Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

[Anish Lahiri]

@Pavía I've been following all the DDs of Project Ceaser from the very beginning.....with extremely high hopes and today,man you made me smile from my heart.....to see my homeland,my country being depicted such beautifully,thanks a lot ,I hope I'll have a blast playing in India!!

 

[Bishweshwar]

Also, you guys are missing a country in modern-day Mumbai. Mahikavati should control the locations of Thana and Chaul. Here are some notes I wrote earlier in preparation for this Tinto maps, and the sources I derived those notes from.

Mahikavati
- Ruled by Raja Nagardev, who inherited Mahikavati (encompassing the 7 islands of Mumbai) through his wife, who was the sister of Raja Pratapbimba and daughter of Raja Bimba
- Nagardev's dynasty is unknown, but his wife is of Seuna descent
- Last landed remnants of the Seuna dynasty, which once controlled much of the Deccan (or was until the death of Pratapbimba) [Maybe giving them cores or claims on the old territories of the Seuna Empire would make Mahikavati a fun, but extremely challenging start. It would be fun to revive a dead-empire from a mere two-location-minor]
- Was defeated and conquered at the Battle of Byculla in 1347 by Malik Niku from Gujarat
- Raja Pratapbimba was actually assassinated by Nagardev in a coup in 1331
- Nagardev, before becoming the Raja of Mahikavati, was the Chief of Cheul (so maybe Cheul can be his dynasty name, if you can't think of anything else)
- Before Malik Niku's attack, Mubarak Shah of Delhi had launched attacks and conquered on Mahikavati, but was never able to really solidify control over the region, and control fully ended and the territory reverted to Hindu rule when the Tughluq-Gujarati Wars errupted, though he sent a considerable amount of Gujarati Muslim colonists to the area, including the territories controlled by Mahikavati
- Mahikavati power-base was mainly centered around Mahim and Salsette Island

Sources:
- https://archive.org/details/risebombayaretr00edwagoog/page/n48/mode/2up?q=pratapbimba
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagardev
- https://archive.org/details/dli.csl.3282/page/n169/mode/2up

 

[Chagatai Khagan]

Hi Pavia,
Firstly, absolutely gorgeous map. Its tough to believe the mindnumbing complexity of South Asia could have been captured so well in a game. But a few small suggestions from my end. I'm looking only at southern India because that is the region I know best and that I studied in my undergrad and masters in history.
1) First small nitpick from the political map, I think the naming of the Madurai Sultanate as Ma'bar might be a bit confusing. It was a name used only for a very short period of time and conventionally most people only know of it as the Madurai Sultanate (an equally accurate name but one that is far far more recognisable.) Would suggest maybe changing it, particularly because it can be easily confused with the Malabar coast directly nearby. It will also allow for a certain continuity if the Madurai Nayaks follow them as occurred in real history.
2) For Jaffna, the appropriate spelling at the time, from Tamil, would have been Yazhpanam or Yalpanam. Its unclear what is shown in the Locations 3 map, but it does not look accurate.
3) In the provinces map mode, the Kongu Nadu province seems to be going too far south. Even the widest possible descriptions of Kongu Nadu as a cultural (and caste) region go only as far south as Dindigul, not all the way till Cumbum (which is far more culturally similar to Madurai or Pandya Nadu). I recognise this may have been done for balance reasons too though and to ensure no province has too few locations. Also small suggestion, but the Mysore Plateau region should ideally be called the Mysuru Plateau. Mysore is an English exonym of course.
4) In the areas map I think Sailan as a name requires review. Ceylon came from the Protuguese Ceilão most likely. At this point in time the area would have been most likely known by its Sinhala and Tamil endonyms, so either Tambapanni (Sinhala) or Eelam or Ilangai (Tamil). Tamil Nadu is also a very modern name (1969). It has been used in one or two manuscripts from the Sangam era, but a vast vast majority of documentation used to refer to it as Tamizhagam or Tamilakam (essentially the more natural term for the Tamil country, which is what Tamil Nadu also translates to).
5) In the vegitation map mode maybe the provinces along the Kaveri/Cauvery river need to be farmlands and not jungle. There is a gap in the eastern ghats there which opens into some of the richest paddy cultivation zones around Erode. Given that it was the rice bowl of the region (alongside the Pandya country and the Kaveri delta) marking it as Jungle may not be entirely accurate.
6) Finally, and this is my biggest nit-pick, the entire Tamil country, apart from Kanyakumari (I think) has no harbours. This was one of the most maritime cultures of the Indian ocean, with a trading history that goes very far back. There are ports near Madurai where vast troves of Roman coins have been found, alongside Chinese coins, and even trade as far away as Japan and the Swahili coast. Additionally Madras is not a harbour province, which seems odd given that that harbour would later go onto essentially create the whole British Indian empire. If there are mechanics that add harbours in later in the game then that would make sense, but I just wanted to flag. What makes it additionally odd is that Pulicat (a suburb of Madras/Chennai) is a trade region but Pulicat itself lacks a harbour in this. (That being said, maybe Pulicat is not the right name for that trade region, given that it was just fishing villages before the Vijayanagara conquest of the region, when much larger ports would have existed in this region, from Pumpuhar, Musiri and Kaveripattanam to the south, and Kottapattanam and Machilipattanam to the north.
7) Small question about the location immediately north of Thanjavur that has Amber. I've never come across any significant mentions of Amber being a good that was produced in that region (current day Kallkurichi, Ariyalur etc). I mean I'm sure it'll be a great trade good to have for my very first game (doubtless Madurai Sultanate) but may not be fully historically accurate no?
Also thanks again for such a detailed look at South Asia!

 

[DominusNovus]

No comments on the map, per se. Just eager to do a Nestorian India run…

Oh! Idea for an achievement:
“I am Prester John!”
- Have Eastern Africa, the Middle East, India, and Central Asia dominated by local (ie: non European) Christian states (say, X% of the population/wealth under the rule of an independent Christian state with a capital in the area).

 

[theolaa]

I LOVE how the climate map mode looks now!

 

[Bishweshwar]

I already posted this under Tinto Talks #13, but I thought it'd be useful for me to post this here too. Sindh should definitely not be a Buddhist minority, and as of 1337 it should still be majority Hindu. I've wrote some details about the religious groups of Sindh below:

The Hindus of Sindh:

The Hindus of Sindh very much dominant in the rural areas of Sindh, with a few Buddhists and very little Muslims being found in the region. The dominant sect here was Pashupata Shaivism, with Multan further to the North in Punjab being a large center for the sect's worshipers along the Indus (not sure if you're planning on representing the diversity in Hinduism or not, but it'd be nice of you to do). The Hindu-Muslim relationship in Sindh was less violent than it was further North in Punjab, and there aren't really any proven instances of large-scale forced conversion in Sindh, so despite Sindh being under Muslim rule for quite a while by this point Hindus were still the majority throughout Sindh, especially in the Northern areas of Sindh.

The Buddhists of Sindh (and Gujarat):

The Buddhists of Sindh and Gujarat were a very cosmopolitan people and were both mostly of the Saṃmitīya school, who were staunch, you could say aggressive, opponents to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. They would often even burn Tantric scriptures and destroy Tantric statues. A Sindhi Buddhist is reported to have said "That which is called Mahayana is only a source of livelihood for those who follow the wrong view. Therefore, keep clear of those so-called preachers of the 'True Doctrine'." Their center of learning was in Valabhi University in Gujarat, and as such they were mostly concentrated in along the Western Coast of India (Sindh and Gujarat) compared to the inland Gangetic Valley who's Buddhists were a lot more pro-Tantric. In Sindh specifically, they were concentrated in the major cities of Southern Sindh, especially in the port city of Dewal. They were also present in various Gujarati coastal cities. The Saṃmitīya Buddhists of Sindh definitely shouldn't be classified as Mahayana, and though they aren't exactly identical to Theravada Buddhists, if you had to group them with one of the three main-branches the Theravada Buddhists would be the closest thing to group them with. I'd still perfer you make a separate Sammitiya religion though, given that you guys seem to have no quarrel with putting fairly small religions in the game (like the ethnic religion of the Meitei, for example), so what's one more?

The Muslims of Sindh:

Conversation of Hindus to Islam was a very slow and gradual process (even in 1941, Sindh would only be 71% Muslim and would still remain 26% Hindu), so Sindh would be no means be majority Muslim yet. However, there would definitely be a significant Muslim minority composed of immigrants from the West and some newer Indian converts.

Conclusion:

If I had to assign percentages, Northern Sindh should be roughly made around 80% Hindu, 5% Buddhist, and 10% Muslim as a whole, with Buddhists being pretty much absent from the rural areas of the North and mostly just concentrated in the cities.

Southern Sindh should be roughly made around 65% Hindu, 25% Buddhist, and 10% Muslim as a whole, with Buddhists and Muslims being more prevalent in urban areas. In the coastal city of Dewal (perhaps modern-day Karachi), they may have outnumbered the Hindus and formed the dominant religion, though this was just in the city itself, not the entire location you're representing (given that the location also contains rural areas within it). Buddhists and Hindus were at around even numbers in the 7th century, though after the overall decline of Buddhism in India, and given that Buddhists may have converted to Islam at greater rates than Hindus, Southern Sindh should most likely have a pretty decent Hindu majority. The exact demographics are at your discretion, I just thought it would be helpful to include some guidelines on what you should aim for.

Sources:

Islam in South Asia: A Short History (Jamal Malik)
Religion and Society in Arab Sind (Derryl N. MacLean)

 

[dbruser]

Will there be a map mode that shows the ruler's/nation's religion? Can't really tell at a glance what nations are Muslim and what are Hindu when most of the population is Hindu.

 

[Linbot#6018]

Terrain has an impact on the control you can exert, yes, in two different ways. First, it impacts the Proximity, which is the base for the calculation of the control a country has over a location. And secondly, it impacts the development in each location, which also impacts the Proximity.

I think that showing the tooltip for Proximity Impact on a certain location will help to understand this:
View attachment 1190033

I do feel like something that ought to be represented is that Tibet has been conquered from the direction of China and Xinjiang three times, and the Tibetan empire at its height expanded through those same routes as well. India has never conquered Tibet and Tibet has never expanded into the Indian plains. But inthis game, the mountains separating Tibet from those regions are identical to the mountains separating it from India.

Maybe you could argue it might have something to do with how any country in the Indian plain would see other countries in the plains as valuable targets compared to which Tibet and Nepal are worthless?

 

[Linbot#6018]

Isn't it kind of weird that Gujarat is broken up into two areas, only one of which is called Gujarat? I'm not really sure why this is. Especially since a united Gujarat would have the same number of provinces as Rajputana, so it's certainly not because it would be too big.

 

[conqueror101]

Now that we're getting into the spice trade areas, I'll mention that there should probably be a distinction between different types of spices. Certain types were only available in tropical areas, and should be differentiated from those closer to Europe-- especially since we have like 4 types of grain, and dates (the fruit) are their own good lol. Just feels weird we have so much granularity with some goods, and then we get hit with a unitary SPICE rgo.
Not sure how they could be subdivided, 'sweet' vs 'hot' spices? 'tropical' spices? or genuinely just cinnamon/cloves being on their own

Also... elephants here but not in Africa?

I believe elephants are to represent elephants that are ridden. Which as i am aware the sub saharan african people did not do. As if you go back there were quite alot of ivory in Africa

 

[Palfouri]

6) Finally, and this is my biggest nit-pick, the entire Tamil country, apart from Kanyakumari (I think) has no harbours. This was one of the most maritime cultures of the Indian ocean, with a trading history that goes very far back. There are ports near Madurai where vast troves of Roman coins have been found, alongside Chinese coins, and even trade as far away as Japan and the Swahili coast. Additionally Madras is not a harbour province, which seems odd given that that harbour would later go onto essentially create the whole British Indian empire. If there are mechanics that add harbours in later in the game then that would make sense, but I just wanted to flag. What makes it additionally odd is that Pulicat (a suburb of Madras/Chennai) is a trade region but Pulicat itself lacks a harbour in this. (That being said, maybe Pulicat is not the right name for that trade region, given that it was just fishing villages before the Vijayanagara conquest of the region, when much larger ports would have existed in this region, from Pumpuhar, Musiri and Kaveripattanam to the south, and Kottapattanam and Machilipattanam to the north.

AFAIK the harbor mapmode represents locations that are ideally suited to serving as harbors as a result of their physical characteristics, not locations that are major harbors through human development. If there are indeed natural harbors there they should be represented but just because there's no natural harbor doesn't mean there's no major harbors.

 

[Bishweshwar]

I do feel like something that ought to be represented is that Tibet has been conquered from the direction of China and Xinjiang three times, and the Tibetan empire at its height expanded through those same routes as well. India has never conquered Tibet and Tibet has never expanded into the Indian plains. But inthis game, the mountains separating Tibet from those regions are identical to the mountains separating it from India.

Maybe you could argue it might have something to do with how any country in the Indian plain would see other countries in the plains as valuable targets compared to which Tibet and Nepal are worthless?

I mean, iirc the Tibetan Empire conquered Bengal for a short period. I also know that Nepal launched an invasion of Tibet in the 18th century, making it all the way to Tashi Lhunpo, and the Tibetans a few years later launched their own invasion of Nepal a few years later, reaching Nuwakot. I suppose you are right in that Indian and Tibetan nations have struggled to hold onto territory in the other side of the Himalayas though, even if they were able to temporarily conquer them.

 

[Arthrodira]

There should definitely be Zoroastrian minorities (I belive India has the largest Zoroastrian community I. The world today, and that community was started with the persecutions following the Muslim conquest) - I don’t know where the records for that would be though.

There may also still be some Ajivika, though I believe the religion died out around this time.

 

[M1rage5699]

So would any Delhi releasable nation like Punjab, Deccani, etc2 nation get any kind of mission tree?

 

[FleetingRain]

1. Hinduism is internally divided through its mechanics, we'll show that in a future Tinto Talks.
2. It will spawn through a Situation, and we have designed a full set of mechanics for it, which are different from EU4.

What's the reasoning for "unifying" Hinduism but not, say, Buddhism or Islam etc? I'm actually curious.

 

[Nikicaga]

Seeing the detail of the Maldives and Lakshadweep Islands really makes we wish we got a few more small island provinces in Europe

 

[Linbot#6018]

I mean, iirc the Tibetan Empire conquered Bengal for a short period.

Do you have a source for this? I see lots of maps depicting this but I don't think it actually happened.

I also know that Nepal launched an invasion of Tibet in the 18th century, making it all the way to Tashi Lhunpo, and the Tibetans a few years later launched their own invasion of Nepal a few years later, reaching Nuwakot. I suppose you are right in that Indian and Tibetan nations have struggled to hold onto territory in the other side of the Himalayas though, even if they were able to temporarily conquer them.

That's true, although I still feel this is a bit different from India proper conquering Tibet. And as you say neither of those invasions really stuck.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

OH MY GOD. It is everything I hoped for. There are Meitei, there is Sanamahism, there is Kangleipak, there are Kafirs and Pashayis and Santalis and Kurukhs. This is enough to satisfy my layman's understanding of the region. I have some specific suggestions on cultures as always though:

1. Does Sri Lanka have the Aboriginal Vedda people? They used to possess their own language and lived as hunter gatherers among other nations, also looking quite a bit different. Probable natives of Sri Lanka.
2. Nicobar Islands have their own culture and their own native language that is Austroasiatic, is that in? The Andamans to the south could have either Andamanese culture, or be subdivided into Sentinelese, Great Andamanese, Onge and Jarawa bur I think the former approach is the most sensible as they had no way of getting out of those islands and numbered a few thousand at best.
3. Echoing my suggestions in the Persia thread, I think you could add remnants of Sogdian and Saka cultures, the Yaghnobi and Wakhi respectively. I think people of the Hunza Valley, known as Burusho or Kalash are also too interesting to miss, as a sizeable ethnic group with a language isolate and their own primitive Hindu religion similar to the Nuristanis.
4. I would like to see the reality of Dalits and other jātis in this region, as a significant part of the social fabric here.
5. Are Parsis and Zoroastrianism in? Or Sikhism, is there any planned content for it?
6. Will you be adding new native religions to Northeast India or do you deem them to irrelevant for that? I can suggest a bunch when I have the opportunity.
7. Are the Kuki/Chin people in?
8. Jangshung people of Nepal are descendants of the Zhangzhung from ancient Tibet, hope to see them in!
9. The Tughlaq dynasty should probably be of Khalaj culture, a branch of Turkic languages in its own right.

 

[Raven100]

Constructive Feedback regarding Culture Map

1}Typo: Culture group will be Magadhi, not Magahi
2}There are a lot of sources mentioning the presence of a large buddhist population in Eastern Bengal (obviously not the majority but a significant portion who mostly converted to Islam)
3) Garo and Khasi should be a bit further north
4) Why are Assamese in North Bengal? There were various groups but overall spoke different dialects of Bengali and were considered Bengali for the most part. Assamese language was born in the Brahmaputra delta region which is a lot north of where it is. Districts of Northern Bengal like Dinajpur and Maldah very Bengali even in the 14th century and no way Assamese. Please cite your sources for this weird depiction.

 

[Linbot#6018]

I'm skipping locations, provinces and areas for now and skipping straight to terrain. I'll also add this the Bengal master-post.

TOPOGRAPHY
View attachment 1190045
The topography of Bengal, Bihar and Jharkhand seems to be unnaturally flat.
Let's start with the east:
You've added Teliagarhi - which I loved to see - but you've not added the reason why it was important. There are three primary routes into Bengal from North India: North of the Ganges through Tirhut, having to ford multiple rivers and streams; south of the Ganges through the Rajmahal Hills, having only one proper pass guarded by Teliagarhi - or going south through thickly forested Jharkhand, and emerging near Purulia.
Roy, Yogendra P. “SIGNIFICANCE OF TELIAGARHI FORT DURING THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY.” Proceedings of the Indian History Congress, vol. 62, 2001, pp. 1069–77. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/44155847. Accessed 20 Sept. 2024.
Where's the Rajmahal Hills, then???? See below (I've marked Teliagarhi in red)
View attachment 1190048

VEGETATION
Now this is a tricky one.
In Jharkhand, the Rajmahal hills south of Teliagarhi were thickly forested.


Jharkhand itself was variously sparsely and thickly forested:


Here's where a larger problem arises. Referring to Eaton's wonderful work "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier":

But this implies large parts of East and North-East Bengal had thick jungles, something not represented in EU4. Now, we don't have any extant records of forest cover - but what we can do is take not of major cities, take a 2-ish province area around it then make the rest various degrees of forested. But before that areas we DO have records of forest cover of.

The Sunderbans should definitely be jungles, I don't know why they aren't already.


- Ralph Fitch
By the above we can presume that there was a region of wilderness between Koch and Satgaon-Hughli. It can be a safe bet to add various forested areas in Rangpur and Rajshahi till Jessore, though cities must be kept intact.

Isa Khan ("Isacan") was the famous Baro-Bhuiyan chief with his capital at Katrabo, somewhat near Barisal (Bakla). By the presence of of tigers and foxes, we can also presume the existence of forests in the Sonargaon (Sinnergan)-Barisal region (Presumably both the Sundarbans south of Barisal and the uncultivated regions north of Sonargaon).

Further forested areas include parts of Mymensingh, Sylhet and North Bengal. Roughly a third to maybe even half of East Bengal's grasslands should be forested, according to Eaton's book.
View attachment 1190058

According to @Sulphurologist's terrain map, these hills are too small to be shown if we are to be consistent with the rest of the map. So take it up with the lack of a terrain type for low hills, I guess. Perhaps you could argue there should be impassable zones?