Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[EvsseH]

Hello, is it too late to chime in with some changes i would wish to see?

Not until they post the feedback review! And even then they are still receptive

 

[TheDungen]

Hello, is it too late to chime in with some changes i would wish to see?

I hope not considering I only posted mine a few days ago and would really like to do a deepdive on Småland too (Especially the RGOs need work there).

 

[Smudderz]

Edit: Before i start, i wanted to get all the sources, but then it was considered spam. I don't know why. Im not using Wiki, i promise. I am using SNL (Which is used in school in Norway as facts)

Hello, i have been following the development of Project Ceasar for some time. I am very excited to read further updates and to play the game, in fact so much so that i want to pitch in changes that i wish could be implemented. I will only talk about Norway, since i don't think i know much about any other nation.

When i first saw the map of norway and its procinves, my mind immediatly went to the current Fylker of Norway. There are some changes from the 2020 Fylker, like Viken and Innlandet being split up into different fylker, and Trøndelag being north and south, lastly Troms og Finmark being Troms and Finmark. This is very nice, though there is a single change in provinces i would make.

My first wish is to split Bergenhus Len into 2 provinces. Either Bergenhus Len and Sogn og Fjordane, or Hordaland and Sogn og Fjordane. I would obvioulsy not mind it being split into 3, but i feel like there would be too few provinces between Sognefylket and Firdafylket.

There are several reasons why i believe splitting Bergenhus Len into 2 provinces would be a good choice, and we will begin with some history. This will be a rather unimportant reason, so you can skip it without missing out on anything of importance. Anyways.

Let us begin in the age of Vikings. During the viking age there were regional judicial bodies called lagting. These covered large spaces of land and there were at least 4 that are known of. These were: Frostatinget, Eidsivatinget, Borgarting and the one i will talk about, Gulating. Gulatinget originates in Gulen (which is not a locaiton on the map, but would be where Nord-Hordaland is), and was used as a judicial body for 3 fylker. Firdafylki (Fjordane), Sognefylki and Hordafylki (Hordaland).

Now i mentioned Fjordane, Sogn and Hordaland because up until the 15th century, Norway would have administrative districts named Sysle. During the first half of the 15th century the Danish would transfer it to the Lensmann system, it is not until this point that Bergenhus Len becomes a Len, and not a very well documented Len either. These would dissolve later into Amt, before it becomes the Fylker Norway has today.

This story lesson wasn't to bad was it? I would be happy to answer any questions. Now for my second point.

Bergenhus Len consists of 12 locations, which is the largest number in Norway for a province, and mabye among all provinces. Even by splitting it in 2 it would have a good amount of locations in each. And i propose to split it into Hordaland and Sogn og Fjordane (Sogn og Fjordane consists of Firdafylki and Sognefylki). In my opinion if they were to be split i would give the following locations to Hordaland; Kvinneherad, Ullensvang, Eidfjord, Voss, Fana and Bergen. The rest i would give to Sogn og Fjordane, namely; Nord-Hordaland, Aurland, Sogndal, Sunnfjord and Nordfjord.

Why would you give Hordaland 7 locations and Sogn og Fjordane 5? Well here are my reasons:
Hordaland is historically more significant campared to Sogn of Fjordane, as it contains Bergen. It would also keep the "borders" of Hordaland and Sogn og Fjordane.
Another reason is that i believe there should be one more location created in what would be Sogn og Fjordane. This place would be called Hyllestad (Oh no, another history lesson).

Hyllestad, though a small place now, was an imporant place up until the 17th century, being one of Norways largest exporters of Millstones. You know, the thing used to grind corn into wheat. There is still a park in Hyllestad called Kvernsteinparken, which is a very nice place, and i recommend visiting it if you are nearby at any time in your life. I can go into greater detail if someone wishes, but i dont want to write too much.

The remaining changes i wish could be made are minor ones. The first one being Sogndal. The whole reason why i write this is because i saw Sogndal. I know this isnt such a big deal, but it should be called Sogn. Sogndal might be the larges town in that area currently, but thats it. It is only a town. There are other towns in that area. some of them even has one of the Fjords arms named the same as it, like Årdal (Årdalsfjorden), Lærdal (Lærdalsfjorden) and Lustafjorden with Luster. The thing is, this whole area is called Sogn.

TLDR;

These are the changes i wish to see:

1. Bergenhus Len becomes Sogn og Fjordane and Hordaland
2. Sogndal becomes Sogn
3. Nord-Hordaland becomes Gulen
4. Create a new location called Hyllestad

PS: I wish to also see the Province of Telemark with Notodden (The biggest stave church in the 14th century). I also wish to see the 10 largest islands in Norway as their own, but it also works to combine multiple into 1, as done with Hinnøya (nr.1) and Langøya (nr.3), though i see some "bugs" there, mabye you could check them out?

Sources are in a txt file, because it is spam??? otherwise...

 

[Bergenboy]

The rest i would give to Sogn og Fjordane, namely; Nord-Hordaland

Just not historical at all, and would make zero sense. Why would Askøy, Sotra and Alver be a part of Sogn? They are literally at the core of Hordaland and one of the 7 mountains of Bergen is in Askøy.

One could split up Hordaland and Sogn og Fjordane, but why bother. For much of history and especially during EU5 timeframe they have been categorized together as Bergenhus «syssel, len or amt».

 

[kimuyama]

View attachment 1170597
Why is Skåne divided into two counties and why is half of it called Göinge when Göinge is a smaller area than depicted?

Actual Göringe:
View attachment 1170602

The division is based on the old Malmöhus län and Kristianstad län (going by Wikipedia it was created by the Danes in 1614 and then was a Swedish county from 1658 to 1997). I guess they went with Göinge for name as Kristianstad wasn't founded in 1337. Maybe Skåne in it's Landskap-form got too many locations and pdx split it up?

 

[Smudderz]

Just not historical at all, and would make zero sense. Why would Askøy, Sotra and Alver be a part of Sogn? They are literally at the core of Hordaland and one of the 7 mountains of Bergen is in Askøy.

One could split up Hordaland and Sogn og Fjordane, but why bother. For much of history and especially during EU5 timeframe they have been categorized together as Bergenhus «syssel, len or amt».

Though i see your point. the 'not historical' would be wrong either way. Norway is not split into 4, be it len or amt. Bergenhus Len as far as i understand it stretched as far as Stavanger to Sunnmøre. I dont think we should have 20+ locations in a single province. That is why i had my second point. There are 12 locations in Bergenhus Len already, it does not follow the historical borders, Norway is not yet under Danish rule.

Why then should it still be Bergenhus Len and not a newer, but also older border with Sogn of Fjordane and Hordaland? (Again Sogn og Fjordane is a combination of two Syssels, being Sognefylki and Firdafylki (Fjordane)).

 

[Tantara]

1) The Tinto map undervalues agriculture in Trøndelag. Melanger should be both continental and hardy grains (barley)
- Trøndelag is a notable Norwegian agricultural area, with arguably some of its best land, but much of it is labeled as "Arctic" climate here
- Trøndelag produces more than a quarter of Norwegian barley--the country's most consumed grain--which is not far behind Østlandet/the Oslo area
- Many areas east of Trondheim still have significant agricultural coverage.

source: not an agriculture-specific study but identifies Norway's primary agricultural areas

2) Project Caesar should properly categorize subpolar oceanic Koppen type (Cfc) under continental and not as Arctic(ET)/Subarctic (Dfc), but it might swap "grassland" and "hill" terrain types for "mountain" to reduce unhistorical population growth for gameplay purposes
- Most of coastal Norway is categorized as "Arctic" climate on the Tinto map, but in reality, most of the coastal areas are quite mild. Arctic climate lumps this area in with places like the White Sea. This region is much closer to northern England in climate than it is northern Russia.
- Subpolar oceanic is part of the "continental" climate grouping under the Koppen system and is more accurate in this case
- The primary growth limitation to these areas is not the climate itself--rather, it is the lack of arable land. To account for this, I'd make all of coastal Norway north of Trondheim "mountain" terrain type and categorize coastal areas as coastal.
- Even if the relatively low elevation might qualify the area as "hill" in other parts of the map, "mountain" terrain better captures the sharp slope of the fjords, with generally only the low-lying areas close to the water being generally habitable.
- For gameplay purposes, the region should be continental mountains and probably not Arctic grasslands/hills (except maybe parts of inland Trondelag)

3) The Namsdal area in Trøndelag (also Hardanger/Ullensvang and Sogndal in Vestlandet) should be oceanic anyways
- Higher res Koppen maps lists them as straight-up oceanic, not subpolar oceanic

 

[Shu'al]

The division is based on the old Malmöhus län and Kristianstad län (going by Wikipedia it was created by the Danes in 1614 and then was a Swedish county from 1658 to 1997). I guess they went with Göinge for name as Kristianstad wasn't founded in 1337. Maybe Skåne in it's Landskap-form got too many locations and pdx split it up?

How is 6 locations too much? For comparation: Västergötland (landskap) has 11 locations and was split between 3 län historically (Skaraborgs län and Älvsborgs län) but is united in game.

 

[kimuyama]

How is 6 locations too much? For comparation: Västergötland (landskap) has 11 locations and was split between 3 län historically (Skaraborgs län and Älvsborgs län) but is united in game.

Yeah, no idea why they forsook the landskap basis for Skåne in particular.

Edit: And honestly, looking at the distribution of locations vs. provinces it might be that västergötland and the småland-provinces are too large and need to be split further?

 

[BeyondExpectation]

Where do you high res climate maps like this?

 

[Shu'al]

Some thought on Skåne, Blekinge, Halland and Bornholm.


Blekinge
1. Is Kungsbacka important enough to be a location separate from Varberg? It was part of Varberg slottslän. It is not certein Kungsbacka existed in 1337. First mention is 1366. I'm not against Kungsbacka but would like to know the thoughts behind it.
2-3. The border between Varberg and Halmstad seem wrong. Compare to image below. Faurås belonged to Varberg len.

Source: https://befolkning.hallandsslaktforskare.se/halland_under_dansktiden/

4. Laholm is perfect.

Skåne
5. Helsingborgs län grew over time and then shrunk as other cities grew. I think its borders should be the final ones fefore Skåne became Swedish, depiced in pink. Source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingborgs_län Åsbo should then be removed as location.
6. Vä should be a province and Osby should be removed. Vä was an important city in Skåne but was burned down in 1492. It regrew as Kristianstad from 1614 and Osby belonged to Kristianstad len. In 1337 it was not know that Vä would be buned down. In an alt history context Vä should get more influence unless its razed here as well.
7. Gladsax should be renamed Simrishamn. Locations should be named after cities if possible, not castles.
8. Ystad should be added as a location. This area was owned by the church (Project Caesar: Clergy Estate). Ystad was an important enuogh city. See image below:

9. This is the correct borders of old Malmöhus len (earlier Falsterbo len)
10. I think the rest of Skåne should be added to Lund domain.

Blekinge
11. Sölvesborg acctualy has Skåne culture and should not belong to Blekinge. I don't understand why Paradox goes for medieval borders of Östergötland but mordern borders for other counties. See map below:

12. Ronneby is good.
13. Bräkne shoud be renamed Lyckå. Today Lyckå is named Lyckby and is part of Karlskrona. Lyckå had city rights in 1337.

Bornholm
14. Hammershus should be renamed Rönne. Locations should be named after cities and not castles if possible. It had city rights in 1337. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rønne

 

[Shu'al]

Is medieval Blekinge (withoud Villands and Listers härader) big enough to be a province and not a part of Skåne? While Öland, Medelpad and Härjedalen are a part of Östra Småland, Helsingland and Jämtland respectivly.
Perhaps Skåne and Blekinge should be treated as one province as haft of Blekinge was ruled from Skåne (Sölvesborg).

 

[TheDungen]

1) The Tinto map undervalues agriculture in Trøndelag. Melanger should be both continental and hardy grains (barley)
- Trøndelag is a notable Norwegian agricultural area, with arguably some of its best land, but much of it is labeled as "Arctic" climate here
- Trøndelag produces more than a quarter of Norwegian barley--the country's most consumed grain--which is not far behind Østlandet/the Oslo area
- Many areas east of Trondheim still have significant agricultural coverage.

source: not an agriculture-specific study but identifies Norway's primary agricultural areas

2) Project Caesar should properly categorize subpolar oceanic Koppen type (Cfc) under continental and not as Arctic(ET)/Subarctic (Dfc), but it might swap "grassland" and "hill" terrain types for "mountain" to reduce unhistorical population growth for gameplay purposes
- Most of coastal Norway is categorized as "Arctic" climate on the Tinto map, but in reality, most of the coastal areas are quite mild. Arctic climate lumps this area in with places like the White Sea. This region is much closer to northern England in climate than it is northern Russia.
- Subpolar oceanic is part of the "continental" climate grouping under the Koppen system and is more accurate in this case
- The primary growth limitation to these areas is not the climate itself--rather, it is the lack of arable land. To account for this, I'd make all of coastal Norway north of Trondheim "mountain" terrain type and categorize coastal areas as coastal.
- Even if the relatively low elevation might qualify the area as "hill" in other parts of the map, "mountain" terrain better captures the sharp slope of the fjords, with generally only the low-lying areas close to the water being generally habitable.
- For gameplay purposes, the region should be continental mountains and probably not Arctic grasslands/hills (except maybe parts of inland Trondelag)

3) The Namsdal area in Trøndelag (also Hardanger/Ullensvang and Sogndal in Vestlandet) should be oceanic anyways
- Higher res Koppen maps lists them as straight-up oceanic, not subpolar oceanic

Yeah they totally need more climate types. Coastal scandinavia havign the same climate type as the interior of Siberia, Riga has the same climate as München, which also has the same climate as Reykjavik. And also as the high atlas mountains.

Is medieval Blekinge (withoud Villands and Listers härader) big enough to be a province and not a part of Skåne? While Öland, Medelpad and Härjedalen are a part of Östra Småland, Helsingland and Jämtland respectivly.
Perhaps Skåne and Blekinge should be treated as one province as haft of Blekinge was ruled from Skåne (Sölvesborg).

They may be geogrpahically small places but they are relatively populous compared to elsewhere in Scandinavia. And Blekinge ruled from Sölvesborg is nonsense, Karlskrona was the third city of Sweden, second only to Riga and Stockholm (in that order). There's speculation that the intention was to move the capital there for a while before they ran out of money. Sölvesborg on the other hand ceased to exist in the mid 17th century (as the popuylation there was moved to Kristianstad) and was only rebuilt in the 19th century.

 

[Shu'al]

They may be geogrpahically small places but they are relatively populous compared to elsewhere in Scandinavia. And Blekinge ruled from Sölvesborg is nonsense, Karlskrona was the third city of Sweden, second only to Riga and Stockholm (in that order). There's speculation that the intention was to move the capital there for a while before they ran out of money. Sölvesborg on the other hand ceased to exist in the mid 17th century (as the popuylation there was moved to Kristianstad) and was only rebuilt in the 19th century.

I said "half of Blekinge" (source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sölvesborgs_län ). But I agree with you. Blekinge should be a province on its own with its medieval borders without Villands and Listers härader which belongs to Skåne. But so should Härjedalen, Medelpad and Öland, even if they only have 1-2 locations. Paradox have 1-location-provinces in other regions so why not on Scandinavia?

 

[Linbot#6018]

Yeah, no idea why they forsook the landskap basis for Skåne in particular.

Edit: And honestly, looking at the distribution of locations vs. provinces it might be that västergötland and the småland-provinces are too large and need to be split further?

I would definitely prefer to err on the side of keeping historical divisions intact. There are plenty of provinces in the game that are three locations, plenty that are six locations, and plenty that are more than that. Why can't we just have Skåne in the game?

 

[esbenmf]

They may be geogrpahically small places but they are relatively populous compared to elsewhere in Scandinavia. And Blekinge ruled from Sölvesborg is nonsense, Karlskrona was the third city of Sweden, second only to Riga and Stockholm (in that order). There's speculation that the intention was to move the capital there for a while before they ran out of money. Sölvesborg on the other hand ceased to exist in the mid 17th century (as the popuylation there was moved to Kristianstad) and was only rebuilt in the 19th cecentury.

Karlskrona was founded only in 1679, and was until then a farm and a grazing meadow. Not a good choice for central city in 1337. But the location should have excellent natural harbour qualities. Lyckå is the better choice here.

 

[Slime99]

Add Ii/Ijo location, it was first mentioned in 1340 and was the most significant settlement of the area before Oulu/Uleåborg.

 

[TheDungen]

Karlskrona was founded only in 1679, and was until then a farm and a grazing meadow. Not a good choice for central city in 1337. But the location should have excellent natural harbour qualities. Lyckå is the better choice here.

I am aware, I was a tour guide for the national maritime museum in Karlskrona (for context for those not in the know that's the museum that tells the founding of the city becuase it was foudned as a naval base, it's also one Sweden's five largest museums, in visitors, outside of Stockholm) for a decade or so.

My point was just permanently anchoring the capital to the location Sölvesborg would be a mistake.

I said "half of Blekinge" (source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sölvesborgs_län ). But I agree with you. Blekinge should be a province on its own with its medieval borders without Villands and Listers härader which belongs to Skåne. But so should Härjedalen, Medelpad and Öland, even if they only have 1-2 locations. Paradox have 1-location-provinces in other regions so why not on Scandinavia?

Sölvesborgs län may have covered half of Blekinge was but Sölvesborgs Län was it's own Län not part of Skåne.
Öland was part of Kalmar Län until 1819, only it's own Län until 1826 then part of Kalmar Län to this day. Don't know anything about Härjedalen or Medelpad.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

how the game will represent the tribute taken from the Sami by the Swedes,Norwegians and Novgorod?

 

[Ettan]

Currently the Vadstena location in Östergötland doesn't include Vadstena, I propse making this change to the map so vadstena is included in it's location (with red being the current borders and yellow being the redrawn one):

The Alvastra location should also be changed to "Skänninge", which was the most important town in the area until the reformation. By then Vadstena outgrew Skänninge in size and importance, and a lot of the religious buildings in Skänninge were demolished for building materials to Vadstena castle.
For reference, Alvastra was a monastery, Skänninge had 2 monasteries and several churches.

The sources are in Swedish, but I assume someone on the team can read Swedish.

Information sign in Skänninge

Skänninge had the oldest hospital in Sweden, which I hope can be icluded as a building in the game.

Information sign at the ruined hospital in Skänninge

I have images of more signs from specific ruins in Skänninge if you want, but I don't want to clutter the post more than necessary.