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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.png

As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.jpg


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations 2.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg
Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg

Provinces 3.jpg

Provinces 4.jpg

Areas:
Areas.jpg

The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
Development.jpg

A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg


Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Cultures 2.jpg

Cultures 3.jpg
Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

Religions 2.jpg

Religions 3.jpg
India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Raw Materials 4.jpg
India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
Population.jpg

Population 2.jpg

Population 3.jpg

Population 4.jpg

Population 5.jpg

Population 10.jpg

Population 9.jpg

Population 6.jpg

Population 7.jpg

Population 8.jpg

India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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No, I feel representing the Rajbongshis is better than having a vague "Assamese" culture in North Bengal. Do they not deserve accurate representation?
I'm against that as well considering the Rajbongshis didn't really arise until the LATE 1800s, almost out of the game's timeframe - as an attempt by upper class tribal individuals to legitimise their Hindu Kshatriya Caste, by invoking their "raj" ancestry of the Koch rulers.



I genuinely think a singular Bengali culture would be fine with admixtures from Newari, Koch and Magahi people in the north. All the remaining differences among the people will be perfectly represented by religion lol.
 
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Are there Saurashtrian pops in south India?

Any SoPs in the area? Maybe on the Andaman or Nicobar island groups? Would love to fight some helicopters playing as the Sentinelese :p
 
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Hinduism to my knowledge is more of a family of religions than one blob so probably should be broken up

How will you handle sikhism? It was a bit lackluster in eu4
 
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I'm against that as well considering the Rajbongshis didn't really arise until the LATE 1800s, almost out of the game's timeframe - as an attempt by upper class tribal individuals to legitimise their Hindu Kshatriya Caste, by invoking their "raj" ancestry of the Koch rulers
Well, yeah - the name itself is new. But the Kochi people aren't. They're not really Bengali or Assamese, they speak Bengali now, yes, but their "dialect" is still unique and would probably classify as a language in 1337.
 
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Well, yeah - the name itself is new. But the Kochi people aren't. They're not really Bengali or Assamese, they speak Bengali now, yes, but their "dialect" is still unique and would probably classify as a language in 1337.
Yeah but Koch culture already exists on the map, they can just... extend it a bit. Rajbongshis shouldn't be a separate culture as they didn't arise yet.
 
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Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Trangula, now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
View attachment 1189937
As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
View attachment 1189938

Locations:
View attachment 1189939
Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
View attachment 1189943

Areas:
View attachment 1189947
The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
View attachment 1189948
View attachment 1189949
View attachment 1189950
Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
View attachment 1189951
A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
View attachment 1189952

Cultures:
View attachment 1189954
Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
View attachment 1189956
India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1189959
India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
View attachment 1190014
There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
View attachment 1189963

India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
Will there be formable cultures? Like, could we form some kind of Indo-Iranian culture if conquering India as Iranian group people? Or can we rule India with an Iranian dynasty? I think that in a game that puts such a great detail into cultures, culture of Muslim empires in india should be portrayed better than just the culture of locals of the region where their capital is, like it was in eu4.


Or maybe Dehlavi is supposed to be this Indo Iranian one, considering it is a Persianised word?
 
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Now that we're getting into the spice trade areas, I'll mention that there should probably be a distinction between different types of spices. Certain types were only available in tropical areas, and should be differentiated from those closer to Europe-- especially since we have like 4 types of grain, and dates (the fruit) are their own good lol. Just feels weird we have so much granularity with some goods, and then we get hit with a unitary SPICE rgo.
Not sure how they could be subdivided, 'sweet' vs 'hot' spices? 'tropical' spices? or genuinely just cinnamon/cloves being on their own

Also... elephants here but not in Africa?
 
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I don't really like how the Maldives look. Obviously it's impossible to portray them correctly but at least make them look more like atolls by adding water in the middle.
 
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yeah, there sure be for sure much more Islamic pops north&northwest of Tapi river. Over a century of systematic purges of Hindus and Buddists by Delhi sultanate at it's peak, while fightining a long bloody war with Mongols and sufferering constant raid by other Turkic tribes, did it's thing. There is a reason why Development map mode looks like it does....

But biggest problem with the map are RGO-s.

Where is Sugarcane????
India was huge Sugarcane producers and had refined sugar crysalization methods since ancient times.
Or is sugarcane considered a Spices?
 
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Will the game discourage countries from conquering and keeping the 'difficult' places like the Himalayas or the Gondi regions in central/east India? Like how the borders of Delhi at the start basically ignore these areas
Terrain has an impact on the control you can exert, yes, in two different ways. First, it impacts the Proximity, which is the base for the calculation of the control a country has over a location. And secondly, it impacts the development in each location, which also impacts the Proximity.

I think that showing the tooltip for Proximity Impact on a certain location will help to understand this:
image (22).png
 
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Alright, I'll start with the basic stuff.
Why is Assamese in North Bengal????? I suppose you're trying to represent the Koch-Rajbongshis...so name them Rajbongshis? Never have they been called Assamese, and the fact that it hasn't been changed doesn't really bode well.
The Assamese moved from North Bengal to current Assam during the period, that's why.
 
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Alexander Cunningham thought Varendra as vast land amidst of Ganga and Mahananda in West, Karatowa in East Padma in South and Cooch Behar and Terair egion in the North. On the other hand the Muslim historians of medieval India denoted Varendra as the region Eastern part of Ganga and east of Lakshmanavati.6 Since the dawn of history today’s so called North Bengal is greatly known in mainstream Indian history. Akshaykumar Maitreya wrote regarding North Bengal’s relation with post-Buddhist periodic India in this way that North Bengal at the time became well known in all over India with the fabrication of Buddhist fame. 7 Up to 1576 A.D. North Bengal was the centre of political life of Bengal.
- Geo-Historical Profile of North Bengal

Why would "the centre of political life of Bengal" be populated mainly by anachronistic Assamese culture?
 
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Terrain has an impact on the control you can exert, yes, in two different ways. First, it impacts the Proximity, which is the base for the calculation of the control a country has over a location. And secondly, it impacts the development in each location, which also impacts the Proximity.

I think that showing the tooltip for Proximity Impact on a certain location will help to understand this:
View attachment 1190033
Will there be a specific formable culture to portray the culture of Indo-Iranian Muslim rulers of india? I dont think giving them the culture of locals is exactly correct...
 
The Assamese moved from North Bengal to current Assam during the period, that's why.
And we're saying they did not. The Assamese did not migrate, they were formed by the confluence of the Ahoms, Bodos and other tribes of the Brahmaputra valley. Which source says the Assamese migrated from North Bengal?
 
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