Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Thorum]

So, checked out the geography of Finnmark fjord coast on what to change to make gameplay more interesting,

Continuing along the coast is Tromso state. Apologies in advance for the missing lines through Øs everywhere
Tinto map :

My map : yellow = location borders, red = impassable. sea zone borders in dark blue

So, I actually mostly agree with the tinto map in this area.
1) The southwestern part of Raisa seems really disconnected, I'd put the wasteland up to the fjord and have the connection be a water crossing to Troms. I also don't see a direct connection to Kasivarren province, so I changed the shape of the impassable area a bit.
2) Troms no futher issues apart from the above, though I'd probably put the western border a bit more east to keep the fjords together.
3) I'm not really happy with the Lofoten not being islands. So I'm putting the "different" option here, which unfortunately ignores state borders. #3 is Senja plus part of Bardodalen
4) New province from southern half of Bardodalen and the mainland bit of Trondenes
5) Island province of Trondenes
6) island province of the western Lofoten
7) Ofoti (name ? current Narvik) takes most of what is drawn as Hamaroy, up to the fjord. I don't find a way to connect the currently drawn location directly through Sarek to Sweden, and the water crossing here seems appropriate. Hamaroy is on the west side of the crossing
8) Hamaroy becomes really small, and can probably be combined in one location with Steigen between Ofoto and Bodo

 

[BurnBird]

Ah, but here we have a hodgepodge of names using either swedish or finnish names for the places in no logical way whatsoever. If all the areas sweden contols were using their swedish names, that would be understandable. They are not.

Because they are not, there should be a logic behind all of it. Maybe have the areas with swedish settlement (the coast, really, and up to the provice west of helsinki) is a good compromise. All finnish names for provices in finland, finnish names for provinces with 50%+ finnish population, also good. Of course the population breakdown between swedish and finnish in 1337 is pretty much asspull anyway.

The logic is that dynamic province names aren't fully implemented yet and seeing as Scandinavia was the first region designed, it was probably also the first one to start recieving dynamic province names. It's also been many weeks since the Iberia tinto map, where they said they had been testing dynamic province names in Catalonia. Arguing about what language a province name should be in is a less than worthless exercise at this point in development.

For other people, there's also no need to post Finnish and Swedish names for all the provinces shown. I'm sure the Devs have no problem finding those names as a singular Google search immediately gives you both versions.

 

[Torakka]

The logic is that dynamic province names aren't fully implemented yet and seeing as Scandinavia was the first region designed, it was probably also the first one to start recieving dynamic province names. It's also been many weeks since the Iberia tinto map, where they said they had been testing dynamic province names in Catalonia. Arguing about what language a province name should be in is a less than worthless exercise at this point in development.

Above part I agree with.

For other people, there's also no need to post Finnish and Swedish names for all the provinces shown. I'm sure the Devs have no problem finding those names as a singular Google search immediately gives you both versions.

However, this I disagree with. While you are mostly correct that finding alternative language variants is generally easy, there is likely going to be still quite a many non-trivial cases, where a simple Google search might give wrong or no answer, like if location X had different Swedish name in 17th century than now, while the Finnish name for the same location was same in 17th century as it is now or some location Y had different spelling in Russian now than it did in 16th century. Also, it is just ever so slightly easier for devs to implement names if they can just look at some post here instead of both looking at some post here and googling the translations for names. If some enthusiastic poster had already spent the effort looking for those alternative names, then that's an effort devs don't need to spend.

 

[Aethilias]

View attachment 1165469

So you can find my comments on Norway's population (and some other things) here:
Adjusting Norway's Population and Climate

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

well, i wanted MORE than just a few thousand people working with it

I don’t follow this. If historically it peaked at a little over 4k employed shouldn’t that be what is required to achieve a historical degree of significance, with the option to expand further being avalible?

 

[blaedvardbla]

Would really appreciate a screenshot! That sounds about right for Finnmark, but way too low for Lofoten and Helgeland. I want to compare it properly with the census from 1769 for detailed data and good estimates from the 1600s (when Norway's population was back to around the same level as before the Black death).

Its important to remember that by then the danish rule had already started to impact Norway quite a lot and especially the population distribution so it dosent paint an entirely accurate picture of how many lived in each region in pre plauge days

 

[Bastiram]

Well we can see some of the suggested changes to localisations made it into southern Denmark from the German maps. eg Fyn split into 3 localisations, Lolland and Falster being separate localisations, with changes to vegetation and goods!

 

[zobo]

The logic is that dynamic province names aren't fully implemented yet and seeing as Scandinavia was the first region designed, it was probably also the first one to start recieving dynamic province names. It's also been many weeks since the Iberia tinto map, where they said they had been testing dynamic province names in Catalonia. Arguing about what language a province name should be in is a less than worthless exercise at this point in development.

For other people, there's also no need to post Finnish and Swedish names for all the provinces shown. I'm sure the Devs have no problem finding those names as a singular Google search immediately gives you both versions.

The names they did give us, in a sort of preliminary version, were put there without much logic, some of them plain wrong. They want us to comment.

Not only is that not certain, they have had that swedish version of Inari, Enare all the way from EU IV, maybe earlier. Not that EU IV has anything to do with this game, but if they didn't change it for this round, they probably wouldn't fix it without input.

Furthermore, googling Finnish names is not the only thing to do. There's also checking the map placements, substituting current names with more appropriate names for 1337 when possible.

We point out the mistakes, actual and logical, in order to help the Paradox devs and to make the end product better. Why are you trying to dissuade us?

 

[Johan]

I don’t follow this. If historically it peaked at a little over 4k employed shouldn’t that be what is required to achieve a historical degree of significance, with the option to expand further being avalible?

yeah, but I wanted MORE ...

 

[Futski]

Well we can see some of the suggested changes to localisations made it into southern Denmark from the German maps. eg Fyn split into 3 localisations, Lolland and Falster being separate localisations, with changes to vegetation and goods!

Ringsted has also been divided, so there is a Vordingborg location. And it looks like there is a Tønder location too.

 

[nonninja]

Hi.
I feel the 500m limit on flatland is to high. I find it hard to agree that all of the south of Sweden is flatlands like Danmark, or the Netherlands. As a map enjoyer like you guys here i linked a topografy map of the area that shows the hills and valleysWith all the locations its should be possible to put in moredetail.
I cant wait to play the game and I love the talks



 

[kaapeli22]

There is no way there were that many swedes in finland during those times. also how are there swedish majority provinces that arent even owned by sweden. why would oulu for example be swedish majority? also the provinces wouldnt be 100% catholic.

 

[Myballsyourchin]

yeah, will be on a monday or so..it has been

yeah, will be on a monday or so..

it has been two mondays... where is iceland and greenland? I want to confirm if you have Greenlandic Norse because I need that so much...

 

[ClayProof]

There is a tendency in Swedish historical circles especially those based in Stockholm to undervalue the importance of Götaland.

I'd argue for both a slight population increase around the important centre's as well as one if the legume provinces in the "Västgötaslätten" might be worth turning into a wheat province.

 

[Shu'al]

Several more provinces south of Lappland should have partially sami pops.
Map over Sami territories in Jämtlands län 18th-19th century attached.

Source: Karta öfver norra Sverige utvisande lapparnas skattefjäll, flyttningsvägar m.m. .... 1883. [Beskrivning. (bl. 2) Tryckt hos Gen.stabens Lit. Anst.] [2 bl. pappet, tryck

 

[TaliTek]

Love it so far! I have two suggestions. The first is to change the name of Vesterålen from "Langenes" to "Hofðasegl" or just "Hadsel", since that has always historically been the centre of the region, at least from a church and trade standpoint.
The second is to have consistency with Lófótr and Ófótr. It seems strange to me to have the one name in the nominativ and the other in the dative!

 

[ivj9]

The second is to have consistency with Lófótr and Ófótr. It seems strange to me to have the one name in the nominativ and the other in the dative!

You sent me down a hell of a rabbit-hole. Jesus.

Placenames are indeed not supposed to be written in dative-case in Old Norse (or modern Icelandic, for that matter). But the Wikipedia articles I found suggested the source of "Ofoten" to be Old Norse Ófóti. Swedish Wikipedia actually says it comes from Ófóti OR Ófótr. So apparently, Ófóti is attested..?

Attested or not, this is definitely all wrong, but not because of the dative-case. "Fóti" is actually NOT the dative for "fótr" (foot in English). The dative case in Old Norse uses a different front-vowel for the same word in the nominative case, thanks to this little thing called umlautization (same reason why plural for foot is *feet* in English). Before Old Norse (in proto-Germanic), this word used the same front-vowel in all forms.

In Old Norse, this is a particularly tricky vowel because it was alternately written three different ways (æ, œ, and ǿ). So the proper Old Norse dative for fótr should be written "fæti", "fœti", or "fǿti". The only way "fóti" might be correct would be if this were some kind of proto-Germanic remnant form, which is extremely unlikely given how far north this is.

I actually found a 19th century Norwegian who was puzzled by this as well. He traced "Ófóti" to a 15th century text, which is too late to be Old Norse.

So, my guess is that this is a 600+ year old misspelling. Someone must've seen "Ófǿti" (which is dative-case) written somewhere and mistakenly copied it as "Ófóti". Likely because they wanted to replace "ǿ" with something less archaic, and ended up using the wrong letter. This would later be carried on by Scandinavians who had already lost their case system, and with it the ability to recognize this error. And then it eventually found its way to Wikipedia articles...

So yeah, I second "Ófótr".

 

[Ölmestollen]

The locations in parts of central Sweden don't make much sense, and the names are often misplaced. Fryksdal in Värmland is in the wrong place, and Färnebo did not yet exist at the time. I have attached a map with a more historically accurate (although still simplified) division of Värmland based on the Hundreds of the 14th and 15th centuries, which differ from later divisions and their names. Note that Nordmark belonged to the province of Dalsland at the time (then just called Dal, as it still is in the local dialect). The raw materials of Värmlandsberg should probably be iron (although mining didn't really start there until the end of the 14th century), and the area around Vänern (especially Näs and Älvahärad) should be farmland, not definitely forests.

Grythyttan didn't really exist at the time, but was a part of Nora bergslag along with Hällefors (although the westernmost parts later belonged to Värmlandsberg). Nora bergslag was also a part of the province Närke at the time, not Västmanland. Idre should also not be a part of Dalarna, but rather of Hedmark in Norway, while Malung should strech further south and include Äppelbo. What is called "Orsa" on the map is actually Ore, while the actual parish of Orsa is a part of Mora, which it definitely should not be. Åmål in Dalsland should be Tösse or Tössbo, as Åmål was only an insignificant parish in Tössbo härad at the time.

There are certainly many other such mistakes, which should be corrected, but these are the ones that I noticed.

 

[PelleSvanslöse]

On the Swedish pops issue:

I did some calculations.



The total population of Finland, including the provinces of Egentliga Finland, Satakunta, Österbotten, Nyland, Karelia, Tavastia, Savonia, Far Karelia, Inre Österbotten, and the Åland islands is 123,670. Of that population, 62,573 pops live in locations that are Swedish-majority and Finnish-minority. An additional 11,630 live in Finnish-majority Swedish-minority locations, as stripes on the map indicate.



Assuming that the aforementioned Swedish-majority locations are on average 67% Swedish and the Swedish-minority locations are 33% Swedish on average, and that the non-striped locations are 0% Swedish, we get a total of 45 672 Swedish pops in Finland. That is almost exactly 37.00% of the total Finnish population, or more than twice that of the 17th century peak. These are just estimation, but it gives a rough picture of what the real number likely is.



In other words, for any resemblence of historical accuracy, the number of Swedish pops shouls be less than half of what they are right now. If the 37% figure is accurate, I’d cut the number by two thirds and distribute that to the relevant local Finnic culture.

The changes I would suggest are:
Remove Swedish majority/minority entirely from Brahestad and Uleåborg (the latter having Swedish majority is bs as the city didn't even exist until centuries later)
The non-costal provinces in Österbotten should be entirely Finnish as well
Björneborg being Swedish majority is likely incorrect, as the Swedes in the cities that were not in the Swedish-speaking area were mostly upper class and as such were far from being majority. Also, the cities during this time period were very small and the surrounding Finnish-speaking countryside would dominate the ethnical landscape of the province - make into Swedish minority instead
(I would like to note that you have placed Ulfsby on the map in the completely wrong location, it actually lies within the Björneborg province)
Nystad the same as for Björneborg
Åbo is a special case as the city was very Swedish culturally and the southern half of the province is traditionally only-Swedish speaking, so Swedish majority is likely correct
The province of Salo is divided between Finnish- and Swedish-speaking areas, though the latter should be in the minority.
Ekenäs, Kyrkslätt and Helsinge are all correct, though Porvoo (which should be renamed to Borgå, the Swedish name - the place is traditionally almost entirely Swedish) should have Swedish majority.
Those are the changes I would suggest as to ethnical boundaries. As to further name changes

1. Storkyro should during this time be named Kyro
2. I have never in my life heard of this place Koppo, rename to Närpes
3. Björneborg might be renamed Ulfsby, as the former was founded in the middle ages just outside the latter to get access to the sea
4. Liljendal on the map does not actually encompass Liljendal in reality and should be renamed

I hope I'm not too late for the party, hope you see these suggestions

 

[Shu'al]

Current Project Ceasar Jämtland.

Proposed adjustments of Jämtland:

Jämtland can be devided in following geographic and cultural regions. Same number of locations as sugested by Paradox but with some adjustments.
1. Undersåker tingslag + Mörsil parish. They speak the Opplänningsmål subdialect and their geographical region is Indalsälven (river) with tributaries to the west of lake Storsjön. This is the path to Tröndelag/Trondheim.
2. Oviken tingslag + Bergs tingslag + Hackås tingslag. They form communities around the southern part of lake Storsjön. They speak sydvästjämtska/Bergsmål subdialekt. This is the path to Härjedalen.
3. Revsunds tingslag, the parishes around lake Revsundssjön. This is the path to river Ljungan and the main path to the east coast and Sweden or to Trondheim from Sweden. They speak Revsundsmål.
4. Ragunda tingslag, the parishes connected to river Indalsälven. This is the second path to the east coast and Sweden. They speak Ragundamål or east jamtlandic. Some people consider their dialekt transisional dialect to the neighbouring counties dialects.
5. Hammerdal tingslag. Along tributarie river Ammerån and river Faxälven (Ström) which goes into Ångermanland. The nothermost parish was settled both from Ström and from Lierne in Norway.
6. Frösön: All the Tingslag and parishes around Storsjön (they speak Framlänningsmål sub dialect) along with Lits tingslag (Litsmål subdialect) along tribituary Hårkan and Offerdal parish (Offerdalsmål subdialect). As far as I know no armies bothered with the northern tingslag and parishes. The battles happened in the center, east, south east, west and south. If you would control Frösön the north would follow.

Currect map by Paradox has the following inaccurancies:
1. Does not follow actual communication paths. The main path to Selånger was through Revsund.
2. Frösön has a direct connection to Ångermanland. It is super odd to be able to reach the center of Jämtland without any buffer region. And also historically inaccurate. Hammerdal (today Strömsund municipality) and Ragunda has always shared boarder.
3. Western Jämtland not represented. After all Baltzar Bäck burned down whole Undersåker tingslag as they, along with Härjedalen, were the most loyal to Norway. (see Baltzarfejden).
4. Southern Jämtland represented twice (Oviken and Berg). Would be more fair to have Revsund (south east) represented instead of Oviken.
5. Unpassible mountains between Lierne and Frostviken even though the western part of the parish was settled by people from Lierne. It should have an opening in the corner.
6. Offerdal represended even though it is the most isolated parish in Jämtland. Allthough a parish with many villages, it is a bit of a dead end. No communication paths goes further to the north west.
7. Having Offerdal as location goes against the policy of naming locations after towns or villages if possible (see quote below). The church village of Offerdal is Ede. There is no village "Offerdal". The parish is named after a river valley.

We consistently try to name locations after town or villages if possible.

Possible suggestion regarding natural resources:
Huså in Undersåker tingslag was the biggest village in Jämtland in late 18th centure due to the copper production there. I don't know if that is worthy of a copper resource node compared to other copper mines in the world (it was for sure overshadowed by Falun) but it did employ 500 people at its peak. Huså was in consideration of becoming the first city in Jämtland but the king decided on Östersund (east of Frösön) in the center of Jämtland.