Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[Roger Corominas]

Can Japan rush exploration and colonize the New World or are there mechanics in place that make this difficult?

The size of the Pacific makes it difficult.

 

[perceval350]

There are events for that, yes.

Is it only through events or is spreading christianity in foreign countries also a mechanic ?

 

[Roger Corominas]

1. Will Sengoku period have unique flavor and content ?
2. Can Daimyos have vassals, and are they visible on the map ?

1. Yes
2. Yes, same as with any other country.

 

[Goblin Slave]

How do you guys plan to account for the change in RGOs overtime? For example during this period of Japanese history cotton is largely limited as a luxury good for the wealthy, but it started to be widely grown in the late fifteenth century, and by 1700 had become the standard fabric for Japanese commoners, replacing hemp. There’s a similar story for sugar production in Ryukyu as well, it was a huge producer for Japan, but sugarcane production was only introduced in 1374.

https://samurai-archives.com/wiki/Sugar

Cotton - SamuraiWiki

samurai-archives.com

Sugar cane was first introduced into the Ryûkyû Islands in 1374. It soon became one of the Ryûkyû Kingdom's chief exports / tribute goods. Between sugar obtained from the kingdom, and sugar grown in the Amami Islands (taken from the kingdom and under the direct control of Satsuma han since 1609), Satsuma served as the chief source of sugar in Japan throughout the Edo period.


Cotton was first introduced to Japan in the late Nara or early Heian period, but only began to be grown in any significant sense in the late 15th century. By the end of the 17th century, it was the most standard fabric for commoner clothing, replacing ramie.

 

[CorneliusBottomly]

Can we see the town/city map?

 

[Wildrake]

Don't wanna be that guy but aren't some places kinda of too dense? Tsushima which is 700km2 with 2k people has 2 locations, which is more location density than in all of Europe. Japan in general has highest province density in the world right now

 

[Old_Sealand]

It's specific for Japan, so that the country breaks apart and there's a proper Sengoku Jidai.

How exactly does that Snegoku Jidai work and country breaking apart?
Will it be like some disaster that ticks up slowly? Or some own form of mechanic? With some form of support and opposition tied together with the Samurais getting too much power and some other stuff I'm unable to think of currently?

 

[Roger Corominas]

I dunno if this map us accurate but it seems the location sizes are wrong
View attachment 1206951
View attachment 1206954

Some adaptation was indeed needed to be able to represent all three.

 

[Tercio Soldier]

Can you play as the Southern Court, or is it more of an allegiance and mechanic?

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is Korea's capital Kaesong? If yes is there any event for the movement of it to Namgyeong/Seoul?

The capital is indeed Kaesong, and there's currently no event for the movement of it to Namgyeong.

 

[izadirad1]

I wonder what kind of trophies Japan will have? I hope we get some tokusatsu themed trophies. its a dying art form. Like if a event could mention a large dragon off at sea glowing blue, id be a happy camper. or if Okinawa had a mention of a kaiju lion statue protecting it.

just kidding, I know thats not gonna happen but I know some of the devs watch Godzilla based on their comments over the years

 

[Hwann]

The Kanto Plain was developed from the Tokugawa Shogunate period in the 17th century. Even when you think about the Kamakura Shogunate, only the Kamakura Province and its surroundings are high, and the Kanto Plain area is only a swamp that was not cleared at that time. In 1337, It is likely that the development will be lower than that of Kyushu and other japan's regions.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Can the Ouchi clan revive Baekje?

Not really, although there's mention that they descend from it.

 

[Roger Corominas]

How will the game represent the Northern and Southern Courts? PC is set at the start of this period

Each court is an independent tag at start (also an extraterritorial country), and there's specific content for the Nanbokucho.

 

[echuu_shen_josh]

I hope that there will be substantial representation of Buddhism in Japanese religion mechanics. No formal distinction between Shinto and Buddhist practice was made until the Meiji restoration, after PC's end date.
Also, if Japan is divided into 3 cultures, then England definitely should have English culture broken up, as has been previously discussed.
The extraterritorial Daimyo are very interesting! I suspect there are many countries around the world, though, with similar nobility situations. This feels a bit like a half-implementation of CK3's representation of states like the HRE; I hope these kind of internal complexities are represented consistently throughout the world map.

 

[tinto²]

Feedback on the Population of Goryeo

First of all, I'm not an English speaker, so please understand that English sentences may be awkward.

The population of Goryeo in 1337 shown in the image above is 2.509 million.

However, this 2.509 million is a big difference from the population of this period that today's Korean scholars estimate.

First, because there are no accurate records of the population during the Goryeo period, it is necessary to estimate the Goryeo population by back-calculating from the population figures of the Joseon period.

Regarding the population of the Joseon Dynasty, scholars have estimated that at the founding of Joseon (1392) the population was either about 5.54 million or in the range of 6.71 to 7.5 million.

The figure of 5.54 million at the founding of Joseon was first proposed by Kwon Tae-hwan and Shin Yong-ha in their work [Results from Research Using Demographic Methods] – [A Temporary Theory on Population Estimates of the Joseon Dynasty(Dec. 1977)].

This assertion became the most widely known in Korea and has since been regarded by scholars as an essential reference for understanding the population history of the Joseon period.

Next, the estimate of 6.71–7.5 million was proposed by Lee Young-koo and Lee Ho-cheol in [Results from Research on Agrarian Economic History] – [The Estimation of Population in the Choson Dynasty (Dec. 1988)] and by Lee Young-koo and Yoo Byung-gyu in [A Study of Population and Agricultural Productivity in the Early Joseon Dynasty (2004)].

In particular, under the assumption that a gradual increase in population is common during the transition from a pre-modern to a modern society, they criticized that Kwon Tae-hwan and Shin Yong-ha’s estimate of an early Joseon population growth rate of 0.47% was too high while the later growth rate of 0.21% was too low, and instead they estimated the early Joseon population growth rate to be between 0.15% and 0.2%.

Moreover, they presented the increasing population pressure on land and the corresponding agricultural output in both the early and later Joseon periods as key evidence.

“The relationship between land and population in early Joseon shows that population pressure on land steadily increased over time. In 1550, there were 1.99 people per hectare, which rose to 2.35 people in 1650, 3.21 people in 1725, and finally reached 3.77 people by 1875. This indicates that as time progressed into late Joseon, population pressure on land intensified significantly, doubling over a period of approximately 300 years from 1550 to 1875.”

“The following <Table 2> illustrates the trends in land productivity during the Joseon Dynasty. By dividing the dynasty into eight periods starting from 1444, when land productivity estimates are available, the productivity per 10 ares of land changed as follows:

1444: 21.13 du

1600–1650: 15.85 du

1700–1750: 25.3 du

1750–1800: 26.6 du

1800–1850: 30.1 du

1918–1922: 28.3–32.6 du


Land productivity showed an increasing trend during the late Joseon period. Using 1444 as a baseline, land productivity in 1918–1922 is estimated to have increased by approximately 34% to 54%.”

"A typical example of the wide variation in results due to differences in interpretation of the same data is the determination of the population size during the Joseon Dynasty. First of all, the study by Kwon Tae-hwan and Shin Yong-ha (1977), which has been relied upon and cited by many scholars to this day, characterized the population of the Joseon Dynasty as 5.54 million.

However, using <Table 1> above and other sources, I estimated the population to be between 6.71 and 7.5 million. Although this numerical difference may seem slight, the resulting discrepancy is quite significant. Kwon Tae-hwan and Shin Yong-ha’s (1977) study underestimates the early period’s population size, which in turn leads to a considerably higher estimated growth rate in the later period. Their study estimated the population at the outbreak of the Imjin War in 1591 to be 13.73 million. As a result, they calculated the overall population growth rate of the Joseon Dynasty (1392–1591) as 0.47%, which is higher than the rate for the late Joseon period (1639–1910) of about 0.21%. In contrast, the authors estimate the early Joseon population at 6.71–7.5 million—about 1.2–2 million higher than the 5.54 million given by Kwon Tae-hwan and Shin Yong-ha (1977). Furthermore, the population in 1591 is estimated at about 9.33 to 10.12 million, roughly 4 million lower than their estimate. Consequently, the overall population growth rate for the Joseon Dynasty is calculated at 0.19%, which is lower than the 0.27% estimated for the late Joseon period."

Thus, they argued that the early Joseon population growth rate was 0.15–0.20%, lower than both the 0.338% estimated for the 17th–18th centuries (1639–1810) and the 0.176–0.265% for the later Joseon period (1639–1910).

Next, here is an evaluation of the various population estimates by recent Korean scholarship.

"Before examining the class composition of farmers in the early Joseon period, it is necessary to understand the population and agricultural labor force of the time. First, the population at the beginning of the Joseon Dynasty (1392) is estimated to have been around 5.55 million, and a study has suggested that the population growth rate during the early Joseon period was an exceptionally high figure of approximately 0.47%, unprecedented in pre-modern societies. In contrast, more recent research estimates that the population in 1392 was about 7.5 million, which increased to 10.12 million by the 25th year of King Seonjo's reign (1592), with a growth rate estimated at 0.15–0.2%."
[Excerpt from Korean History (1993–2003) – Volume 27 excerpt]

"Rigorous historical demographic studies on the Joseon Dynasty have only just begun, but the general outline and trends of the population during this period can be captured through general population history research. The main points are as follows: From the founding of Joseon (1392) to the Imjin War (1592), the population generally increased. In the early Joseon period, the population level was approximately 6 to 7 million, and it showed a peak increase around the mid-16th century. At that time, the population is estimated to have been around 9 to 10 million. The population, which steadily increased until the mid-16th century, then reached a plateau. This population level of approximately 10 million was likely the maximum that early Joseon's agriculture, centered on dry-field farming, could sustain."
[Excerpt from Korean Culture History (2001–2011) – Volume 26 excerpt]

These materials were excerpted from [Korean History (1993–2003)] and [Korean Culture History (2001–2011)], publications of the National History Compilation Committee of the Ministry of Education in Korea.

In summary, based on the above opinions, contemporary Korean academia tends to place more weight on the estimate of 6.71–7.5 million at the founding of Joseon—as proposed by Lee Young-koo and Lee Ho-cheol in [The Estimation of Population in the Choson Dynasty (Dec. 1988)] and by Lee Young-koo and Yoo Byung-gyu in [A Study of Population and Agricultural Productivity in the Joseon Dynasty (2004)].

Personally, I also hold in high regard the estimate from [Results from Research on Agrarian Economic History (6.71–7.5 million)], as it comprehensively analyzes the socio-economic changes in both the early and later periods of Joseon.

Therefore, taking the minimum (6.71 million), median (7.10 million), and maximum (7.5 million) figures from the [Results from Research on Agrarian Economic History (6.71–7.5 million)] estimate—and referring to the passage in Lee Tae-jin’s paper [On the Generation of Factors Contributing to Population Growth in Late Goryeo and the Development of Local Administrative Systems (Aug. 1988)] stating
"The population growth rate during the Goryeo Dynasty was around 0.1%, remaining within the levels of ancient and medieval societies."—if we back-calculate from 1392 at a growth rate of 0.1% to the year 1337, we can estimate that in 1337 the population was approximately:

1337
• Minimum: 6.35 million
• Median: 6.72 million
• Maximum: 7.10 million

Thank you for reading. (Edited February 12, 2025)
+++
[Or it could be 6 to 7.5 million, another estimate of the academic population of the Goryeo Dynasty.] -
[https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...october-japan-and-korea.1710914/post-29963965]
+++
[Feedback Reconstructing the Location and Provinces of the Korean Peninsula] - [https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...october-japan-and-korea.1710914/post-29969736]
+++
[Feedback on the Northeastern Region of Goryeo (Jurchen Tribes)] -
[https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...october-japan-and-korea.1710914/post-30085315]



Thank you.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Here’s some known tea producing locations from the 14th century, from William Wayne Farris’ book on the history of Japanese tea.

Amazon.com

The habit-forming beverage, now sweeter and tastier than ever, pros- pered within this decentralized context. Beginning around 1350, a bud- ding tea industry began to emerge. Different regions of Japan competed against each other with their own unique brands of tea:
Of the famous tea mountains of our dynasty, Toganoo is the best. Ninnaji, Daigoji, Uji, Hamuro [in Yamato], Hannyaji [in Yamato], and Kannōji [in Tanba]: these are next. In addition, Muroo in Yamato, Yashima in Iga, Kawai in Ise, Kiyomi in Suruga, and Kawagoe in Musashi—all these are specially mentioned throughout the realm. The famous places at Ninnaji and Yamato and Iga compare to the tea fields here and there just like agate to trash. Then, too, Toganoo compares to Ninnaji and Daigoji like gold to lead.61
This quotation, taken from a source completed during the mid-fourteenth century, lists the most famous tea production centers in Japan. While the most delicious tea apparently still came from Yamato and Yamashiro, it is notable that tea drinkers could also find the tasty beverage in Tanba, Iga, Ise, Suruga, and Musashi.
-

These named places may have been the best, but tea patches were also located “here and there” throughout the realm. Other records dating to the period 1340–1400 describe fields in Saidaiji and Hamuro in Yamato, Yamashina (2), Uji (2), and Saga in Yamashiro, Kii (3), Settsu (3), Tanba (3), Izumi (2), Mino and Shimōsa (3).62 By the 1350s, tea was being cultivated, processed, and consumed widely throughout the Kinai, central Honshu, and the Kanto plain. As one writer of the 1300s put it, “new tea flows unexpectedly throughout the world.”63 Outstanding brand-name centers of tea had multiplied with the shift to a more regional political and eco- nomic structure, and would become an essential ingredient in the rise of a consumer society much later.
With many different brands competing against one another, tea was on its way to becoming big business, as is implied in this incident dated to the first half of the fourteenth century:

Thank you, we will take a look at it.

 

[matfer13]

Each court is an independent tag at start (also an extraterritorial country), and there's specific content for the Nanbokucho.

What about the clans, are they vassals of the Ashikaga, indipendent or vassals of the courts?

 

[Goblin Slave]

Some information about Japanese pearls, they were rather well known for their wealth in gold and pearls by the Yuan, could do with more Pearl provinces

真珠 - Wikipedia

ja.m.wikipedia.org

(Japanese Wikipedia article on pearls and their history in Japan)

.
Japan has long been famous for its pearls. Freshwater pearls with holes in them, which are believed to have been threaded, have been excavated from Jomon-era sites in Hokkaido and Iwate Prefecture. In the "Biography of Wei Wei," it is written that Taino of Yamataikoku sent 5,000 white pearls to Cao Wei. The Nihon Shoki (Chronicles of Japan), Kojiki (Records of Ancient Matters), and Manyoshu (Anthology of Myriad Leaves) also mention pearls, and the Manyoshu includes 56 poems that mention pearls. In those days, pearls were called "tama," "matama," and "shiratama (white gem). In particular, Omura Bay in Hizen Province was a major source of natural pearls, as described in the "Hizen Province Fudoki. Emperor Keiko took from Hayaritsuhime [7] [8], Kenzusangen, and Yan Yan, who lived on the northern shore of the bay, three colored balls: a white ball, an Iso-no-kami itabidama (a ball of wood from the god Ishigami), and a beautiful ball. The emperor ordered that the land be called "Tamasonaukoku (Land of Tamashinaudama)" because of its abundance of jade, which is said to have given rise to the place name Sonogi. Those three colored balls became the sacred treasures of Ishigami Jingu Shrine.
In the Heian period "Engishiki" (Engi Shiki) "Zoshiki," it is described that the nobles sent their retainers to buy Tsushima pearls so actively that the people were confused.
Pearls were collected from Ago Bay in Shima Province (now eastern Mie Prefecture) and the Uwa Sea in Iyo Province (now Ehime Prefecture) from Akoya oysters, but they were smaller than pearls from other countries (foreign pearls).
Pearls were not only used as ornaments, but also had a magical meaning. Pearls are sometimes counted as one of the seven treasures of Buddhism, and pearls have been unearthed from temple sites as one of the ritual objects used in ground-breaking ceremonies when the temples were built. Because of their unique luster, they were also believed to be effective as a medicine for eye diseases and as an antidote [9].
The beauty of Japanese pearls was even introduced to Europe, and Columbus was said to have admired them.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

[matfer13]

@Roger Corominas I don't wanna be that guy but since no one asked how's the Balkan and Carpathia feedback going? Any date in sight?