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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.png

As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.jpg


Locations:
Locations.jpg

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Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

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Areas:
Areas.jpg

The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
Development.jpg

A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg


Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

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Cultures 3.jpg
Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

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India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

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India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
Population.jpg

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India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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Elephants and Ivory are different resources. The former is for Asian elephants and can be used to create elephant-based military units. Ivory is used for African elephants, which can't be used for military units, and are only an economic resource.
I will again bother you dear developers by proposing a regional division of spices, possibly middle eastern, african, indian, moluccan, mesoamerican and chinese. Different cultures and/or even religions might require different kind of spices, and the rush to the fabled "spice islands" in the east would be justified, as the moluccan spices would be available basically only there at game start.

Another question: how will appearing raw materials (such as with the columbian exchange or with coal) be addressed? Or is it too early to ask?
 
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Mahayana had diverged far too much by this period to be considered a single religion. I am not too familiar with its exact manifestation in India at this time but the rise of Vajrayana practices in India and Tibetan Buddhism's unique doctrines make those very distinct from East Asian Mahayana. I've argued in a separate thread why China shouldn't be Buddhist but that's a different topic for another Tinto Maps.
 
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Seeing India reminds me of an issue I persnally have.
For example, in EU4 the Indian AI just gobbles all the smaller tags pretty early on, same thing happens in Imperator.
I know you already said that Dehli is likely to collapse, but will be anything stopping the creation of big ugly blobs like in these games?
They said multiple times blobbing will be hard, in this very DD they say Delhi will have a hard time to stay alive because of the amount of pops and cultures in its borders, this apply to any blob country.
 
Hm. I think giving them "Kochi Hinduism" or some such should be sufficient, with emphasis on nature worship and such. For the East Bengal animists, subsuming them into the Manasa-Chandi Devi-Shakti cults should be good enough.
 
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Yay for "Telugu" being spelled right this time!

I was hoping you wouldn't use the term "Vijayanagar Empire". As far as I'm aware, it was made up by British historians because they were afraid calling it by its actual self-designation, "Karnata Sāmrājya" (Carnata Empire) would offend Telugus (as far as I'm aware, it doesn't).
To be fair, you can say this about a lot of other Indian empires, many, like the Delhi Sultanate just called themselves "Empire of India/Hindustan", as did the Mughals, but in that case there's some gameplay interest in having those two tags be separate and thus one has to go with historiographical names, there's not much reason to not just call Vijayanagara "Karnata". (you could feasibly make the Delhi Sultanate and Mughals one tag, after all I think the Mughals only started calling themselves "Emperors of India" after they conquered Delhi, but that's another debate, especially if you want Mughals to have their own mechanics like in EU4)

In the more mechanic side, will the different varnas be represented (within the estate system or otherwise)?

Lastly, are you guys taking feedback for Tibet yet? I just wanted to point out your romanizations are all over the place. It seems like you're following THLSPT which is a fine system for phonetic transcription of modern Standard Tibetan, but sometimes you show accents, sometimes you don't? I'd recommend using either the Wylie system (most prefered by linguists) or Tibetan Pinyin (system used by the Chinese government).

Comparison:
Tibetan: དབུས་གཙང་། | བོན་
THLSP: Ü-Tsang | Bön
Wylie: Dbus-Gtsang | Bon
Pinyin: Wü-Zang | Pön

As you can see the Wylie system uses a system of 1-to-1 correspondence with written Tibetan, which looks weird nowadays but actually reflects historical pronunciation quite well (and there's the advantage you can easily transcribe any Tibetan text without knowing the phonology). The Pinyin version is rather a more simple phonetic transliteration based on Mandarin pinyin orthography and the modern Lhasa accent.
 
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i'm the only one who noticed that map quality is massively improved since the first tintos?
really great job!
When will you decide what to do with Venice? Will you make a dedicated post?
Thanks for everything!
 
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Here's my old RGO write up:
My primary sources here will be Ain-i-Akbari by Abul Fazl (specifically from this page onwards) and Husain Shahi Bengal by Momtazur Rahman Tarafdar.
Ain-i-Akbari:
(ALL PLACES BELOW ARE MUGHAL SARKARS i.e. PROVINCES, NOT LOCATIONS)
The most obvious good is rice - practically all the farmlands should be dedicated to the cultivation of rice. Also in similarly large quantities should be fish - primarily freshwater, though seawater fish is not uncommon in coastal areas. Moreover, wheat and sturdy grains would likely be rarely grown here. [p. 122 "Their staple food is rice and fish ; wheat, barley and the like not being esteemed wholesome."]
[p. 123]
It is mentioned that long pepper grew in the Mahmudabad tract (North Nadia, North Jessore and West Faridpur), so spices seem like a fitting RGO there.
Khalifatabad/Bagerhat (South Jessore and West Bakarganj) possessed herds of wild elephant - so elephants, ivory and lumber as a good seem ideal. Well, these goods should only be in the jungle/forest provinces and not the urban/farmland ones.
Bakla/Bagla "extends along the sea shore. The fort is surrounded by woods."
[p. 124]
In Ghoraghat (South Rangpur, South-East Dinajpur and North Bogra), silk was produced. AFAIK however, this is silk cloth, while silk fabric was produced from silkworms in Murshidabad-Malda-Rajshahi Belt. Also, fruits were grown.
In Barbakabad (mainly Rajshahi, South-west Bogra and South-east Malda) "Gangajal" cloth was manufactured and oranges were grown.
Both Ain and Husain Shahi Bengal mention an iron mine in Bazuha/Bazoha (Partly Rajshahi, Bogra, Pabna and Dhaka). Moreover, they had "extensive forests which furnish long and thick timbers of which masts are made".
Sonargaon was famous for its cloth manufacture.
[p. 125]
Sylhet supplied eunuchs, oranges, china-root and lumber.
Chatgaon (Chittagong) was an important port city, surrounded by woods.
Sharifabad (mainly Burdwan) was famous for its livestock: "[In Sharifabad] is a beautiful species of cattle, white in colour, and of a fine build : like camels they are laden kneeling down and carry fifteen mans of weight. It is noted for the Barbary goat and for fighting cocks."
Satgaon had two major ports at Satgaon and Hugli. It was also famous for its pomegranates.
The most interesting thing I found: "In the Sarkar of Madaran (Bankura, Vishnupur, South-east Burdwan) is a place called Harpah in which there is a diamond mine producing chiefly very small stones."

Husain Shahi Bengal:
Clay was a very important resource; Bengal lacked major stone sources, so palaces and forts were usually made of brick-clay - the major source being Birbhum, Bankura and Purulia.
Bengal exported rice, wheat, cotton clothes, silk , sugar [p. 141], "lacca" or cochineal i.e. dyes, myrobolans, long pepper and frankincense. [p. 145]
Bengal imported salt, diamonds, emeralds, pearls and other gems. [p. 143]
Major industrial products included cloth, refined sugar, jewellery, steel guns, cutlery, stone-carvings, woven-silk, bark-paper and shipbuilding. [p. 147 to p. 150]
Cotton WAS grown in Bengal; however the exact location was not mentioned.

Further Resources:
George Watt’s Dictionary of the Economic Products of India, says: "Cotton was formerly grown in the Dacca and Mymensingh districts, in a large tract of land…very well suited the plant. The cotton raised here…was the finest known in the world and formed the material out of which the Dacca…muslin was manufactured."
The Bengali work Kavikankana-Chandi says, "Boats were built with the timbers of jackfruit, piyal, sal and other trees.’ It further says, ‘Some boats were hundred yards long and twenty yards wide’. The prows of the vessels had the faces of various animals carved on them and decorated with valuable stones, ivory, silver and even gold."
In 1521 CE the Portuguese found ‘extensive sugar plantations’ while travelling from Chittagong to Gaur. This is consistent with the declarations that Bengal was the largest sugar producer in India.

Now I'll add to this using further research.
While coming from Chittagong, Britto not only saw high quality sugar at practically throw-away prices, but he saw extensive sugar plantations and other fruits around Gaur.

I went from Bengala into the country of Couche (Koch), which lieth 25. dayes iourny Northwards from Tanda.2 The king is a Gentile, his name is Suckel Counse : x his countrey is great, and lieth not far from Cauchin China : for they say they haue pepper from thence. The port is called Cacchegate (Kochighatt?) (not pinpointed yet)
From thence I returned to Hugeli, which is the place where the Portugals keep in the country of Bengala which standeth in 23. degrees of Northerly latitude, and standeth a league from Satagan : they cal it Porto Piqueno.1 We went through the wildernes, because the right way was full of thieues, where we passed the countrey of Gouren, where we found but few villages, but almost all wildernes, & saw many buffes, swine & deere, grasse longer then a ma, and very many Tigers.
From Chatigan in Bengala, I came to Bacola (Bakla) ; the king whereof is a Gentile, a man very well disposed and delighted much to shoot in a gun. His countrey is very great and fruitful, and hath store of Rice, much cotton cloth, and cloth of silke. The houses be very faire and high builded, the streetes large, the people naked, except a litle cloth about their waste. The women weare great store of siluer hoopes about their neckes and armes, and their legs are ringed with siluer and copper, and rings made of elephants teeth.
Sinnergan is a towne sixe leagues from Serrepore, where there is the best and finest cloth made of cotton that is in all India. The chiefe king of all these countries is called Isacan, and he is chiefe of all the other kings, and is a great friend to all Christians. The houses here, as they be in the most part of India, are very litle, and couered with strawe, and haue a fewe mats round about the wals, and the doore to keepe out the Tygers and the Foxes.
Our old friend Fitch is back!

The rice and grain ripen twice in a year. The husked and unhusked rice is slender and long; they mostly have small red rice. Unhusked rice, wheat, sesame, all kinds of beans, glutinous millet, ginger, mustard, onions, garlic, gourds, and vegetables—all these they have. For fruits, they have bananas. For wines, they have three or four varieties—coconut-wine, rice-wine, tree-wine, and chiao-chang!? wine; they are made in all sorts of ways; [and] mostly they have distilled wines. Tea is not sold in the markets; [and] men use pin-lang" for entertaining people. The market-streets contain all kinds of shops—bathing-establishments, wine-shops, food-shops, sweetmeat-shops, and other such shops—all these they have.Mulberry trees, wild mulberry-trees, silk-worms, and cocoons—all these they have; [but] can make only fine silks, embroidered silk kerchiefs, and coarse silks; they do not understand how to make silk-floss.There is a kind of white paper which is also made from tree-bark; it is glossy and smooth—like deer-skin.
- Ma Huan

I come to the third mine, which is the most ancient of all, and is situated in the Kingdom of Bengal. You may call it by the name of Soumelpour (Lohardaga, Jharkhand) which is a large town near to which the diamonds are found...
- Tavernier
I'll work on an updated rgo map based on this after I finish up the locations.
 
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I hope the AIs will behave differently than those in EU4, they were only meant to conquer, the countries were so big and powerful that no Europeans could try to colonize them. Will we have specific mechanics for that ? Will India remain divided into dozens of kingdoms naturally ?
 
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I hope the AIs will behave differently than those in EU4, they were only meant to conquer, the countries were so big and powerful that no Europeans could try to colonize them. Will we have specific mechanics for that ? Will India remain divided into dozens of kingdoms naturally ?
 
As far as breaking up animism in the region, here are some ideas to get started:

Munda cultures (Santal, Ho) and Oraon: Sarnaism
Bodo-Kachari peoples (Bodo, Dimasa, Rabha, Tiwa, Garo): Bathouism (specific to the Bodo, but seems to be the most well documented and the groups are culturally related)
Khasi culture: Niam Khasi
Tani culture: Donyi-Polo
Mizo culture: Mizo religion
 
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Really looking forward to getting to know more about the impacts of culture and religion. If it's somewhat manageable to manage many different cultures of different languages then Bharat/Hindustan will be an absolute monster.
 
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