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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.png

As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.jpg


Locations:
Locations.jpg

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Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

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Areas:
Areas.jpg

The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
Development.jpg

A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg


Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

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Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

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India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

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India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
Population.jpg

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India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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I hope you change Yuan's color either to red or at least anything that's not green, because having both of the Asian superpowers of the same color just hurts the eyes.
 
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Been just a little busy this past month (and of course the Indian map thread should come out during it) but I have broken my self-imposed hibernation for this.

First off, I only have questions/requests (demands?).
  1. Could I please get a more zoomed-in view of Tamil Nadu, Kerala and northern Sri Lanka (for the location maps)? I cannot read it clearly enough.
  2. On names: what is the philosophy here? I assumed (from earlier TMs) that colonial-era names were not preferred (which certainly makes sense, for 1337) and even then, Romanizations were done based on standards (there are no ISO-15919 diacritics here!!!). So I suppose my question(s) is:
    1. Are you just going to use "common-writing" names for the locations? (Just to illustrate, for example, "Madurai" would be "Maturai" under the ISO-15919 scheme.)
    2. Whatever the answer to that question, are colonial-era/modern names the overall plan here? If not, "Gingee" should be "Senji," "Cumbum" should be "Kambam," "Salem" should be "Selam," and so on and so forth.

If the answers to either of these questions is "no," I can write something up. If they are both "yes," consider me disappointed. Especially for the second. That we should be reminded of our colonial history even when it is anachronistic would be quite unfortunate.

Other than that, this looks mostly good. Though there should be more Buddhist and Jaina minorities in certain places (especially Theravada Buddhists in and around Nagapattinam). And "Wynad" should be "Wayanad" - I don't think it was ever spelled like that. Finally, any sources on the Sunni minorities around the Malabar (edit: Coromandel, sorry) coast? I would be interested in reading them.

Thanks!
 
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Also, I'm noticing that there are few cultural minorities in South India. Are the Irular and the Badaga peoples of the Nilgiri hills represented? They speak a different language than the more sanskritized, urbanized majority, and are thus mostly considered disparate from the "Tamil" moniker.

Last thing (for now): I would prefer the use of Tamilakam over Tamil Nadu, which was only coined in the last century with the Dravidian movement. Tamilakam as a description of the southern-most tip of the peninsula is attested in the Sangam texts beginning 250 BCE (or earlier, depending on how nationalistic you're feeling).
 
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I lied about that being the last thing. I have an issue with Pulicat being the "market city" there. The fort was only established in 1502. Thoothukudi or Nagapattinam would be better, since the pearl fisheries in the former made it a large trading seaport, and as for the latter, it was the foremost port under the Cholas, trading especially in bronzes.
 
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Also, re: the whole Hindu-Muslim (or Hindu-animist, or Hindu-Buddhist) debate, the primary issue with any suggestions anyone can provide is the fact of intense syncretization. I've written about this extensively elsewhere, multiple times, so I won't rehash it. What I will mention is that at a village-level there was no discernible difference between Hindus, Muslims, and animists until the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. So at the end of the day any discussion we have will not be completely accurate in nature.

And thus ends my spamming. I have a two hour long drive to look forward to, now.
 
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The Ujjainiya should have their dynasty name either be Paramara, or Ujjainiya (Ujjainiya is a child-house of the Paramara). I'm not sure why you guys decided to name it Buxar. If you don't want to have the country and dynasty names be the same, you can have the country be called Bhojpur and the dynasty be called Ujjainiya.

Also, it would be fun if you could give them claims over Malwa (the Ujjainiyas would have no way to act on this game start, but it would still be a nice piece of flavor to represent their dynastic claims to the land).
 
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I made a map of locations in Garhwal, with a black line in the middle to divide Kumaon and Garhwal. I'll refine it in the future, but I thought I'd just post this first draft in case anybody has feedback.

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1: Badrinath
3: Niti
4: Mana
5: Srinagar
6: Devalgarh
7: Chandpur Garhi
8: Karnaprayag
9: Gartang Gali (Gangotri)
10: Lodan
11: Maya (Haridwar)
12: Rishikesh
13: Doiwala
14: Kotdwar
15: Manglaur
16: Devprayag
17: Kedarnath
18: Kandara Garh
19: Rudraprayag
20: Bangar Garh
21: Aerasu Garhi
22: Yamunotri
23: Mungra Garh
24: Kandrala Garhi
25: Nimga Garh
26: Sankri Garh
27: Raain Garh
28: Jont Garh
29: Vairat Garh
30: Molya Garh
31: Raika Garh
32: Kuili & Kathli Garhs
33: Sangela Garh
34: Bhillang Garh
35: Dhangu Garh
36: Bharpur Garh
37: Thandar Garh
38: Rani Garh
39: Langoor Garh
40: Chaundkot Garh
41: Badalpur Garh
42: Mahab Garh
43: Nagpur Garh
44: Dasholi Garh
45: Badhan Garh
46: Lohba Garh
47: Harsil

I also made a project on Google Earth compiling the locations of medieval sites on Garhwal, maybe it can help: .
 
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I hope you change Yuan's color either to red or at least anything that's not green, because having both of the Asian superpowers of the same color just hurts the eyes.
Personally I vote for it to be blue, or possibly white/grey, which are both colours associated with the Mongol ethnicity. I believe white is specifically associated with the dynasty.
 
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A few final suggestions:

- The location of Husaynabad in Southern Bengal, seems to allude to the mint town of Husaynabad thought to be in the 24 parganas. However most historians now agree it was near Pandua itself, and not next to Satgaon. Please reconsider changing the name of this location. Some suggestions would be the old village names of Sutanuti, Kalikata or the ancient religious location of Kalighat - all of which now are part of the modern city of Kolkata.
-The location of Satgaon should have access to the ocean. I can see the Hoogly delta extend a bit into the lands, would it be possible to extend the delta a bit more inwards so as to make the locations of Satgaon and "Husaynabad" (as named currently) as coastal provinces? This is because in a few centuries within the game's time frame both of them will eventually "become" the port cities of Howrah and Calcutta respectively and played a major role as world ports of the British Empire (though the main port was Haldia, which ingame would be the location of Tamluk - which I think should be split into two, one coastal and one continental). The Diamond Harbor of Kolkata is a major world port playing a great role in trade along the Bay of Bengal.
- This would greatly impact the gameplay in Bengal for both a native player and a coloniser (coughBritaincough) who need to control just 3 locations - Satgaon (future Howrah), "Husaynabad" (future Calcutta) and Tamluk (Future Haldia) to control major trade routes along the Indian Ocean.
- Extending the hoogly delta inwards is a simple and effective solution to bypass the need for navigable rivers which seems to not be a feature in this game.
- Further, the name 'Satgaon' is the Hindi analogue for 'Saptagram'. The sultanate being named in Bengali (Saptagram) but the location in Hindi (Satgaon) feels a bit redundant - so I would suggest naming both Saptagram.

- The province consisting of the locations of Khulna, Kulpi, "Husaynabad", Jaynagar, West & East Sunderbans - should be renamed to Sunderbans in my honest opinion.

View attachment 1190178
Is Husaynabad our future Calcutta? I really didn't know that
 
1. We want to make a chain of events about the travels of Ibn Battuta, so yes.
2. As I mentioned in the DD, a situation, 'The Fall of Delhi'.
3. Currently it's a simple 'Sultanate of Delhi', although we could make it dynamic.
Will you be portraying Muhammad bin Tughlaq as the Eccentric Prince that he was,like how he had shifted the capital from Delhi to Daulatabad(in Deccan) in 1327 and shifted it back to Delhi in 1355,the outcome of which wasn't so good?
 
hi @Pavía @Johan please re check the north eastern province of Itanagar, I am from this place and this should never extend to plains of assam, the lower most location of this provice should not be part of the itanagar province.
It should be location of lakhimpur and in west of lakhimpur the locations should be Narayanpur instead of Itanagar and in north of Lakhimpur you need to add one more location named itanagar.
Also narayanpur will be part if lakhimpur province. The name narayanpur was derived from one of the chutia king.
Also rename the chutia province name to Lakhimpur, historically north eastern bank of brahmaputra had two area, sadiya and lakhimpur and then itanagar on top of lakhimpur(north).
You can rename location of lakhimpur as North Lakhimpur and provice to Lakhimpur. North lakhimpur is actual city inside the much larger Lakhimpur area.
And i dont see the mighty brahmaputra river, is there a reason for it?
Also please represent the world largest river island Majuli, majuli should be in between location of Lakhimpur and location of jorhat.
Also the river brahmapur flowed between the location if lakhimpur and majuli. Bhrahmaputra changed it course later, there will be a river named buradihing between the location of majuli and jorhat,
North of majuli brahmaputra and south of majuli buradihing.
Please add jorhat, it was the last ahom capital city.
Jorhat should be between dergaon and charaideo and also add a location of rangpur in charaideo since it was the seat of ahom king for a long time.
I request you to look into this changes, will be thankful since north eastern region is very underrepresented in many place.
Formal document is very difficult to find since documents etc were introduced properly much later in history here.

This can be handy resource for this region

There also should be more farmland in area of awadh, bhojpur, eastern part bengal and the area between bhojpur and bengal.

IMG_5835.jpeg

This should be rough idea for the location
Green- itanagar
Yellow on north- ziro
Red- lakhimpur
Blue on left- narayanpur
Violet- majuli with Brahmaputra flowing north of it in eu4 timeline
Cyan- jorhat
Yellow on bottom-> dergaon or golaghat

Narayanpur and lakhimpur in one province where itanagar and ziro MUST NOT extend to south.

Also please move assamese culture from Bengal to assam, i understand the motive but this will make people misunderstand more than it is.
Mordern Assamese culture has more tai ahom component than bengali component, put it back in upper assam
 
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@Pavía

North India should have very low development historically as this was the period of the devastation caused due to the Islamic invasions. Historically, from the 1100s to the 1500s, north India would be a largely rural at best semi rural area because of the Delhi Sultans. It was not until the Mughals (especially Akbar) that urbanisation of some degree returned back to northern India. The only regions in northern India one could say would have had a degree of development would be the area of Rajasthan due to the fact that it was still ruled by the native Hindu kings.

Large parts of Southern India on the other hand would be much more developed than Northern India as it was not yet devastated to the extend North India was by the Islamic invasions.
 
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Alright, I'll start with the basic stuff.
Why is Assamese in North Bengal????? I suppose you're trying to represent the Koch-Rajbongshis...so name them Rajbongshis? Never have they been called Assamese, and the fact that it hasn't been changed doesn't really bode well.
@Pavía

Rajbanshi is not a dialect of Bengali. Historically North Bengal is a part of Old Kamarupa and it's people saw themselves as such (even today the Koch-Rajbangshi see themselves associated more with ancient Kamarupa/Pragjyotisha than with Vanga). Much of today's Eastern Bengal was... For a lack of a better word "Bengalified" first during the Mughals (territorially) and later on during the British when a standardised Bengali culture movement was imposed upon the people of today's eastern Bengal bordering the Brahmaputra and Barak valleys.

Historically speaking, the lands east of the Karatoya river should be represented as having closer to Kamarupa and be represented as having been divided into Eastern, middle and Western Kamarupi languages rather than Assamese or Bengali (atleast from North Bengal to the Brahmaputra valley region). Better yet would be to replace Assamese in North Bengal with Kamatapuri culture/language with Assamese being shifted more eastwards in the Brahmaputra valley.

Standardised Assamese today is merely the Kamarupi language spoken in 19th century Jorhat, the last capital of the Ahom kingdom.

Interestingly, both the Koch and Ahom kingdoms saw themselves as fighting over the legacy of Old Kamarupa.
 
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I'm not too sure about the Assamese culture in northern Bengal? It does not even correspond to the region of Assam. Even more so convoluting considering the Ahom people are already represented further to the east more accurately.
Assamese and Kamarupi are generally used interchangeably even today although Kamarupi is most often used by the people of today's lower Assam to refer to themselves other than calling themselves Assamese (generally to refer themselves to the larger whole). But Kamarupi has a pan regional connotation of not just modern day Assamese speakers but also those who speak languages historically descended from Kamarupi languages such as Kamatapuri, Sylheti etc as well as regions that were historically seen by people as part of Old Kamarupa (which interestingly had a distinctive view of itself as having a historical border unlike many kingdoms).

Interestingly, both the Koch and Ahom kingdoms fought for the legacy of Old Kamarupa.

@Pavía please check these.
 
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I believed that the Tamils from Sri Lanka had been brought there by the British Empire for the tea plantations, were they already in 1337?
No. Those are "Indian Tamils". Not all Tamils in Sri Lanka are " indian Tamils". The Tamils and Sinhalese have interacted and intermingled with each other ever since the founding of the first historically verifiable kingdom in Sri Lanka (founded by prince Vijaya).
 
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