Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Clyde Wallach]

The letter Å/å was introduced into Danish and Norwegian in the last century and should be replaced in all instances by Aa/aa.

Vendsyssel-Thy was originally a peninsula and became an island following a storm in 1825, but it's unclear to me which one it's meant to be on the map. The Limfjord should be depicted as narrows.

Why Norra Lappland, Södra Lappland, Nørrejylland, Sønderjylland, and Østjylland, but Eastern Lappland and Western Jutland? Let's please try to maintain some consistency.

Copenhagen and Fehmarn should be locations. Keep in mind that Fehmarn was historically part of Schleswig, not Holstein.

Hammershus should be Borghandæholm. Historically the island was attached to Scania, not Zealand, prior to its conquest by Sweden. So move it to one of the Scanian provinces.

Replace the Lappland provinces with something based on the Lappmarken.

Lappmarken - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Western Kola is almost completely outside the Kola Peninsula and should be renamed to something else, perhaps East Lapland.

Jämtland is the Swedish name of a province that at this time belongs to Norway. I'm not sure what the Norwegian name would be, but it wouldn't contain an ä.

Bergenhus Län should be Bergenhus Lehn. Blekinge should be Blekyng. Bohus Län should be Baahus Lehn. Far Karelia should be North Karelia. Funen should be Funen & Laaland. Göinge should be Gønge. Karelia should be South Karelia.

Sønderjylland should be enlarged with Slesvig province and Nørrejylland should be enlarged with Vendsyssel-Thy. 4 provinces are enough for what's not even the whole of the Jutland peninsula.

 

[Chieron]

Copenhagen and Fehmarn should be locations. Keep in mind that Fehmarn was historically part of Schleswig, not Holstein.

Fehmarn probably is a bit too small to make the location cut. And that would be feedback for Germany, not Scandinavia.
But I do agree that Copenhagen should be split from Roskilde, but looking at the locations in the Germany TT map, there location makeup of the Danish isles was reworked literally a week later, so this probably already is the case.. And indeed it is, see the harbor map of TT#24 - Copenhagen is separated from Roskilde (and a great harbor).

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Revisiting this thread to give some feedback on Finnish RGOs. The issue with it is that its mostly homogenous blob of ”lumber”, which looks kind of silly compared to the diverse RGOs neighbouring Sweden and to a lesser extent Russia have. And yes, lumber should still be common, but more diversification would make it more interesting and historically accurate.

In my opinion there should be a lot more furs, as they were a valuable finnish export even before the swedish takeover. Most this fur should be where the lumber is too, in the poorer and more sparsely settled interior.

It also strikes me weird how there is only two livestock locations in all of Finland. Livestock was important as the soil was poor and required fertilizer for anything more permanent than slash-and-burn farming, and manure fit this purpose perfectly. Also butter was a major trade commodity.

Satakunta should have at least some grain (wheat or sturdy grain) production similar to Finland proper, as it was one of the more arable regions in the middle ages.

Western coast has decent amount of fish, but for some reason eastern coast doesnt have any, which is odd. Fish was another important export, for example in places like Vyborg.

Another strange thing is the complete lack of iron. Sweden has a bunch, so why not Finland too? Ironworks were some of the earliest industrial enterprises in Finland, using bog/lake iron ore that was plentiful.

In summary: more furs, livestock, fish, iron and a little more grain.

Sources: (you’ll have to use google translate, sorry. also not very scientific sources, sorry.)

Suomen taloushistoria – Wikipedia

fi.wikipedia.org

Suomen keskiaikaiset kaupungit – Wikipedia

fi.wikipedia.org

Keskiajan Suomessa asuttiin kylässä mutta ei pussinperällä â talonpoikaisyhteisöä ajatellaan suotta pysähtyneeksi ja tasapäiseksi

Tuuli Heinosen väitöskirjassa Uudenmaan keskiaikainen kyläelämä on vilkasta ja kirjavaa sekä aineellisesti että sosiaalisesti. Kyliin päätyi myös ulkomaista luksusta, kun kaupoilla käytiin isossa Tallinnassa, vaikka se luvatonta olikin.

yle.fi

Luettelo Suomen rautaruukeista – Wikipedia

fi.wikipedia.org

 

[sevibab]

The letter Å/å was introduced into Danish and Norwegian in the last century and should be replaced in all instances by Aa/aa.

Written Norwegian did not exist for the entirety of the game period. I think keeping the Å/å is more accurate than to use last century Danish spelling for Norway

 

[Polesie Admiral]

how about adding another seazone for the Neva bay?

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Written Norwegian did not exist for the entirety of the game period. I think keeping the Å/å is more accurate than to use last century Danish spelling for Norway

What's accurate about using a letter that was not in use in Norwegian at any point during the period covered by the game, didn't exist in any language prior to the 16th century, and was borrowed from Swedish? Aa has a longer history by definition - Å replaced it - regardless of whether it stretches as far back as 1337. And Norwegian has long been a written language, even when it was written down using runes or the Latin alphabet with Danish spelling.

 

[Talvald]

The seazone outside Nordfjord, called Stadhavet is one of the most weather-exposed areas of sea in Norway.
The waters have challenging wave conditions for shipping 90 to 110 days a year. Cross seas creates difficult steering conditions, and the weather can change quickly. Making this area one of the most dangerous sea areas along the coast. There is a reason that people for a long time, have wished for building a ship tunnel through Stad to protect the crossing of Stad.

I suggest that this sea area be given its own modifier that makes sailing and logistic around this sea zone more costly in terms of time and organization of ships, to symbolize the challenges one had/has with sailing around Stad. It will also make it possible to turn Stadhavet/Nordfjord into a bottleneck that can be used tactically, for example, see the Battle of Hjørungavåg where the Ladejarl meeted the Danish army in battle after passing Stad.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

By the way

By this definition, don’t most Sami belong in the latter group? They mostly practiced hunting/gathering and fishing, reindeer herding was started by them many years after game start and even then only for some of them. From what I know, they also didn’t have centralization or permanent settlements, though there might be some examples I’m not aware of.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

this is the towns and cities mapmode the scandinavia portion for suggestions
shouldnt Ribe and Malmö be towns?

 

[bretjemaine]

I'm not an expert on Danish history, but shouldn't Aarhus be a town at this point? It had a cathedral.

 

[Chieron]

this is the towns and cities mapmode the scandinavia portion for suggestions
shouldnt Ribe and Malmö be towns?

Malmö only got city rights in 1353, its main church was just started to be built in 1319. So it was not yet relevant in 1337, completely overshadowed by nearby Lund.

Ribe on the other hand was an important city and harbor, only declining in the 16th century. With a population of 5000, it was one of the largest cities in northern Europe. Ribe should definitely be a town in my book.

Lödöse should also be considered as a town. The town later declined completely, by being overtaken by Göteborg in the same Project Caesar location. I don't know, how big it actually was.

 

[honkajoki]

Viipuri (Viborg, Vyborg, Wyborg) castle was built in 1293. Official city rights were given in 1403, but it's mentioned as a city in some 1350s Vatican archive document. No idea about population. So I'm not stating it should be a city, or a town, but perhaps that's something to be looked at. Depends a lot on what the cutouts for towns and cities are.

 

[Chieron]

I'm not an expert on Danish history, but shouldn't Aarhus be a town at this point? It had a cathedral.

Beware, plenty of places had a cathedral, but would not reach that development level. It could well be a town, but something like population in the town and economic activity are probably better indicators for this.

 

[Pigpower]

The fact that Lödöse is not a town is laughable and is such a blatant show of the Stockholm/Uppsala focused academy that still prevail in the portrayal of Swedish history.

 

[Ipponen]

Posting this here because from the Scandinavia update peeks we've seen it seems the former Karelian wasteland is being handled by Johan. From the steppes map it looks like Repola is currently misplaced. It should be moved down to near where Pienika (Seems to be a misspelling of Pieninkä) currently is.

Fulmen made an interesting post about historical borders in the region on the Russia thread. Before Sweden received the Kexholm County in the Treaty of Stolbovo the county's borders actually reached further north than after the treaty. While we both agreed in-game Kexholm borders should match the post Treaty of Stolbovo borders, it could add some flavor to represent the older border in the game, especially because it almost became part of the official border between Sweden and Russia.

Nice work. I wish I had the energy to do such an extensive post.

A couple of minor nitpicks or additions:

Post-1617 maps tend to always draw the Korela Uyezd, i.e. Käkisalmen lääni, Kexholms län, with its post-Treaty of Stolbovo borders, which is the case in the maps you posted as well. In reality the Uyezd was larger. Specifically, it also included Repola, which was a part of the Ilomantsi Greater Pogost (suurpogosta) (e.g. the 1571 Ilomantsi Pogost tax book mentions taxes being collected from the villages of Repola, Luovutsaari and Roukkula in the area of what later became Repola Pogost).

"The earliest mentions of Repola are in the 1555 Korelan Nousia Rydzin's account and in the 1571 Greater Pogost of Ilomantsi's tax book about the villages of Repola, Luovutsaari and Roukkula. The Swedes stated that in 1593 the Repola area contained 166 houses."[1]

Meanwhile Porajärvi and its surrounding lands belonged to the Valamo Monastery. Both villages and their surrounding areas were a part of the Korela Uyezd and should have been handed over to Sweden in the 1617 Treaty of Stolbovo. The Russians disagreed, claiming that because Repola had mostly paid taxes to Kola rather than Korela, and Porajärvi to Novgorod (note that even the Russians' own tax lists showed that Porajärvi paid taxes to Valamo, which the Swedes knew as they had captured such a list from the City of Novgorod, so I'm not sure what this claim was based on), that these territories were ancient Russian land and thus not a part of the Korela Uyezd. This also despite the populations of the villages wanting to join Sweden. Repola itself was already controlled by Sweden, I forget what Porajärvi's de facto status was at the time. The Russians were unwilling to compromise and border negotiations at times almost led to violent clashes, and eventually Sweden's King Gustav II Adolf relented that it's not worth keeping the border with the Russians undecided when there simultaneously was a threat from Poland's direction in the south (Livonia etc.), and ceded the two territories.[2] It is only then that the Korela Uyezd, now Kexholms län (Käkisalmen lääni), received the borders always drawn on maps.

This is my approximation of the northern-northeastern border of the pre-Treaty of Stolbovo Korela Uyezd[3]. There were also some modifications made to it in the southeast, giving birth to the Hyrsylä Bend. My understanding is that before Stolbovo the Uyezd's border ran fairly straight from Lake Unusjärvi to Lake Ladoga. I don't know this but it would not surprise me if the southeastern border of the Uyezd had been all the way at the Tuulos river. It is the closest larger river in the area, after all.

View attachment 1166485

The second nitpick is this other anachronistic tendency in 20th and 21st century maps: drawing the southernmost Finnish border (and thus also pre-1617 Swedish) on the 1864 Rust Ditch border. This is a mistake far smaller than the anachronism with the Korela Uyezd, but it's nonetheless very noticeable to the trained eye, so to speak.

Before Peter the Great dammed the Siestarjoki (Systerbäck, Sestra) river in the early 18th century, the river made this kind of U-shaped loop into the south, and so did the Finnish border, which was situated on the river. The river itself flowed into the sea on the same spot it flows into the sea now. Damming the river created the artificial Lake Sestroretsk (Siestarjärvi), which then led to several alterations of the Finnish border during Tsarist rule over Finland (1809-1917) until settling on the 1864 border on the Rust Ditch (itself dug IIRC in 1839), which lasted until WW2. Most 20th and 21st century maps depicting Swedish Finland tend to anachronistically display the 1864 border as the southern border, when in reality it ran several km to the south of that. Moreover, it ran all the way to Retusaari Island, modern-day Kotlin Island, cutting it in half, at least since the very early 1400s, possibly before.[4]

Here's an illustration of the border changes on the Siestarjoki and its immediate area. Excuse the Google-translated Russian.[5]

View attachment 1166499

Here's the border to Retusaari. This remained the border of Viborg Province until c. 1721 as well. Of course pre-1617 it didn't continue southwest to Ingria the way it does in the map below, but rather continued directly west into the sea after the island.

View attachment 1166500

[1]Leo Homanen (2005): Repolan historiaa vuoteen 1939 ja Homasen suvun vaiheita [The History of Repola to 1939 and Events of the Homanen Dynasty], p. 2.

View attachment 1166487

[2]For a slightly more comprehensive breakdown of the negotiations and their events, see: Helge Seppälä (1994): Vuosisatainen taistelu Karjalasta [The Centuries-long Battle for Karelia], pp. 29-30.

View attachment 1166488View attachment 1166490

[3]Based on the old border of the Uyezd as told by the inhabitants of the area, see Karjalan Heimo 7-8/1990, p. 132.

View attachment 1166491

[4]See also Kyösti Julku (1987): Suomen itärajan synty [The Birth of Finland's Eastern Border], p. 215. Though ironically Julku's book also has the 1864 Rust Ditch anachronism I talked about.

[5]From a great Russian webpage detailing the history of the river. The website itself also has many goodies in the form of historical maps and information, I recommend checking it out. https://www.aroundspb.ru/history/syster/syster.php

Fulmen's map is just an approximation, so here's a map where I traced the two border rivers in more detail:

Here's also a translation of the section "Riidan aiheet" from one of Fulmen's sources:

"The village of Pälväjärvi has been brought to awareness by professor Arvi Korhonen in his book "Suomen itärajan syntyhistoria". In it he discusses the border dispute extensively and tells how the Russian border commission lived in the village of Pälväjärvi and the Swedish negotiators lived in the church village of Porajärvi. The negotiations were carried out on "no man's land" between the villages, near Valasmo ironworks.

The border negotiations took many years. Disputes occurred because they were unable to come to an agreement about the border of Kexholm County. Sweden annexed the aforementioned county into Finland in the treaty of Stolbovo. At the time the county was large. In addition to Viborg County it also encompassed modern North Karelia. [This might be an error by the author because the former Russian county of Kexholm did not include Viborg.] The Swedes had sufficient evidence that Porajärvi was part of Kexholm County, which includes:
- The land areas of Porajärvi and Repola were owned by the Valaam Monastary located in Kexholm County, which had received the areas as inheritance land.
- The inhabitants of Porajärvi paid their taxes, both by agreement and threat, to Kexholm County, specifically to the Valaam Monastery. This payment of taxes was also proven by the Russians' own tax records, which the Swedes had gotten from Novgorod.
- Additionally, the people of Suojärvi remembered Porajärvi being part of Kexholm County, as they testified: The old border ran, beginning from lake Unusjärvi in Suojärvi, along river Irstajoki near the village of Kostamus and from there to the river Suununjoki. The wheat lands of Suojärvi were situated on the side of Porajärvi near the village of Kostamus.

The Russians did not accept the evidence. They opposed very strongly making Suununjoki into a border river. The river would have been a "war road" to lake Onega and having it be the border would have also resulted in Repola being part of Finland."

The area south of the border would be quite wide, so the western side should be part of Repola (Russian: Ре́болы/Reboly, Karelian: Rebol’a) while the eastern side should probably be part of Porajärvi (Russian: Поросо́зеро/Porosozero, South Karelian: Porarvi). (I'm a bit unsure about Porajärvi because it seems that modern village (is mostly situated on the northern coast of Suunujoki. At the same time Fulmen's sources explicitly state that Porajärvi was part of Kexholm County and should've been given to Sweden in the Treaty of Stolbovo. Another, in my opinion less preferable, option would be Lentiera (Russian: Ле́ндеры/Lendery, Karelian: Lentiera), which was first mentioned in 1611, but is so close to Repola that the Repola location could end up being too small.

 

[Capitano Diego Alatriste]

I am not sure how castles and fortifications will work in the game, but I think that finland should start with at least 3 castle buildings. One in Turku/Åbo, of course. One in Viipuri/Viborg, as it had it's castle built in 1293, like honkajoki said couple posts before, and it was important border castle. Also one in Hämeenlinna/Tavastehus, as it has castle built in end of 1200 century, and it was also important for defense and control of the area. Finland had also other castles, but these three are the most important, and probably only ones that finland should start with in the game.

Also finland had this "kings road"/"kungsvägen"/"kuninkaantie" pretty important post road that went from Åland to Viborg along the coast. It was part of swedish postroad system which connected also Stockholm to important norwegian towns. I do not know if this road network is important enough to be added to the game, but it would be cool. If the finnish part of the road would be added, then the swedish and norvegian parts must be added as well probably. but I am not exactly sure where it was there.

 

[honkajoki]

I am not sure how castles and fortifications will work in the game, but I think that finland should start with at least 3 castle buildings. One in Turku/Åbo, of course. One in Viipuri/Viborg, as it had it's castle built in 1293, like honkajoki said couple posts before, and it was important border castle. Also one in Hämeenlinna/Tavastehus, as it has castle built in end of 1200 century, and it was also important for defense and control of the area. Finland had also other castles, but these three are the most important, and probably only ones that finland should start with in the game.

Yes, those three castles should be in the game. Were there other "modern" stone castles or were the other hill forts? Kuusisto bishop's castle perhaps, but if it's in the game it'll likely be some other type of building, as it would be within the same location as Turku/Åbo castle.

Also finland had this "kings road"/"kungsvägen"/"kuninkaantie" pretty important post road that went from Åland to Viborg along the coast. It was part of swedish postroad system which connected also Stockholm to important norwegian towns. I do not know if this road network is important enough to be added to the game, but it would be cool. If the finnish part of the road would be added, then the swedish and norvegian parts must be added as well probably. but I am not exactly sure where it was there.

Was the King's road already there in 1337? From what I find it was built in 14th century, but I can't find (I'm lazy) a more accurate date. TT6 shows some roads around Stockholm, but I don't see anything in Finland or Norway. If the game's start date was in 15th century I'd agree that King's road should be there. Remains to be see how the player or AI will be guided to replicate history, perhaps there's some mission or event or something to build it, or perhaps something similar will be built just because it makes sense. Then again, many of the towns reachable by the King's road in Finland also had ports. How much did people/goods/armies/whatever travel by road as compared to sea?

 

[Ipponen]

I am not sure how castles and fortifications will work in the game, but I think that finland should start with at least 3 castle buildings. One in Turku/Åbo, of course. One in Viipuri/Viborg, as it had it's castle built in 1293, like honkajoki said couple posts before, and it was important border castle. Also one in Hämeenlinna/Tavastehus, as it has castle built in end of 1200 century, and it was also important for defense and control of the area. Finland had also other castles, but these three are the most important, and probably only ones that finland should start with in the game.

Also finland had this "kings road"/"kungsvägen"/"kuninkaantie" pretty important post road that went from Åland to Viborg along the coast. It was part of swedish postroad system which connected also Stockholm to important norwegian towns. I do not know if this road network is important enough to be added to the game, but it would be cool. If the finnish part of the road would be added, then the swedish and norvegian parts must be added as well probably. but I am not exactly sure where it was there.

This map of medieval roads could be useful (I added the names of the roads in white):

According to Wikipedia, Huovintie between Åbo and Ulvsby and Hämeen härkätie between Åbo and Tavastehus are both ancient roads from as far back as the 9th century, so they should definitely exist at start. I wasn't able to find when the Ulsby-Korsholm road (later part of Pohjanmaan rantatie) was constructed, but it was mentioned in 1556 in a list of roads made by Gustav Vasa's secretary Jaakko Teitti. The same list also had the first mention of Ylinen Viipurintie. Kyrönkankaan tie was first mentioned in 1459, while the construction of Suuri Savontie corresponded to the construction of Olofsborg in the 15th century. According to upplagsverket.fi, Kuninkaantie arose in the 1340s or 1350s, so maybe the road or parts of the road could already be there in 1337, or not.

 

[Capitano Diego Alatriste]

Yes, those three castles should be in the game. Were there other "modern" stone castles or were the other hill forts? Kuusisto bishop's castle perhaps, but if it's in the game it'll likely be some other type of building, as it would be within the same location as Turku/Åbo castle.

From my research around internet it seems that other "castles", that were built before PC:s starting date, were mostly wooden hill forts. Other than hill forts there were castle in Kumo/Kokemäki; but it was probably wooden and demolished just couple decades from the game start, one wooden castle Eurajoki; which main purpose was to defend the coast; it fell out of use in 1400 century, and one other stone castle in Åland; Kastelholman linna/Kastelholms slott; which was center of power in Åland untill Åland was put under management of Turku. I think it might be too close to Turku, so maybe it would not really make sense if game had castle in there. And as you said about the Kuusisto castle, it's location would probably be in Turku, maybe if the game will have some similar building for priests like nobility has "nobility fortifications" as seen in one saturday buildings.

Edit: Kastelholma is too new, my mistake. Thanks to honkajoki correcting me below. Åland should still be part of Egentliga Finland province, not Uppland.

 

[honkajoki]

From my research around internet it seems that other "castles", that were built before PC:s starting date, were mostly wooden hill forts. Other than hill forts there were castle in Kumo/Kokemäki; but it was probably wooden and demolished just couple decades from the game start, one wooden castle Eurajoki; which main purpose was to defend the coast; it fell out of use in 1400 century, and one other stone castle in Åland; Kastelholman linna/Kastelholms slott; which was center of power in Åland untill Åland was put under management of Turku. I think it might be too close to Turku, so maybe it would not really make sense if game had castle in there. And as you said about the Kuusisto castle, it's location would probably be in Turku, maybe if the game will have some similar building for priests like nobility has "nobility fortifications" as seen in one saturday buildings.

We're mostly in agreement, but I think Kastelholma did not yet exist at game start. Whether it would make sense to have it so close to Turku depends on how castles will work, and if they'll include a location or even two between Turku and Åland like I've suggested in this thread.