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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
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As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
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Locations:
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Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
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Areas:
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The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
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Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
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A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
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Cultures:
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Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
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India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
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India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
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India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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Sorry for the 100th question of the day, but are the Zo people represented by a society of pops? Because their locations are uncolonized. Moreover, what's the name of the nation of the Meitei people? It's not visible on the political map.
 
Hinduism and Theravada are too similar in color to be distinguished (I'm red-green color blind) and the color bleed effect for the terrain map-modes can obscure the words of especially dark colours like the ones used for mountains and it can make the location map-mode too noisy to properly read.
 
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The Assamese moved from North Bengal to current Assam during the period, that's why.
Assam is located in the centre of the land route that connects eastern Kamboj to western Kashgar and northernChina to southern Ceylon. Indeed, Assam, particularly the Brahmaputra valley, served as a sort of connectingroad between India and Southeast Asia. Various groups arrived in Assam from various directions. Starting fromthe west from the north and east came the Caucasians and the Mongoloids. Austrio-Asians, Mongoloids, Negritos, Dravidians, Alpines, Indo-Mongoloids, Tibeto-Burmese, and Aryans arrived in Assam in waves. The unique fusion of all of these groups resulted in the formation of a new composite culture known as Assamese.
The Assamese people cultural background dates back nearly 2000 years, when the first cultural assimilationoccurred, with Austrio-Asian and Tibeto-Burman as the major components. Assam is home to numerous tribes,each with its own set of traditions, culture, dress, and way of life. Most tribes have their own languages, butAssamese is the state's primary language. As a result, Assamese culture is traditionally hybrid. The people ofAssam are a mingling of various racial stocks; including Mongoloid, Indo-Burmese, Indo-Iranian, and Aryanare the four major ethnic groups. The Assamese culture is a rich and exotic tapestry of all these races thatevolved over time through assimilation
A HISTORICAL PROSPECTIVE OF ASSAMESE SOCIETY, CULTURE AND LITERATURE, Dr. Nayan Kalita.
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Udayon Misra. “Immigration and Identity Transformation in Assam.” Economic and Political Weekly, vol. 34, no. 21, 1999, pp. 1264–71. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/4407987. Accessed 20 Sept. 2024.
 
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Hinduism to my knowledge is more of a family of religions than one blob so probably should be broken up

How will you handle sikhism? It was a bit lackluster in eu4
1. Hinduism is internally divided through its mechanics, we'll show that in a future Tinto Talks.
2. It will spawn through a Situation, and we have designed a full set of mechanics for it, which are different from EU4.
 
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I count at least 29 Sugar provinces at a first glance. How many would you think are needed?
That many?
That sounds a bit more reasonable for sure.
How many are needed? Depends on two things, is there Sugarcane farm (i would guess there will be one) building, and probably even Sugarcane plantation building in later ages.
So the other question is at which historical number of sugercane rgos would it start to hurt gameplay?
 
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Will there be formable cultures? Like, could we form some kind of Indo-Iranian culture if conquering India as Iranian group people? Or can we rule India with an Iranian dynasty? I think that in a game that puts such a great detail into cultures, culture of Muslim empires in india should be portrayed better than just the culture of locals of the region where their capital is, like it was in eu4.


Or maybe Dehlavi is supposed to be this Indo Iranian one, considering it is a Persianised word?
Too early to answer this, sorry. But each country has a primary culture, which can also be different to that of its ruler.
 
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Now that we're getting into the spice trade areas, I'll mention that there should probably be a distinction between different types of spices. Certain types were only available in tropical areas, and should be differentiated from those closer to Europe-- especially since we have like 4 types of grain, and dates (the fruit) are their own good lol. Just feels weird we have so much granularity with some goods, and then we get hit with a unitary SPICE rgo.
Not sure how they could be subdivided, 'sweet' vs 'hot' spices? 'tropical' spices? or genuinely just cinnamon/cloves being on their own

Also... elephants here but not in Africa?
Elephants and Ivory are different resources. The former is for Asian elephants and can be used to create elephant-based military units. Ivory is used for African elephants, which can't be used for military units, and are only an economic resource.
 
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yeah, there sure be for sure much more Islamic pops north&northwest of Tapi river. Over a century of systematic purges of Hindus and Buddists by Delhi sultanate at it's peak, while fightining a long bloody war with Mongols and sufferering constant raid by other Turkic tribes, did it's thing. There is a reason why Development map mode looks like it does....

But biggest problem with the map are RGO-s.

Where is Sugarcane????
India was huge Sugarcane producers and had refined sugar crysalization methods since ancient times.
Or is sugarcane considered a Spices?
That's Sugar, and there's plenty (just checked in-game, and India is the region in the world with the most Sugar sources).
 
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Should harbour provinces have more development? I'd assume trade and trade routes would have a positive impact.
No, harbors impact a different set of values, but no development.
 
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The Assamese moved from North Bengal to current Assam during the period, that's why.
Another significant feature of this epoch is the migration of Mongoloids into Assam. They ruled Assam for 600 years and left an indelible mark on the state's history. Assamese people are fundamentally liberal, and one notable example is the 'assamisation' of the Ahoms. Between 1215 and 1230 AD, the Shan prince Sukapha, the founder of the Ahom kingdom, established a strong foothold in Assam as well as 1228 AD The Ahom rulers1509 intermarried and intermixed, creating a new blood that could be called Assamese.
Further source: A HISTORICAL PROSPECTIVE OF ASSAMESE SOCIETY, CULTURE ANDLITERATURE by Dr. Nayan Kalita
 
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Elephants and Ivory are different resources. The former is for Asian elephants and can be used to create elephant-based military units. Ivory is used for African elephants, which can't be used for military units, and are only an economic resource.
Shouldn't ivory exist in Asia too?
 
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I am still not sure about the Term "deep ocean"
DeepOcean_HighSee.png


Wouldn't "high seas" be more fitting nautical term?
You could have: Inland Sea, Coastal Seas, Open Seas and High Seas.

Deep ocean sounds more lika a diving expression.
unless the game involves Submarines :D
 
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