicative of any discussion of Norden, it's always so vague what it actually refers to. Ask any person in the modern Norden region and they can relate to the concept, but ask them to elaborate on how and why and it's a different story.

I still think we should be careful conflating the North with Nordic, but it seems there is some merit to having some formable related to the term North. Maybe Norðrlönd is actually a pretty good suggestion?

 

[Brynjar]

Formable Scandinavia will be in the game, 100%.

Unfortunately, yes. Given the post I was quoting, it should be fairly obvious I was referring to real life though, and not the game.

 

[Brynjar]

There is a Silver Mine in Kongsberg (theoretically it should not be open yet, but..), but population levels are so low, that its hard to really exploit it..

Kongsberg is currently listed with 24% higher population at the start of the game than it had in the census of 1769. At the mine's peak employment numbers in 1770 it had 4075 employees. If the current starting population is too low for it to be exploitable, something is likely terribly wrong with your whole population/employment model.

Kongsberg sølvverk – Store norske leksikon

Kongsberg sølvverk var et norsk bergverk som var i drift i 335 år, fra 1623 til 1958. Det var landets største bergverk målt i arbeidsinnsats, med anslagsvis 300 000 nedlagte årsverk pluss omfattende sesongarbeid med skogsarbeid og kjøring. Verket var viktig for staten som produsent av myntmetall.

snl.no

Folketellingen 1769 - Historisk Statistikk - Statistisk sentralbyrå

www.ssb.no

The Kongsberg population can be found on page 46:

 

[Johan]

Kongsberg is currently listed with 24% higher population at the start of the game than it had in the census of 1769. At the mine's peak employment numbers in 1770 it had 4075 employees. If the current starting population is too low for it to be exploitable, something is likely terribly wrong with your whole population/employment model.

Kongsberg sølvverk – Store norske leksikon

Kongsberg sølvverk var et norsk bergverk som var i drift i 335 år, fra 1623 til 1958. Det var landets største bergverk målt i arbeidsinnsats, med anslagsvis 300 000 nedlagte årsverk pluss omfattende sesongarbeid med skogsarbeid og kjøring. Verket var viktig for staten som produsent av myntmetall.

snl.no

Folketellingen 1769 - Historisk Statistikk - Statistisk sentralbyrå

www.ssb.no

The Kongsberg population can be found on page 46:
View attachment 1168653

well, i wanted MORE than just a few thousand people working with it

 

[TheDungen]

The alternative history we require here in order for Scandinavia to remain united is one where that does not happen and their allegiance to Denmark is confirmed.

the sentiment will still exist and the idea is that Denmark does something to placate Sweden to pevent the fracturing which is what is represented by it getting cores.

Oh well, this is new to me. And to Bernd Brunner writing the history of the idea of Norden/the North it seems

Also the Wiki-article sums up well the specific Swedish idea of the North as a very Swedish thing, if it is to be believed "It long remained for the rest of Europe the authority on Swedish matters". Until recently Nordiska Museet did a similar thing with exhibiting "det nordiska", but with ultimately only Swedish objects. But that's another discussion

Interesting to read about Norðrlönd. I have several sources describing the emergence of the concept of "the North", but none of them mention neither Norðrlönd or Gustavus Adolphus. The former is still rather vague, and as far as I can see mainly found in Icelandic litterature where it would make sense to have a narrative of their origin (be it Norway or a larger context). Was there a general idea of Norden in medieval Scandinavia (barring Iceland)? I don't know. But obviously in some circles it would be evident that you could communicate in your own language with people in some places, and in some places you couldn't. Still, as the author of the paper The Emergence of Norðrlönd in Old Norse Medieval Texts, ca. 1100-1400 writes:

"The term Norðrlönd thus had a dual meaning, depending on the context. It was either a vaguely defined region, north of the great power centres in the South, or a micro-region within a system of four competing structures to the West, North, East and South." (Jakobsson 2011).

Later he writes that the advent of Catholicism also meant that instead of contrasting with the Catholic south (Rus' east and British west), those in power tried to relate to the south instead of contrasting themselves. It seems we might actually have a concept that more or less disappeared during the time Project Caesar covers. And when it resurges in more popular use in the late 19th century, it refers to practially the same context Old Norse legends that Jakobsson are analysing.

I think this is very indicative of any discussion of Norden, it's always so vague what it actually refers to. Ask any person in the modern Norden region and they can relate to the concept, but ask them to elaborate on how and why and it's a different story.

I still think we should be careful conflating the North with Nordic, but it seems there is some merit to having some formable related to the term North. Maybe Norðrlönd is actually a pretty good suggestion?

The same can be said for Scandinavia though, and the idea of the north at least has existed and could be brought back in this period if a concept was needed. Unlike Scandinavia which wasn't even invented as a word at this point. The nordic kingdoms always has a concept of a kingship, they don't refer to this by any specific term in this era but there did exist one prior to this and it was norden/Norðrlönd. While Scandinavia is far more anarchronistic.

As for it being an ill defined area, so was the netherlands prior to a country in the region deciding to call themselves that.

As for you authorative opinion, I presented you primary sources from the period. These are not in dispute. I can list all the sagas where the the word shows up if you like me too. These are texts from this period or before this period. Showing there very much was a concept of norden. To dispute this you would ahev to argue that both Olaus Petri's work and the sagas are actually forgeries. And to make that claim you will need evidence not just an authoritative opinion.

 

[TheThomas]

Thank you for creating such a detailed map! The fjords and islands of western Norway are easily recognisable.

I have feedback regarding the border between the locations Fosna and Orkdal in Norway, which is also the border between the in-game provinces of Romsdalen and Sør-Trøndelag. As of now the in-game border resembles the modern administrative border after the changes that happened in 2020, when the municipality of Halsa was merged with a neighboring municipality and thus changed fylke (province/county) from Møre & Romsdal to Trøndelag. The traditional border mostly follows the pre 2020 administrative border, and should approximately follow the blue line in the picture below:

TL;DR the yellow area inside the blue line should be given to Fosna.

Sources:
- Map from 1704
- Map from 1785
- Administrative borders post and pre 2020 are shown in the first two maps on this page (Norwegian)

Thank you for reading. I look forward to play the game when it comes out, regardless of whether you find time to adjust the border

 

[Circular]

Unfortunately, yes. Given the post I was quoting, it should be fairly obvious I was referring to real life though, and not the game.

Yeah, it was obvious. I also thought that you were opposed to a formable Scandinavia on account of how anachronistic it sounds, which pertains to the game. But perhaps I was mistaken.