Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Shu'al]

Current map:

I suggest replacing Alvastra (monestary rather than city) with Finspång (economic region) and correcting the borders of Vadstena. Actual Vadstena is not in current Vadstena borders.

Map based on slottslän (note:borders of härader not static over time):

Östergötland in the 1300s was 3 län: Ringstaholms län (yellow and orange), Hofs län (blue) and Stegeborgs län (green and pink). Note that borders of härader has changed slightly over time and Finspånga läns härad is a younger härad. White area (northern Östkinds härad) belonged to Södermanland like in current Paradox map.

1. Vadstena: Blue area is Hofs län with Vadstena and Skänninge as as biggest cities. Later Vadstena slottslän was formed in this region.

2. Linköping: Green area is Linköpings län which was broken out of a greater Stegeborgs län.

3. Söderköping: Pink area is what's left of Stegeborgs län after the breakout of Linköpings län.

4. Norrköping. Yellow area is Ringstaholms län withoud Finspånga läns härad economic region. .

5. Finspång Orange area belonged to Ringstaholms län (yellow). First mention of Finspång was 1360. Northern Östergötland was sparsely populated. Became a mining region in the 16th century. Should have Iron as resource. They produced the cannons of Sweden.

 

[Shu'al]

Location Öland should be renamed Köping (or maybe Köpingsvik or Borgholm) and be a one-location-province (named Öland) like Madeira.
Öland was not part of Småland before 17th century. It had their own law based on Östgötalagen, Ölands lagsaga, until 1631 when they got Småland law ( Source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ölands_lagsaga ) and the whole island wasn't part of Kalmar län until 1634.

Öland was divided into Norra mot and Södra mot, and still has two municipalities and two subdialects, so a 2-location-province is also an alternative:

 

[TheDungen]

Location Öland should be renamed Köping (or maybe Köpingsvik or Borgholm) and be a one-location-province (named Öland) like Madeira.
Öland was not part of Småland before 17th century. It had their own law based on Östgötalagen, Ölands lagsaga, until 1631 when they got Småland law ( Source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ölands_lagsaga ) and the whole island wasn't part of Kalmar län until 1634.

It wasn't part of Småland no but it was part of Kalmar Län.

 

[Shu'al]

It wasn't part of Småland no but it was part of Kalmar Län.

It was its own slottslän between 1315 and 1525.

<<At the end of the 13th century, Öland became a castle county, but subordinate to Kalmar castle county. From 1315 and Duke Valdemar, Borgholm forms its own county. Borgholm's castle county was one of the smallest in the country. The Öningar paid taxes to the bailiff at Borgholm Castle and they could also do the day's work there.

In 1525, Öland disappears as a separate county when Borgholm Castle is burned down. The island then forms again in Kalmar castle county.>> Source: Kalmar länsmuseum, http://medeltiden.kalmarlansmuseum....r-lan/oland-under-medeltiden/borgholms-slott/

 

[Chieron]

Location Öland should be renamed Köping (or maybe Köpingsvik or Borgholm) and be a one-location-province (named Öland) like Madeira.
Öland was not part of Småland before 17th century. It had their own law based on Östgötalagen, Ölands lagsaga, until 1631 when they got Småland law ( Source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ölands_lagsaga ) and the whole island wasn't part of Kalmar län until 1634.

Let's not create tiny provinces when there is no need. Unless the area is extremly isolated like Madeira, I doubt that such provinces are justified. They most likely are not helpful gameplay-wise either. That said, the exact mechanics about provinces are not known yet..

 

[Fulmen]

Why are the Finns balkanised to up to seven different cultures* but the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes are monolithic (with the exception of Gotland)? Where are the Sveas and Goths, the Trønderers, Bergeners, Hålogalanders, Jutlanders and others? I don't think Finnish regional identities were really any stronger than those found in Scandinavia, perhaps even the opposite, particularly with regards to Norway. Unlike with the many German subcultures in the game, none of the Finnish ones had their own states during the game's timeframe. Furthermore, consistency dictates that the Novgorodians, Moscovites, English etc. should then also be balkanised into regional cultures.

*The seven being, and what they are/were IRL:

-Tavastians. One of the two Finnish subcultures from which the others branch off.

-Finns (Finns proper). An offshoot of Tavastians.

-Kvens. Semi-mythical. We don't actually even know where the "Kvenland" of Norse sagas was located, but most people tend to put it wrapped around the Gulf of Bothnia. We know there were Finns who lived up there and in modern-day Sweden during Viking times. They were probably another offshoot of Tavastians.

-Karelians. The other of the two Finnish subcultures from which the others branch off. When Sweden and Novgorod split the Finnish lands between themselves in the late 13th century, half the Karelians ended up on the Swedish side of the border, and half on the Novgorodian side, becoming Catholic, later Lutheran, and Orthodox respectively. The latter expanded into Olonets and White Karelia, which together form East Karelia, during the 14th-17th centuries or so.

-Savonians. An offshoot of Karelians with some Tavastian influence.

-Ingrians. Presumably this is referring to Izhorans, who were Orthodox Karelians who lived in Ingria. Usually "Ingrian" refers to Ingrian Finns, descendants of Lutheran Karelians and Savonians who moved to the area in the 17th century from the Karelian Isthmus and Savonia respectively. There's really no reason to represent the Izhorans as separate from the Karelians. Even in the 20th century the Izhorans themselves just considered themselves Karelians.

-Bjarmians. Semi-mythical. Like with the Kvens and Kvenland, we don't actually know for certain where the "Bjarmland" of Norse sagas was located, but most people tend to put it around the Northern Dvina basin, near Archangel in the area also known as Far Karelia, east of East Karelia (not to be confused with the latter, which has also been called "Far Karelia", particularly in older Finnish sources). Before Pomors (Russian colonists) settled the Northern Dvina basin in the 16th and 17th centuries, the area was inhabited by "Chudes", which is what the Russians called the Finns, specifically "Chudes on the other side of the journey", meaning Chudes who live far away. As late as the 20th century the Russians referred to the Russian-speaking populations of Far and East Karelia as "Russified Chudes". Bjarmians were probably Karelians, though it appears Far Karelia was also inhabited at least for some time partly by the Sami.

Other than that, there's a number of issues with the cultural map. Novgorodians and Pomors are far too up north, Vepsians are too small and misplaced, Bjarmian lands should probably be split between the Karelians and the Sami, White Karelia and parts of Olonets Karelia should not be impassable, there's way too many Swedes in Finland, there's anachronisms from Finland's post-WW2 borders from 1947 (!) in the province borders (as is the case in most PDX titles), etc., but I and others have covered these issues in other posts in more detail.

 

[David23232222]

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

View attachment 1165160
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View attachment 1165164
While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
View attachment 1165169
We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
View attachment 1165173
It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
View attachment 1165174
There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
View attachment 1165176
Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
View attachment 1165177
Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
View attachment 1165180
It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
View attachment 1165181
Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
View attachment 1165182


Not many people live up in the north..

Spoiler: Location Pops

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I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.


Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…

in the 1300s im fairly certian the modern swedish borders exeeded a million and then it was halved during the black death. why is it so low pre black death?

 

[honkajoki]

in the 1300s im fairly certian the modern swedish borders exeeded a million and then it was halved during the black death. why is it so low pre black death?

Do I read correctly that black death killed half the population in Sweden? Really?

Apparently most of Finland escaped it.

 

[emilgunder]

Hi, I understand that it is a video game and that the projections and scale impact decisions. Overall, things seem very good.

This is one of the older threads, so I will make this short and simple based on my background as a Norwegian geographer and local knowledge of the area. I also recommend looking at Aslak Bolts jordebok (ca.1430) on Trøndelag and Nordmøre (Fosen) to improve locations in that region.

Firstly, I found a map with changes to the wastelands in another Tinto talk and georeferenced it. Changes seem reasonable to me on close inspection. However, I would argue to look into adding Lom and Sjåk at least partly, which are sourced to have many farms and at least 500 people. There is also a stave church in Lom from the 12th century, and St.Olav described the villages of Lom and Sjåk as nice-looking, so it would be a shame if he had to burn them down. It can also be argued that it should be a passable route from here to the west, as it was a pilgrim route, and the residents of these villages were tasked with maintaining roads and bridges to the west. However, I do like the impact of impassable/wastelands on gameplay, so if the residents in these villages are moved to nearby Otta, they might need a name more representative of the period, as others have mentioned. Or perhaps, have a little "dent" in towards these villages. Then i would also recommend trying to implement gudbrandsdalen as a location as it is such an iconic and well known valleys and areas in Norway for a very long time. Just gotta have it there imo.

Sjåk population.

Then, I have some comments regarding sør-trøndelag where I suggest renaming støren to gauldal or gauldalen, and Ørland to Fosen, although the location covers a larger area. As for Orkdal, it is funny that the current Orkdal location does not cover the river Orkla, the town Orkanger and any of the traditional Orkdal area, as Skaun takes this. Then I am glad that Skaun is included, as a region rich in viking and medieval history, tied together with melhus. I could go further into detail, and may do if there are further threads and discussions about the matter. But I have multiple possible suggestions..


A) Giving Orkdal (2) its territory, then the creation of Hitra or Hemne (Hevn) as a new location (1.) Then a smaller Skaun (3), which still includes essential sites from the era and then perhaps giving more of Gaula region near Melhus to Gauldal (4). This makes more sense but yes, skaun becomes rather small in this solution.

B) Another option is to give what is Melhus from Nidaros to Skaun, and then create a larger Orkdal and in purple a Hevn (Hemne modern day) / Hitra location.

My main issue with sør trøndelag is that Orkdal makes no sense. However, I would like to keep Skaun and perhaps merge it with Melhus due to both site's importance and shared history.

Geology and medieval era quarries. White squares are medieval era stone buildings. So here we do see Skaun with the famous Huseby / Husaby where Einar Tambarskjelve lived.

This is very rough feedback, and I keep it short as I suspect that it might not even be noticed. I know some changes have been made to Norway, and these might be covered in a review. I plan to make better feedback for then.

Finally as for resources , Trondheim exported some fish, wood and copper especially more after 1500. South and eastern Norway lots of wood and some iron.. Bergen lots of fish! So resources looks good, although some iron could be added to hedmark area where 130 000 tonnes of iron was produced from 1100 and 1250.
per Universitetet i Oslo , 2013.

Im late to the party, so I made up this post quite quickly from previous knowledge, I can provide further literature and maps. Although I do think overdetailing single areas of the world spanning game, there are still some few minor things that IMO should be changed

 

[emilgunder]

Follow up on my last posts with some additions.

Below, we see Sør Trøndelag; during georeferencing, there is some stretching to make it fit best. My main point is that it is, in my opinion, not logical to use Orkdal and Skaun as they are currently seen. The feedback has significance, in my opinion, due to the combined size of these two locations in the region, which is important for the era and previously. Historically, Orkdal was used for the area of Skaun and Oppdal in-game. It is possible that the devs saw newer maps from the merging of municipalities where some of the area to the north was included in the new municipality Orkland; however, historically, this isn't the case, and the current Orkdal location has no land in the historical Orkdal region, even the farm/town of Gelmin / Gjølme isn't in the Orkdal location. Depending on maps and sources, it is the same as the settlement/farm marked in Yellow 1. Orkdal / Fannrem or Gryting (variation between maps and sources).


Map of the current locations

Solution 1: The simplest solution would be to keep current locations, rename Orkdal to Hemne or Hitra, and Skaun to Orkdal. However, Skaun is a small but historically rich location, which I will return to. As a local geographer who also took Norwegian history in my degree, with my heritage being from Gauldal and Jamtland, I am happy that Skaun is included. Although the name Skaun might not have been commonly used, multiple farms and buildings are known from the era, as well as historical persons. The area also borders Melhus, with both municipalities having rich Viking and medieval history, sometimes claiming the same ones.

Solution 2: As seen below, it is also simple to divide the Skaun into two locations, but is it too small? It seems to me that this region in-game already has rather large locations. I suggest it can be further adjusted by adding some Oppdal to Orkdal and Melhus to Skaun so that they are big enough. In that regard, there are also now multiple naming options for Skaun, Including Melhus as Gimsar / Gimse.

Now, below, we are looking at medieval farms and archaeological finds in the area marked purple "Skaun" on the map above. Skaun works as a good umbrella name for all these, if the game was set earlier then perhaps Husby/Husaby would have been a good name choice. As this was the farm mentioned from Snorri's Kings' Sagas, that on the farm Husaby lived the strongest man and the best archer in Norway, according to Snorri Sturlason, namely Einar Tambarskjelve. He was also the man behind the famous words, "Too weak, too weak is the king's bow." Einar Tambarskjelve was a powerful man and politician, who, according to the sagas, played an important role in the sanctification of Olaf Haraldsson in 1031, and the reinstatement of Magnus the Good as the Norwegian ruler in 1035.

Then compare with 1521-1621, when the Black Death plague was noticeable through the "ødegaarder", abandoned farms.

Vigg / Viggja and Børsa (Birgsi) located at at the coast/fjord have multiple boulder stones on the fjord coast. The four stones in Børsa stood at the shore with unknown purpose. There is also a stone in Viggja, in memory of the Battle of Vigg in the year 1095, where Sigurd Ullstreng Stallare, who founded Nidarholm Monastery (Munkholmen in the Trondheim Fjord) around the year 1105, also participated. Thirty men from the Viggja clan Rut, who, according to Snorri Sturlason, fell in the Battle of Stiklestad in 1030, are also mentioned on the monument. The small location is, as mentioned, rich in history and, therefore, perhaps deserving of its location. Which might even have an event, easter egg, on map figure or similar regarding the Husaby farm, the boulder stones or the legendary archer. Potentially also for flavour mods. Regardless, the current Orkal is so out of place that I believe it should be addressed, I think that not just due to this region's importance for Norway's game start date but also at start date and later dates, let's not forget that for a short time in the 1600s our bigger brother the Swedes held the Trondhejms len region So again, summarized, I believe these things should be considered and addressed.

- The current Orkdal should be renamed. My suggestions are Hitra or Hemne (Hevn). This makes more sense, as this coastal region and fjords were more connected to "nordmøre" Kristiansand than Orkdal historically and culturally, as "Fosen" historically was the area from Hemne to Osen (Ørland in-game), including the islands of Hitra and Frøya. It would, therefore, be more logical and accurate to include most of the locations area with Fosna or Ørland (Fosen) than Orkdal.

- Orkdal should still be included but in its actual historical area along the Orkla River and valley. This makes including Skaun challenging, which, in the worst case, might disappear from the game as a location. However, I believe the suggested changes in solution 2 are the most optimal and realistic.

- Støren, could be renamed to Gauldal / Gauldalen/ Gauldøla. Although it was a fylke that covered a larger area, I believe it fits better than Støren, which I think is used mainly in more recent times from a farm in the area. It may be argued that the location name comes from Staurin in old Norse from the promontory in the area, so regarding this, it's more "open."

 

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Why are the Finns balkanised to up to seven different cultures* but the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes are monolithic (with the exception of Gotland)? Where are the Sveas and Goths, the Trønderers, Bergeners, Hålogalanders, Jutlanders and others? I don't think Finnish regional identities were really any stronger than those found in Scandinavia, perhaps even the opposite, particularly with regards to Norway. Unlike with the many German subcultures in the game, none of the Finnish ones had their own states during the game's timeframe. Furthermore, consistency dictates that the Novgorodians, Moscovites, English etc. should then also be balkanised into regional cultures.

I certainly would not mind seeing more regional cultures in the rest of the north! Even today, there are Norwegian dialects that are almost mutually unintelligible unless you're used to them. Words, grammar, tone/pitch accent, stress can all be different from region to region.

A typical person in eastern Norway will be more aligned with the stereotypical image of Norwegians as "timid" or "cold," while people from for example Bergen, are typically associated with not quite following the same form of politeness. (That politeness boiling down to: Never do anything that could potentially disturb or bother someone else.) Southerners are christian, while northerners swear like sailors and eat dried fish as snacks like we would potato chips.

These are obviously stereotypes, but they are based on reality and align decently with my own very limited experience. Considering how these differences present themselves even today, I think it would be reasonable to assume that, 600 years ago, they would be far more pronounced. Personally, if they give us the consistency you're asking for, I would want them to go for the "everything is more fractured" option.

 

[Tantara]

I certainly would not mind seeing more regional cultures in the rest of the north! Even today, there are Norwegian dialects that are almost mutually unintelligible unless you're used to them. Words, grammar, tone/pitch accent, stress can all be different from region to region.

A typical person in eastern Norway will be more aligned with the stereotypical image of Norwegians as "timid" or "cold," while people from for example Bergen, are typically associated with not quite following the same form of politeness. (That politeness boiling down to: Never do anything that could potentially disturb or bother someone else.) Southerners are christian, while northerners swear like sailors and eat dried fish as snacks like we would potato chips.

These are obviously stereotypes, but they are based on reality and align decently with my own very limited experience. Considering how these differences present themselves even today, I think it would be reasonable to assume that, 600 years ago, they would be far more pronounced. Personally, if they give us the consistency you're asking for, I would want them to go for the "everything is more fractured" option.

I agree that there are cultural differences depending on region, but I disagree with splitting them into different cultures in 1337.
Norwegians had a shared history as a singular polity and distinct national identity (e.g. St Olav, Harald Hardrade, etc.), whereas the Finnic peoples had not really been united in a similar manner.

The language differences between regions are notable today, but I don't know if they resemble the status quo in 1337 either. Today's language differences are driven in part by "norwegianization" processes after independence, where local dialects homogenized (which created larger regional distinctions). Nynorsk/Bokmål effectively came out of attempts to find a "local" replacement to Danish as the country's national administrative language

I personally really doubt that in the early modern period, people from Bergen or Nidaros felt themselves to be of different cultures, particularly when traders from those areas associated so closely with Norway as a polity

 

[Fulmen]

I agree that there are cultural differences depending on region, but I disagree with splitting them into different cultures in 1337.
Norwegians had a shared history as a singular polity and distinct national identity (e.g. St Olav, Harald Hardrade, etc.), whereas the Finnic peoples had not really been united in a similar manner.

The language differences between regions are notable today, but I don't know if they resemble the status quo in 1337 either. Today's language differences are driven in part by "norwegianization" processes after independence, where local dialects homogenized (which created larger regional distinctions). Nynorsk/Bokmål effectively came out of attempts to find a "local" replacement to Danish as the country's national administrative language

I personally really doubt that in the early modern period, people from Bergen or Nidaros felt themselves to be of different cultures, particularly when traders from those areas associated so closely with Norway as a polity

It does not make sense to split the Finns the way the game currently has them split. I suspect the reason for the balkanisation is the realisation that Karelians existed on both sides of the border, both as Catholic (later Lutheran) and Orthodox Christians (and as Finnish pagans in 1337), not as purely Orthodox Christians on Novgorod's side of the border like they were portrayed in EU4, at which point the devs just decided to add the other Finnish "tribes" as well, though they left out the Bothnians. There's arguably more reason to split the Sami up, but they're just as monolithic as the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes. It's nothing short of arbitrary.

EDIT: On a related note:

Norway:


Sweden:


Denmark:

 

[Mahatma Gandhi]

I agree that there are cultural differences depending on region, but I disagree with splitting them into different cultures in 1337.
Norwegians had a shared history as a singular polity and distinct national identity (e.g. St Olav, Harald Hardrade, etc.), whereas the Finnic peoples had not really been united in a similar manner.

The language differences between regions are notable today, but I don't know if they resemble the status quo in 1337 either. Today's language differences are driven in part by "norwegianization" processes after independence, where local dialects homogenized (which created larger regional distinctions). Nynorsk/Bokmål effectively came out of attempts to find a "local" replacement to Danish as the country's national administrative language

I personally really doubt that in the early modern period, people from Bergen or Nidaros felt themselves to be of different cultures, particularly when traders from those areas associated so closely with Norway as a polity

I was adding to the suggestion partially in light of how they split up polish and ruthenian cultures into regional variants in the latest tinto maps feedback. You are probably right that the regional variants have become more monolithic after the norwegianization processes. This article from SNL explains how the dialects and their regional groupings became more distinct in the late norse era, though

I'd be interested in learning about how the black death and subsequent end of norse affected them. The article for middle norwegian just says that during the late middle ages, they pretty much evolved into the forms they had in the 1800s. I don't have the energy to dig deeper than SNL tonight xD

 

[Tantara]

It does not make sense to split the Finns the way the game currently has them split. I suspect the reason for the balkanisation is the realisation that Karelians existed on both sides of the border, both as Catholic (later Lutheran) and Orthodox Christians (and as Finnish pagans in 1337), not as purely Orthodox Christians on Novgorod's side of the border like they were portrayed in EU4, at which point the devs just decided to add the other Finnish "tribes" as well, though they left out the Bothnians. There's arguably more reason to split the Sami up, but they're just as monolithic as the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes. It's nothing short of arbitrary.

EDIT: On a related note:

Norway:
View attachment 1183270

Sweden:
View attachment 1183273View attachment 1183271

Denmark:
View attachment 1183274

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not defending PC’s current formulation of Finnish culture, which I know little about. I think you’re probably right that it was for gameplay purposes. I also seem to remember the devs hinting at some sort of factor or event or mechanic that would lead to a unified Finland? Maybe a culture event maybe?
We might have to wait til the future TT on culture/assimilation/language for more information there, but I was also surprised at Finland’s culture layout.


It would be cool to play as my regional culture in Norway, but I also don’t think it accurate or necessary in PC. I still believe that peoples in norway would have understood themselves to be part of the same society/kingdom, as tons of medieval sources could attest. Though there were of course minor regional differences that emerged as Norwegian evolved out of Norse, I’m not sure the distinctions today (after almost 800 years, danish influence, and norwegianization) would be accurately imposed retroactively to justify splitting the country into regional cultures in 1337. If Norway managed to maintain its own state and local elites after the Black Death, it would have had hundreds of additional years to linguistically develop under unitarian authorities. State anuthoritied and national churches played a huge role in linguistic and cultural formation through the PC time period. For gameplay reasons too, subdividing norways small population into even smaller local dialects could effectively introduce artificial “nerfs” to Norway relative to Sweden and Denmark. I’m guessing subdividing cultures may also have gameplay implications for Copenhagen’s control/potential shared independence sentiment under Denmark

 

[Pigpower]

The raw material for the northern province of Gotland (Slite) should not be fish. Even though fishing was important on northern Gotland, it was more prominent in the south I believe. Instead Slite should be producing STONE. Gotlandic stone and limestone was highly sought after in medieval times, and was one of the reasons why the Hanseatic league had an interest in the city of Visby on the western coast of the island (beside the obviously extremely strategic position in the middle of the baltic sea...).
Even today you can find buildings, details on walls and murals, baptismal fonts etc, along the whole of the Baltic coast built from Gotlandic limestone.

Edit: shout-out to my man Sigraf:

Sigraf - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ryndal]

I think the area called Skene in Västra Götaland should be renamed either Mark or Öresten.
The area was called Marks härad where Mark actually meant Borderlands.
Öresten was the castle/fort that was supposed to protect Sweden from Denmark during 14th century.

Sidenote: It is again called Marks Kommun after being called Kinna Köping before the principality reform.

According to Wikipedia Öresten is located in Skene which is kind of the case, it is located quite a bit outside of Skene I can't find any data that suggests that Skene was one of the biggest town or cities in the area.

Edit: Öresten was then razed at what is believed to be 1521 and afterwards there has been another castle/fort called Kinnaborg, another 10 Kms northeast of Öresten.

 

[Stormy seas]

They say that before the cars came the sea were the main road of western norway and i believe this should be reflected ingame. Therefore i believe instead of locations touching each other making travel overland possible, they should have strait crossings over the fjords. This is due to the mountains hugging the fjords so tightly that overland travel simply wasnt possible.

As a bonus this also encourages a sea invasion of the main prize of western norway bergen or a more perilous mountain invasion as an invasion from the north or south would simply take to long before winter comes. Below you can see a rough map of the strait crossings in the south and some rough locations (some can probably be merged)

 

[Capitano Diego Alatriste]

I have seen many comments here about renaming of "suomenusko", and I agree it would be better if it was renamed. One example would be "finnic" or "finnic paganism". It would work, but it might sound too generic. I also saw that someone mentioned "ukonusko" after the high god Ukko. I saw one CK3 mod, don't remember what, which changed the name to "väenusko" which I personally like the most, as it captures the essence of the old finnic faith; "väki" core "energy" of spirits, environment, animals and people.

Also, as in TT:27 was written that some religions can block culture assimilation (ethnoreligion stuff), I think that "sami shamanism" and "suomenusko" should also have that thing. It would make sense if to assimilate these cultures you would have to convert them first, as suddenly having many swedes following these cultural faiths does not make sense. That thing could maybe be added to other "cultural original faiths" around the world, at least for the smaller ones.

 

[Saraste]

Will recreating Swedens EU4 borders with colonization be something wich will take a entire century or be relativiely quick?

I don’t think the colonization should be quick. Sweden lacked actual control of large parts of Lapland for many centuries after that